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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 16 2012 06:50 GoldenH wrote:
The problem is really with scouting the zerg. You do not know if he is going to go roaches, or skip the roach and go for muta, or even get a third base. If the zerg can deny scouting completely (and he can), I feel like protoss has already lost.
I feel like I have to delay his first, however, even 1 base allins are no good as the zerg still has time to get his third up before I can hit him!
I can force a Zerg to build a few more lings and an extra queen, but that just means that my push has to come later, as I need to build up more units before I can push out, and the zerg has better creep spread to my base so he can counter attack as soon as I do.
I am honestly at a loss as to what can be done besides hope to win a base race against an opponent who has at least one extra base than me.
-_-; why are you talking about general zvp when the thread is obviously geared towards solving a very specific build
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No one here says Zerg OP.We say we are unexplored,and haven't seen a calculated build for PvZ or how the matchup needs to be played.
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I think we've always known that FFE builds have not been very good at pressuring, and not Zergs are just really taking advantage of that fact.
What about Gateway openings? Doing like a 1 Gate Stargate to deny the 3rd, or 1 base DT openings? I haven't done Gateway builds in the longest time so I can't remember how they pan out for the Zerg.
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The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find.
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2 base colo , forcefield the ramp and win.
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Italy12246 Posts
For what it's worth, i have tremenous success at low master's with a variation of NonY's build. I still gateway expand (off 2 gates, or 1 if i see slow gas) every pvz, but with a stalker as my second unit.
This gives me decent map control against anything but the fastest possible speed (5.30 ish), and often times i get to kill 2 lings directly, deny the watch tower for a bit, potentially deny a scout on the exact timing on my nexus (which in turn means he can't just attack at at 6.00 with a bunch of speedlings to deny it if i am going 1gate fe and my simicty and 3 warpgates aren't ready), plus i get 2 "indirect" drone kills because stalker often times means tech, which in turn forces 2 spores.
I always chrono out hallucination while getting ready to pressure with pure zealot/sentry (and the leftover stalker) off 4gates (i move out at 8.00 or so). I use a hallucinated phoenix to scout ahead of me and see his unit count. If he has no third i just tech up to stop whatever 2 base build he is doing, otherwise i head straight for the third like NonY does. I think he has killed off a fast zerg third every single time i have seen him do this against top gm players, including Darkforce, dKiller, and Slush, as well as against korean high master players. Delaying the zerg third for so long is enough to never be too far behind in supply.
My own pressure is weaker than his because he skips hallucinate, but i still reliably take out a third and at the very least slow him down enough that we will be even in the midgame.
I personally never really liked ffe because 1) you just can't get hallucination fast enough to change much in your build, and i feel like it's extremely good later on to check on things like upgrades, hive timing, tech, and to scout flanks, drops and runbys (more reliably than observers at least) 2) you have to commit a lot of resources to aggression blindly, and you can't really know if that aggression will work or not. I feel like a lot of FFE followups rely on the zerg screwing up more than anything (but then again i don't understand the build very well so eh) 3) i have heard a lot of top zergs (on streams and such) from teams such as eg and complexity saying that it's much harder to play against a gateway expand opening, so why would i do a build that they prefer to be up against?
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On March 16 2012 06:48 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:19 Fenneth wrote:Speaking as a somewhat notoriously whiny Protoss, I think you guys are being a bit whiny. In the recent MLG tournament, for example, PvZ was a 50/50 matchup, and more than half those Zerg wins are courtesy of the best player in the world. There are a ton of options to be explored further before we start crying imba. Does every thread have to devolve into balance talk? The vast majority of the people posting in this thread is not crying OP. There is a difference between "is it possible to get a 3rd out of a FFE" and "zerg is op." Everybody knows 2-base timings are strong and is currently the crux of this matchup.
if they are not whining about balance, then what? most of the comments i see here is "zerg ez race, make 3 base roach win"
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On March 16 2012 07:12 CandyHunterz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:48 Skyro wrote:On March 16 2012 06:19 Fenneth wrote:Speaking as a somewhat notoriously whiny Protoss, I think you guys are being a bit whiny. In the recent MLG tournament, for example, PvZ was a 50/50 matchup, and more than half those Zerg wins are courtesy of the best player in the world. There are a ton of options to be explored further before we start crying imba. Does every thread have to devolve into balance talk? The vast majority of the people posting in this thread is not crying OP. There is a difference between "is it possible to get a 3rd out of a FFE" and "zerg is op." Everybody knows 2-base timings are strong and is currently the crux of this matchup. if they are not whining about balance, then what? most of the comments i see here is "zerg ez race, make 3 base roach win"
Most of the comments I see here is constructive talk on what strats to do vs stephano-like build.
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I use a stargate to delay/harass the third into proxy pylon 9 gate +2 attack and blink. If I don't micro perfectly, I generally can't win. However, if I do micro adroitly, the build tends to give me a good chance at doing damage and winning the game.
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On March 16 2012 06:55 polishedturd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:50 GoldenH wrote:
The problem is really with scouting the zerg. You do not know if he is going to go roaches, or skip the roach and go for muta, or even get a third base. If the zerg can deny scouting completely (and he can), I feel like protoss has already lost.
I feel like I have to delay his first, however, even 1 base allins are no good as the zerg still has time to get his third up before I can hit him!
I can force a Zerg to build a few more lings and an extra queen, but that just means that my push has to come later, as I need to build up more units before I can push out, and the zerg has better creep spread to my base so he can counter attack as soon as I do.
I am honestly at a loss as to what can be done besides hope to win a base race against an opponent who has at least one extra base than me. -_-; why are you talking about general zvp when the thread is obviously geared towards solving a very specific build
Because no build exists in a vacuum. I am certain I could defeat this build if not for other factors. Even the OP has this problem, posting non-build related replays in his OP. We should in fact, be discussing Stephano's style of playing zerg, and because its arguable of wether this is his unique style seeing as how many top level zergs share the same style, this whole style of playing zerg in general, And because protoss responses have been so varied, frankly, the entire ZvP metagame is open for conversation.
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I think people are forgetting also, that Stephano is really, really good.
And I don't think you need absolutely perfect FFs to hold this at all, stop exaggerating. You guys are underestimating how cost effective sentry immortal with FFs is against Roach/Ling.
I really like the Titan replay, I think every Toss should check that out.
For those saying you can't scout the Zerg follow up, since you should be going sentry immortal anyway, there's this unit called an observer, and it's near invisible, and you can just sit in his main and scout his tech.... and make another one to see his army movement.
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On March 15 2012 16:35 kcdc wrote:
Seriously guys, I know how I could have executed better. But I was down 90 supply and 2 bases. Had I played better, I could have been down 70 supply and 2 bases. I wasn't going to win.
Im not looking to discuss my play in that game. I think beating maxed roaches at 12 min is going to take big strategic shifts--not refining an immortal all in. Give me your big ideas.
On a sidenote: We all know how supply inefficiënt roaches are, so you should not really be looking at supply count when facing a full roach army.
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On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find.
I agree that it looks great. Really great actually.
Rough build transcript:
FE (17 nex, 17 forge)
First gate builds zealot, sentry x3
40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade.
42/44 6:30 - 4 gates
48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas.
50/60 7:20 - Robo
52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus.
54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries.
64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd.
67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo)
76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink)
When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has:
61 workers (Never cuts probes).
+1 attack.
1 cannon
8 sentries
6 stalkers
5 zealots
2 immortals
1 observer
4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink.
He adds 5 more gateways 11:40.
Looks really solid.
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I don't think the Titan build works on a map where the third is harder to defend and Zerg can push both the natural and the third simultaneously.
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On March 16 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano. I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats. The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. I agree that it looks great. Really great actually. Rough build transcript: FE (17 nex, 17 forge) First gate builds zealot, sentry x3 40/44 6:10 - +1 attack upgrade. 42/44 6:30 - 4 gates 48/52 7:00 - 2 more gas. 50/60 7:20 - Robo 52/60 7:40 - 3rd nexus. 54/60 8:00 - Warp in 4 sentries. 64/68 8:25 - Cannon at 3rd. 67/76 8:40 - Observer (Then just immortals from robo) 76/84 9:00 - Twilight council (Blink) When z attacks at ~10:30 Titan has: 61 workers (Never cuts probes). +1 attack. 1 cannon 8 sentries 6 stalkers 5 zealots 2 immortals 1 observer 4 gates, 1 robo, twilight researching blink. He adds 5 more gateways 11:40. Looks really solid.
lol for a second i thought u guys were talking about vVvTitan, and i was like
....huh?
i guess this is roxkistitan?
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Really don't get what the consensual arguement is here. Stephano plays on the euro server where the competition for him is easy. I've watched all the games in that rep pack from korea and he gets rolled pretty frequently. Top player , but not up there yet with Code S
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To me, that looks like a combination of stephano and Ret's style while leaning closer to Ret. Stephano won't build roaches and actually focuses on ling production and teching.
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On March 16 2012 06:32 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 05:39 SaroVati wrote:
I'm confused as to discussing your PLAY in the game is "outside the scope of this thread". You gave us a replay to base off of, while consistently pointing out that the zerg is 80 supply ahead of you, but not criticize how you played it out? I'm not trying to start beef with you or something, but you can't just downplay the fact that your quality of play didn't affect the outcome of that game. It's the same reason why lots of micro-intensive all-ins are IMPOSSIBLE for lower level players. A strategy might work to counter another with really good control, but the lack of control doesn't just make that build suck.
As to your comments, you are constantly telling us to provide a replay with a zerg at X supply, doing the Stephano build, and losing in an open-field engagement. An open field engagement? That's like saying a colossus sucks vs. marines because when completely surrounded and spread out, the marines shit on a colossus. When you engage early game, a zealot in a choke is worth it's weight in GOLD vs. zerglings. If you get surrounded, your zealot loses cost for cost vs. zerglings, which it in theory counters. Notice the flaw in your arguement?
I'm a fellow protoss, hovering top 50 GM with lots of bonus pool, and play some of the tip top zergs all the time. I don't want to justify why this build is OP or not, I'd actually rather love if there WAS a counter to it. That being said, I won't blindly say that the build is impossible to hold when you put yourself in a very unfavourable position.
Still though, I think a few people have eluded to the fact that the main problem is the lack of pressure you put on your opponent. Aside from the fact I feel the zerg player utilized his macro mechanics better than you, I think you should've pressured somehow. I know this thread is about dealing with the specific strategy and not necessarily your specific build, but if that's the case please stop referencing the numbers OF the replay to emphasize your point then? My play in that game is outside the scope of the thread because the thread isn't about 2-base immortal all-in. I know I didn't do a good 2-base immortal all-in in that game, and ChaosKeeper properly crushed my poor play. This discussion is focused on how P can go about beating the Stephano-style play, and I posted that replay simplay as a reference for anyone who doesn't know what the Stephano-style roach build looks like. I can't tell for sure, but it sounds like you think immortal-sentry is a good answer. If so, post some replays and let us have a look. And the reason I say open field engagement is that the defender picks where the fight happens. In the case of a Protoss 2-base timing, the Zerg can always force the engagement in an open field assuming he didn't overdrone. If the Zerg is defending a 2-base timing and lets the engagement happen in a choke, the Zerg made a critical error, and the replay won't be a good example of the interaction between the builds. Of course, if P takes a third, he's the defender, and the fight should happen in a choke unless P screws up. So feel free to post replays where P takes a third and holds in chokes. As for pressure, I have lots of builds that pressure. The immortal/sentry build isn't very good for pressuring, but you'll note that I faked pressure in that game by advancing with zealots and dropping a pylon to fake a 4g +1 zealot timing. A warp prism would have been a little better. But at the end of the day, the Stephano build deflects pressure very well, and while I play and watch a ton of games, I'm not aware of any pressure that P can do to reliably keep himself within 50 supply. If you know, please share.
I don't have any specific replays of a zerg doing what you are describing anymore, I don't keep many of my reps, but the only game I have close to that is with me starting off with a cannon contain which won't represent the exact build, but the only rep I can find at the moment is this one, where he goes 4 gas and pumps roaches before my pressure hits:
http://drop.sc/134688
That being said, if any GM zerg player would like to play a few games to get some replays, I'd be glad to!
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On March 15 2012 16:18 Minkus wrote:
the thing is in game 1 you just did an immortal allin so i dont see why you are complaining. shouldnt allins be counterable?
On March 15 2012 16:25 TheNessman wrote:
Elfi's idea was to build up a large sentry force (he had like 10-15 sentries?) and then push out with some immortals and +1 with zealot reinforcement. I think it was like FFE, 3gates+robo, a few more gates and then push at 8 or 9 mins?
I think you guys are missing the point of the first replay... kcdc does a 3 robo all in that game because he's trying to showcase the "strongest possible anti-roach push" in the game... Which is the 5 gate robo 3 immortal with sentries and stalkers. A push that completely and utterly failed in a game where earlier warpgate/stargate pressure wouldn't have done a thing... or so kcdc is likely trying to imply.
(A hidden 5 gate robo is the build that elfi employed to beat Stehpano ONCE on a map that is generally great for it to begin with... elfi's version was slightly more sentry heavy than usual)
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On March 15 2012 16:00 Astro-Penguin wrote:
From personal experience the only real way to go about handling this now a days is just simply play perfectly which is kind of silly, I know that most Protoss seem to think FFE is the only way to play this match up but the more I see people try to macro with this opening the more I begin to see its weakness. Personally I know Nony thinks that FFE is bad, there might be some logic in there and perhaps that truly is the future, wish I could help more but my games are genuinely the same struggle.
No disrespect to Nony, but i would like to see more results from him, until I can trust his claims in Sc2...
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EPT
