On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote: People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
And what can Zerg do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a Protoss?
I mean seriously, we're talking about a strat that just hit mainstream over the last few weeks or so, and suddenly the match up is screwed so badly again? Yeah, let's ignore the graphs saying PvZ was even internationally and heavily Toss favored in Korea. Because Stephano is destroying ladder Protosses.
Same standard TL reaction to a new strat: match up is retarded, imba, etc.
5/6 phoenixes sounds like an overcomittment early game. It means your ground army is tiny, so a strong push while your energy is low and you're screwed. Even with phoenixes there, roach/hydra in enough numbers and you'll get broken, especially if they hit your third just as it finishes @12/13 minutes.
On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote: People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
well, nothing you can do before 8:30 with FFE, thats right. but after that, you have to do at least SOMETHING. 1 voidray, some heavier airharass, a warpprism harass, some zealot pressure - you have to do sth to force units before them having 80 drones, so they at least get to that point 2 minutes later. OR you are creative and go with a 1 gate expo build with 1 gas, apply pressure with 2 stalkers and 1 zealot while taking the expo with forge/cannon/ 2more gates. at least that leaves the Z in the dark.
Of course. But the zerg-mechanics are designed to give zerg an inherent advantage when they can drone up early - which was prevented by the mere threat of 4 gate. You could go 3 gate exp, macro up and be only a little bit behind. Now you FFE and end up with -60/70 supply down...EVERY GAME.
This isn't a problem of unit A or B being OP, but a problem of general game design. If zerg can take a quick third uncontested, then everything else gets exacerbated. Zerg can drone up much more heavily than they are supposed to. They can mass roaches much more quickly. They can mass mutas much more quickly.
One or two things must happen: either the game goes back to 1/3 gate expo, or protoss gets a reliable good harass-unit that can punish droning zergs without sacrificing too much economy and safety (read: wait for HotS...) I doubt that protoss will be able to find a reliable answer with FFE.
On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote: People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
And what can Zerg do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a Protoss?
I mean seriously, we're talking about a strat that just hit mainstream over the last few weeks or so, and suddenly the match up is screwed so badly again? Yeah, let's ignore the graphs saying PvZ was even internationally and heavily Toss favored in Korea. Because Stephano is destroying ladder Protosses.
Same standard TL reaction to a new strat: match up is retarded, imba, etc.
Please being honest, why you post stuff like that in a protoss strategy thread? You're adding nothing, and you even misslead in some of your posts.
On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote: People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
And what can Zerg do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a Protoss?
I mean seriously, we're talking about a strat that just hit mainstream over the last few weeks or so, and suddenly the match up is screwed so badly again? Yeah, let's ignore the graphs saying PvZ was even internationally and heavily Toss favored in Korea. Because Stephano is destroying ladder Protosses.
Same standard TL reaction to a new strat: match up is retarded, imba, etc.
Please being honest, why you post stuff like that in a protoss strategy thread? You're adding nothing, and you even misslead in some of your posts.
Sorry, I mistook the Huk 8 gate build for a different all in, since you're so caught up on that.
I do believe I've provided more credible solutions towards the problem than you have, seeing as you're encouraging Protosses to do exactly what they shouldn't.
I cant seem to hold 2 base all ins from Toss with this build, theres an extreme sweet spot at the 9 minute mark, where i have minimal creep spread/no speed on lings or roach, no upgrade, and I am just hitting my last round of drones before I start insane unit production. If they deny Ovie scout then im hurting.
Yea, this is what im talking about, If the P hits right before the build really gets cooking its GG. This is why Stephano now seems to favor quick late game play.
On March 16 2012 03:40 Larkin wrote: 5/6 phoenixes sounds like an overcomittment early game. It means your ground army is tiny, so a strong push while your energy is low and you're screwed. Even with phoenixes there, roach/hydra in enough numbers and you'll get broken, especially if they hit your third just as it finishes @12/13 minutes.
Ofcourse that's true, that's why you get 5-6 sentries while getting the phoenixes to have enough FF. It sounds like a lot of gas when you factor in the phoenixes and yes that's true.
I think sniping queens would slow down their macro a lot, if you can go for drone kills that would be also fine but I think queens should be the top priority. Kill the queens and their larve production will stumble. That might give you the time to be prepared for the doom push.
Korean Protoss seem to do very well with really early thirds. Personally I don't think doing a push against a 3 hatch>gas zerg is any good at all, though sometimes zergs do screw up and die. It's just too easy to surround and kill a 2 base protoss army as a zerg (I do think this game is a bad one to try to prove your point with, the point of stephano's build is to be really good versus pressure). When going FFE I think you need to find the most efficient way of taking a safe third as fast as possible and playing defensively until you can start pushing out with colossus to take a fourth, then get your archons/mothership (assuming he's going mass roaches, obviously if he's doing something like super fast hive, broodlords can give you a strugglebear time); but if zerg is going to commit so heavily to roaches, I think you have a good time to make a nice move on mid with a few immortals and colossus with range to secure a fourth and go into your mothership lategame from there.
However, I think the best way to play is to go gateway epand. Zerg can't instantly get the number of drones they want and just find the right order of shit to kill you. I think NonY has been on the right mindset all along; as a zerg, I find it much more difficult to play versus gate core openings than FFE, though admittedly it could be the smaller pool of people doing it.
On March 16 2012 03:51 XXXSmOke wrote: I cant seem to hold 2 base all ins from Toss with this build, theres an extreme sweet spot at the 9 minute mark, where i have minimal creep spread/no speed on lings or roach, no upgrade, and I am just hitting my last round of drones before I start insane unit production. If they deny Ovie scout then im hurting.
you should not be droning at all that late with this build. your last drones should be coming out about a minute before. you can see in the first game vs MC that the gateway pressure at 9 minutes did jack shit. Check the game vs elfi in the OP as well, at 9 minutes there are 7 roaches producing, no drones. Notice in the second game vs MC that Stephano cuts drones at 8:39, but loses to a blink allin on antiga (also remember it's MC playing, and he's always had exceptional control), which can be difficult to hold for zerg. It was still a close engagement however, meaning it's not a reliable way to play vs the style.
i think this specific build is really map dependent. when i try it on a map with an easy 3rd (like the new map with the rocks outside your nat.) protoss holds it fairly easily with cannons, sentries, and immortals.
immortals should generally do the job as long as you make sure you have cannons or zealots ready to counter lings.
On March 16 2012 04:02 Arisen wrote: Korean Protoss seem to do very well with really early thirds. Personally I don't think doing a push against a 3 hatch>gas zerg is any good at all, though sometimes zergs do screw up and die. It's just too easy to surround and kill a 2 base protoss army as a zerg (I do think this game is a bad one to try to prove your point with, the point of stephano's build is to be really good versus pressure). When going FFE I think you need to find the most efficient way of taking a safe third as fast as possible and playing defensively until you can start pushing out with colossus to take a fourth, then get your archons/mothership (assuming he's going mass roaches, obviously if he's doing something like super fast hive, broodlords can give you a strugglebear time); but if zerg is going to commit so heavily to roaches, I think you have a good time to make a nice move on mid with a few immortals and colossus with range to secure a fourth and go into your mothership lategame from there.
However, I think the best way to play is to go gateway epand. Zerg can't instantly get the number of drones they want and just find the right order of shit to kill you. I think NonY has been on the right mindset all along; as a zerg, I find it much more difficult to play versus gate core openings than FFE, though admittedly it could be the smaller pool of people doing it.
I think it really depends on the map also. For example on Metalopolis or even Shakuras, good luck taking an early third to hold the 12 min zerg roach max. Protoss at the GSL don't play on bad maps... except on Dual Sight and Crossfire, and we all know what happens most of the time to them on these maps.
On March 16 2012 04:02 Arisen wrote: Korean Protoss seem to do very well with really early thirds. Personally I don't think doing a push against a 3 hatch>gas zerg is any good at all, though sometimes zergs do screw up and die. It's just too easy to surround and kill a 2 base protoss army as a zerg (I do think this game is a bad one to try to prove your point with, the point of stephano's build is to be really good versus pressure). When going FFE I think you need to find the most efficient way of taking a safe third as fast as possible and playing defensively until you can start pushing out with colossus to take a fourth, then get your archons/mothership (assuming he's going mass roaches, obviously if he's doing something like super fast hive, broodlords can give you a strugglebear time); but if zerg is going to commit so heavily to roaches, I think you have a good time to make a nice move on mid with a few immortals and colossus with range to secure a fourth and go into your mothership lategame from there.
However, I think the best way to play is to go gateway epand. Zerg can't instantly get the number of drones they want and just find the right order of shit to kill you. I think NonY has been on the right mindset all along; as a zerg, I find it much more difficult to play versus gate core openings than FFE, though admittedly it could be the smaller pool of people doing it.
I think it really depends on the map also. For example on Metalopolis or even Shakuras, good luck taking an early third to hold the 12 min zerg roach max. Protoss at the GSL don't play on bad maps... except on Dual Sight and Crossfire, and we all know what happens most of the time to them on these maps.
Yeah, some maps are harder to secure a third base on early than others, but it is possible.
you need to apply a strong 2 base pressure with healthy amount of sentries around 8 or 9 minutes. You cannot let a Zerg drone happily on 3 bases for 10 minutes without doing any damage. As some posters mentioned before watching and copying protosses like MC, Genius and Parting (who does put up a decent fight vs. DRG) will definitely help you out alot. Heck, even Naniwa does very early pressure against Zergs for the very same reason.
On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote: People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
And what can Zerg do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a Protoss?
I mean seriously, we're talking about a strat that just hit mainstream over the last few weeks or so, and suddenly the match up is screwed so badly again? Yeah, let's ignore the graphs saying PvZ was even internationally and heavily Toss favored in Korea. Because Stephano is destroying ladder Protosses.
Same standard TL reaction to a new strat: match up is retarded, imba, etc.
Yeah,couldnt have said it better,exactly feel like the same.Also many zergs stated that ZvP is their worst but still everyone is going crazy here.
On March 16 2012 04:20 ref4 wrote: you need to apply a strong 2 base pressure with healthy amount of sentries around 8 or 9 minutes. You cannot let a Zerg drone happily on 3 bases for 10 minutes without doing any damage. As some posters mentioned before watching and copying protosses like MC, Genius and Parting (who does put up a decent fight vs. DRG) will definitely help you out alot. Heck, even Naniwa does very early pressure against Zergs for the very same reason.
again, im not sure why you'd suggest a two base timing vs a zerg with early gases/warren. you specifically bring up DRG as an example, but he actually tends to gas later than most zergs in the matchup, completely different style to stephano's
In that first game, Stephano did something of a tweener build with just too little army to deny MC's third. And Stephano still should have won the game since he had BL+infestor against blink stalker, but Stephano narrowly lost with a terrible engagement.
With all due credit to MC's control and positioning which won him the game, I definitely wasn't impressed with MC's build order. I think the build put MC at a substantial disadvantage that he happened to overcome in that game.
yeah i dont see how DRG survives with getting gas soo late. it must be something in his scouting that tells him really early that he can get really late gas.
Pretty sure you could have straight up killed him in the Korhal game (the first you uploaded) at 11:07 if you had just ffed his much smaller army and then moved forward. 12:18 forcefields are terrible as well. I'm actually not sure what you were trying to do with your build... It was like some strange bastardization of the 1/1 3 immortal 1 prism push, but you added gates super late and then kinda dicked around with your force and never actually built the prism. This push should be arriving at his 3rd or natural around 11 minutes with a prism rallied.
Your 7 minute third with a fast robo is something I've experimented with as well. It will definitely play well against this sort of stephano style, but if the zerg simply adapts and moves into more of a DRG muta/roach/ling multi-pronged style, you're going to be dead meat on a lot of maps. Your opponent also did exactly what you wanted him to do by panicking and building a whole bunch of roaches and lings. If he just sees your third, drones up to 70, throws up an infestation pit, and gets very fast broodlords you're probably also going to be in trouble.
I honestly think you don't need any major strategic shifts. You need to forcefield a lot better and refine your immortal allin. It's not like you want to play on 3 bases and deal with infestor bl and roll the dice on vortexes anyway so fck it.
EPT
