On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
I am wondering if staying on two base and teching / making units is the best way to go. We all m is the roach build is designed to kill the tosses third so don't take a third before 10 min that's when you die.
On March 16 2012 04:38 Drowsy wrote: Pretty sure you could have straight up killed him in the Korhal game (the first you uploaded) at 11:07 if you had just ffed his much smaller army and then moved forward. 12:18 forcefields are terrible as well. I'm actually not sure what you were trying to do with your build... It was like some strange bastardization of the 1/1 3 immortal 1 prism push, but you added gates super late and then kinda dicked around with your force and never actually built the prism. This push should be arriving at his 3rd or natural around 11 minutes with a prism rallied.
Your 7 minute third with a fast robo is something I've experimented with as well. It will definitely play well against this sort of stephano style, but if the zerg simply adapts and moves into more of a DRG muta/roach/ling multi-pronged style, you're going to be dead meat on a lot of maps. Your opponent also did exactly what you wanted him to do by panicking and building a whole bunch of roaches and lings. If he just sees your third, drones up to 70, throws up an infestation pit, and gets very fast broodlords you're probably also going to be in trouble.
I honestly think you don't need any major strategic shifts. You need to forcefield a lot better and refine your immortal allin. It's not like you want to play on 3 bases and deal with infestor bl and roll the dice on vortexes anyway so fck it.
Discussing my play in that game is outside the scope of this thread, but I was planning to all-in at 3 immortals. Then I saw he had a big army right outside my base and leaving my base at 3 immortals would have lost me too many sentries, so I waited on a 4th immortal with some extra stalker cover for my sentries. At 4 immortals, I tried to get up into the choke along the to attack into his third along the side path, but he caught me off guard by engaging me on my half of the map in a completely open area. My forcefields weren't good, but I'd already lost the game by that point.
If you watch the Elfi game that I linked in the OP, the game plays out more or less the same. Elfi wanted to all-in off 3 immortals, but Stephano brought the fight to Elfi's side of the map and forced Elfi to delay the push. Elfi had better forcefields and much better execution overall, so he held on a little longer, but the game wasn't close. Despite going with an all-in that's designed to beat 3-base roach, Elfi's attack never even made it to the mid-point of the map.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 02:10 Fenneth wrote:
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
I am wondering if staying on two base and teching / making units is the best way to go. We all m is the roach build is designed to kill the tosses third so don't take a third before 10 min that's when you die.
The later you take the third, the bigger the food deficit will be when you're defending the third--at least until Z hits the 200 supply cap, at which point you can catch up a bit. The logic with a 7 or 8 minute third is that you'll have a bigger army when Z attacks at 12 minutes.
That's the logic anyway. It may turn out that you just can't take a third until you have an army that can defend maxed roaches.
God forbid that one of the most efficient zerg builds is finally out there.. Not like protoss has had detailed build orders from koreans for months. oh wait they did, time for protoss to actually not steal korean build orders
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 02:10 Fenneth wrote:
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
I am wondering if staying on two base and teching / making units is the best way to go. We all m is the roach build is designed to kill the tosses third so don't take a third before 10 min that's when you die.
The later you take the third, the bigger the food deficit will be when you're defending the third--at least until Z hits the 200 supply cap, at which point you can catch up a bit. The logic with a 7 or 8 minute third is that you'll have a bigger army when Z attacks at 12 minutes.
That's the logic anyway. It may turn out that you just can't take a third until you have an army that can defend maxed roaches.
an additional danger is that on some maps with open nats its fairly easy just to straight-up bust a two-basing protoss who is delaying his third, especially if he opened with a single stargate or you hit before there is a significant immortal presence
not the most reliable play from the zerg point of view, but sometimes its funny to watch toss struggle to hold off against a bunch of herpderp roaches
On March 16 2012 04:38 Drowsy wrote: Pretty sure you could have straight up killed him in the Korhal game (the first you uploaded) at 11:07 if you had just ffed his much smaller army and then moved forward. 12:18 forcefields are terrible as well. I'm actually not sure what you were trying to do with your build... It was like some strange bastardization of the 1/1 3 immortal 1 prism push, but you added gates super late and then kinda dicked around with your force and never actually built the prism. This push should be arriving at his 3rd or natural around 11 minutes with a prism rallied.
Your 7 minute third with a fast robo is something I've experimented with as well. It will definitely play well against this sort of stephano style, but if the zerg simply adapts and moves into more of a DRG muta/roach/ling multi-pronged style, you're going to be dead meat on a lot of maps. Your opponent also did exactly what you wanted him to do by panicking and building a whole bunch of roaches and lings. If he just sees your third, drones up to 70, throws up an infestation pit, and gets very fast broodlords you're probably also going to be in trouble.
I honestly think you don't need any major strategic shifts. You need to forcefield a lot better and refine your immortal allin. It's not like you want to play on 3 bases and deal with infestor bl and roll the dice on vortexes anyway so fck it.
Discussing my play in that game is outside the scope of this thread, but I was planning to all-in at 3 immortals. Then I saw he had a big army right outside my base and leaving my base at 3 immortals would have lost me too many sentries, so I waited on a 4th immortal with some extra stalker cover for my sentries. At 4 immortals, I tried to get up into the choke along the to attack into his third along the side path, but he caught me off guard by engaging me on my half of the map in a completely open area. My forcefields weren't good, but I'd already lost the game by that point.
If you watch the Elfi game that I linked in the OP, the game plays out more or less the same. Elfi wanted to all-in off 3 immortals, but Stephano brought the fight to Elfi's side of the map and forced Elfi to delay the push. Elfi had better forcefields and much better execution overall, so he held on a little longer, but the game wasn't close. Despite going with an all-in that's designed to beat 3-base roach, Elfi's attack never even made it to the mid-point of the map.
Watching it now. I can see what you mean and everything, but there were a lot of other confounding variables. Elfi went prism before the 3 immortals which was going to delay his push, lost a sentry pointlessly dropping it into lings, and then lost an immortal at his front from mis-microing. I think if he'd simply gone prism after 3 immortals and had those 3 sentries at his natural instead of flying around, he could have easily deflected the few units stephano had sent to his front and pushed in time.
I guess regardless of what could have or should have happened, it is kinda messed up that a push that's designed to beat 3 base roach can be put on the defensive by 3 base roach like it did in that game.
I feel like midgame Protoss vs Zerg, should ALWAYS be blink stalkers unless they go Infestors. Of course you'll need good blink micro but you'll be surprised how well a Blink Stalker + Sentry ball deals with Roaches.
You went robo and I feel like robo builds are bad for two reasons. 1. They're so expensive and produce so slow and if you choose to go Colo, they can just throw shit at you to keep the ball small. 2. You're incredibly far behind if they make a muta switch.
You almost never see Protoss in tournaments ever open Colo anymore. Blink allows Protoss to deal with the 200/200 Roach ball so much easier and with good micro, you will lose few Stalkers. Also, you'll have blink if they decide to do a muta switch.
the only thing that seems to work consistently for me but is gimmicky as fuck is dt drop in the main to snipe the lair and a pylon near this third to snipe that. Then, immediately take a third myself and turtle the fuck up and max out. Z either has to all in (but will fail since u have dts and u can easily snipe overseer) or try to catchup.
On March 16 2012 05:05 K3Nyy wrote: I feel like midgame Protoss vs Zerg, should ALWAYS be blink stalkers unless they go Infestors. Of course you'll need good blink micro but you'll be surprised how well a Blink Stalker + Sentry ball deals with Roaches.
You went robo and I feel like robo builds are bad for two reasons. 1. They're so expensive and produce so slow and if you choose to go Colo, they can just throw shit at you to keep the ball small. 2. You're incredibly far behind if they make a muta switch.
You almost never see Protoss in tournaments ever open Colo anymore. Blink allows Protoss to deal with the 200/200 Roach ball so much easier and with good micro, you will lose few Stalkers. Also, you'll have blink if they decide to do a muta switch.
lolno. The immortal allin is wayyy stronger than blink allin for 2 big reasons: burrow and spinecrawlers. The push he did is a very common one and the colossus thing is usually not part of it. You should be hitting with it around 11:00, well before mutas.
I dont really know if a Protoss macro build can really hit before HoTS,a reliable one i mean. Protoss builds in PVT are really calculated for example (Gate->Expo->Robo->2Forges),with easy pokes u define what the terran is doing. PvZ on the other hand seeems more like,i do that ,i do that,and is diffeerent every game.Its not like its something really calculated
On March 16 2012 05:20 Crying wrote: I dont really know if a Protoss macro build can really hit before HoTS,a reliable one i mean. Protoss builds in PVT are really calculated for example (Gate->Expo->Robo->2Forges),with easy pokes u define what the terran is doing. PvZ on the other hand seeems more like,i do that ,i do that,and is diffeerent every game.Its not like its something really calculated
I think it can be calculated. Since every Z is taking third before gas, you can scout exactly what they're doing. As soon as you see no gas at 3:30, you know everything they'll build up to 8 minutes.
The issue isn't a lack of scouting or that Z's timings are unpredictable. Right now, you come into the game knowing what Z will do--the challenge is simply coming up with something that works against it.
This is indeed very hard to deal with. I like this build White-Ra used during the ASUS ROG Stars Invite Showmatch against IdrA which revolves around a fast 7:30 Nexus and a warp prism timing hitting at 9:30 with 6 gates(more possible) and +1 to divert as many roaches as possible. White-Ra also went for a quick second robo after that.
If he overcommits roaches on defending the warp prism I can usually hold and if he undercommits you can trade his main or third for your third. If he builds a ton of static defenses you're not in a bad shape worker-wise and can usually still snipe some buildings.
Didn't WhiteRa revolutionize PvZ before Destiny Made Ling/Infestor? I mean VoidRay/Colossus was everygame at some point,and it was almost impossible to beat lategame(I've been beaten by bling/ultra/ling/festor/ and then Destiny made the Ling/Festor and that destroyed totally that build?
If Fungals didn't catch Air Zerg will have no chance to beat Protoss.Ever. I'd open 2 stargate phoenix every game,and harass the zerg ALOT I still think Scourge was going to be better than having the Corruptor (Mutalisk morph in BL)
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
I've been watching sentry/immortal games, and it seems that they mostly work when Z switches to army production too late and doesn't have enough army to force a fight in the open areas in the middle of the map. By the time Z has enough army to fight, P is already in Z's third and abusing forcefields.
But that's just overdroning. Check out this VOD to see how easily Z wins if he switches to army production at 60 drones.
If Z produces army early, they can force the fight in open areas on P's side of the map with plenty of time to remax. Compare that replay to this one from the same set:
Here, Stephano overdrones and can't engage the sentry/immortal army before it's in his third.
Pretty sure Stephano said he had just not seen that and responded incorrectly, he tried it the game after again and P got crushed.
I still think there alot for the maps to be explored,i mean its still retarded to have close position on any map no exceptions,like even Antiga Shipyard close are ridiclous in PvZ,Entombed Valley is the same,the protoss just needs to 2base. Calm before the Storm Map for instance is great macro map,i still think people need to make LARGE MAPS in order for All ins and retarded timings to be removed (partially atleast) and for the game to be more macro oriented,mechanically oriented and strategy oriented,than some gimmicky timings. For instance PvZ in BW was not that bad because there was a big gap to exploit before.There was no tier 1.5 unit that hits really hard,there were only hydras and lings (and later lurks) for instance imagine zerg having no roaches.I mean its really cost-efficient unit,really easy mass-able.Protoss could exploit some things in BW like surviving solely on storm(cos really every zerg unit was dying to storm,except the ultralisk) In Sc2 when u make storm u get punished with burrowed roaches+5bases.
On March 16 2012 04:38 Drowsy wrote: Pretty sure you could have straight up killed him in the Korhal game (the first you uploaded) at 11:07 if you had just ffed his much smaller army and then moved forward. 12:18 forcefields are terrible as well. I'm actually not sure what you were trying to do with your build... It was like some strange bastardization of the 1/1 3 immortal 1 prism push, but you added gates super late and then kinda dicked around with your force and never actually built the prism. This push should be arriving at his 3rd or natural around 11 minutes with a prism rallied.
Your 7 minute third with a fast robo is something I've experimented with as well. It will definitely play well against this sort of stephano style, but if the zerg simply adapts and moves into more of a DRG muta/roach/ling multi-pronged style, you're going to be dead meat on a lot of maps. Your opponent also did exactly what you wanted him to do by panicking and building a whole bunch of roaches and lings. If he just sees your third, drones up to 70, throws up an infestation pit, and gets very fast broodlords you're probably also going to be in trouble.
I honestly think you don't need any major strategic shifts. You need to forcefield a lot better and refine your immortal allin. It's not like you want to play on 3 bases and deal with infestor bl and roll the dice on vortexes anyway so fck it.
Discussing my play in that game is outside the scope of this thread, but I was planning to all-in at 3 immortals. Then I saw he had a big army right outside my base and leaving my base at 3 immortals would have lost me too many sentries, so I waited on a 4th immortal with some extra stalker cover for my sentries. At 4 immortals, I tried to get up into the choke along the to attack into his third along the side path, but he caught me off guard by engaging me on my half of the map in a completely open area. My forcefields weren't good, but I'd already lost the game by that point.
If you watch the Elfi game that I linked in the OP, the game plays out more or less the same. Elfi wanted to all-in off 3 immortals, but Stephano brought the fight to Elfi's side of the map and forced Elfi to delay the push. Elfi had better forcefields and much better execution overall, so he held on a little longer, but the game wasn't close. Despite going with an all-in that's designed to beat 3-base roach, Elfi's attack never even made it to the mid-point of the map.
I'm confused as to discussing your PLAY in the game is "outside the scope of this thread". You gave us a replay to base off of, while consistently pointing out that the zerg is 80 supply ahead of you, but not criticize how you played it out? I'm not trying to start beef with you or something, but you can't just downplay the fact that your quality of play didn't affect the outcome of that game. It's the same reason why lots of micro-intensive all-ins are IMPOSSIBLE for lower level players. A strategy might work to counter another with really good control, but the lack of control doesn't just make that build suck.
As to your comments, you are constantly telling us to provide a replay with a zerg at X supply, doing the Stephano build, and losing in an open-field engagement. An open field engagement? That's like saying a colossus sucks vs. marines because when completely surrounded and spread out, the marines shit on a colossus. When you engage early game, a zealot in a choke is worth it's weight in GOLD vs. zerglings. If you get surrounded, your zealot loses cost for cost vs. zerglings, which it in theory counters. Notice the flaw in your arguement?
I'm a fellow protoss, hovering top 50 GM with lots of bonus pool, and play some of the tip top zergs all the time. I don't want to justify why this build is OP or not, I'd actually rather love if there WAS a counter to it. That being said, I won't blindly say that the build is impossible to hold when you put yourself in a very unfavourable position.
Still though, I think a few people have eluded to the fact that the main problem is the lack of pressure you put on your opponent. Aside from the fact I feel the zerg player utilized his macro mechanics better than you, I think you should've pressured somehow. I know this thread is about dealing with the specific strategy and not necessarily your specific build, but if that's the case please stop referencing the numbers OF the replay to emphasize your point then?
I really do not know why so many people put so much stock into the stephano/elfi game. First of all I think most can agree that stephano is a better player, and was playing in his best match-up (ZvP), and elfi STILL took a game off him. If anything it shows the power of the 3 immortal timing, not that's it's weak and easily crushed or anything of the sort. So while stephano smashed it in game 3 it was a because it was a tourney Bo3 match and stephano knew exactly what was coming. 3 Immortal timing is still a great ladder build, you just need to have varied 2-base timings if you actually play in BoX matches in tourneys regularly.
On March 16 2012 05:29 Serdiuk wrote: This is indeed very hard to deal with. I like this build White-Ra used during the ASUS ROG Stars Invite Showmatch against IdrA which revolves around a fast 7:30 Nexus and a warp prism timing hitting at 9:30 with 6 gates(more possible) and +1 to divert as many roaches as possible. White-Ra also went for a quick second robo after that.
If he overcommits roaches on defending the warp prism I can usually hold and if he undercommits you can trade his main or third for your third. If he builds a ton of static defenses you're not in a bad shape worker-wise and can usually still snipe some buildings.
On maps where the third is hard to defend this build isn't quite as effective though and I'm equally at a loss.
again, this isn't the stephano build mentioned in the OP. idra is definitely trying to drone past 60 here, and goes for muta tech instead of a timing vs a third base. the openings are similar, but IMO it's because idra is playing safely instead of gearing up for a speed roach timing.
in fact if you look at the game in the OP, you can see that elfi actually does go for the warp prism drop at 9ish minutes. it fails, he dies to 4sr.
There's something I noticed while reading the thread which actually kinda frightened me, it's that now, Protoss seems to give up trying to reach late-game and almost do ONLY 2 bases all-in. In my opinion, it's an indication that something is clearly wrong. The Stephano Style reminds me the 1/1/1 era, an easy-to-pull build, freaking effective, and VERY hard to pull-off. Some koreans managed to succeed at holding it, and they were at the top (MC vs Puma for exemple), which means, insane micro, insane macro, etc...From the replays that you've shown, you need to throw down absolutely perfect forcefields if you want to survive (and even with that, it's almost sure you'll die anyway). But actually, the build is getting very popular even at low leagues, where 99% of protoss land perfect forcefields by a one-time-luck shot. You need to have insane micro to defend against a build that is easy to execute, and doesn't require too many micro (I think that at low/mid platevery zrg have enough micro to do so), so by the time someone (and by someone I mean pro player) find a way that isn't too hard to pull, low leagues players will get absolutely trashed in almost every PvZ they'll play. For the 1/1/1, people started to stop abusing it after the 2s rax nerf, so in my opinion, PvZ winrate will decrease alot for the next months, nerf or not.
Another thing that I don't like is that nowadays, like some people pointed it here, PvZ is about 2 bases all-in, or 2 (sometimes 3) bases turtle into huge deathball. These seems to be the only options, since FFE is starting, like in BW, to be the only viable build. Moreover, 2 bases all-in is getting crushed by this mass roach build, which give us the option to just turtle (and some people stated that it's a bad idea because you expose yourself to a huge techswitch which will kill you). And with Stephano Style, I think that even with FFE, Protoss have to play the whole game behind, which is REALLY weird, and imo, imbalanced.
EPT
