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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 16 2012 02:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:37 aebriol wrote:On March 16 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 02:03 aebriol wrote:On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote:
To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses? People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure. We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit). You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds). Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence? On March 16 2012 02:10 Fenneth wrote:On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote:
To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base all in, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself? http://drop.sc/134585 I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit. Well I dunno, you seemed to have completely misunderstood what was said, so I thought I should clarify. 2 base pressure (which you said) implies the intention of transitioning, and is something completely different from 2 base committed all in with no obvious transitioning path available. The builds work out very differently. You should know this. If you don't know the difference, then you really need to work on your builds. And that's not me being mean, that's just because you execute those two different build types very ,very differently. And you are guessing wrong about the build Titan use in the posted game. It's a 4 gate into 7:40 3rd nexus, with robotics, and holding pressure with a combination of unit control (in particular, immortal and forcefields), sim city, and decision making. In response to the first part, yes, I know what an all-in is. Sorry if my term 'pressure' confused you--I was trying to address as wide a group of builds as possible. I'd consider a 2-base all-in to fall into the broader category of 2-base pressure. 7 or 8 minute third with some gates and a robo is exactly the type of build I think might stand a fighting chance. Looking forward to checking it out.
My opinion is that Stephano's build is the weakest to committed 2 base all in, and the strongest against non-committed 2 base pressure, which was why I wanted to focus on the difference.
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On March 16 2012 02:51 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 01:07 FGL wrote:On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote:
1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air
blink stalkers with sim city to blink around
immortals
any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack. The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes. Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural 8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg. here is the problem as I see it. Sure you can get an army out to deal with a 3 hatch roach zerg BUT by the time you have that army (immortal, FF, blink stalkers , + 2) the zergs econ and tech will be so disgusting that he will just roll you over with hive tech. By the time you have the army to secure that third base against near max roach army you will be so far from a mothership+archons (as you will not have the additional 2 gas for a long time) that BL/infestor/spine is unbeatable with your "midgame" army.... Thus we see the trend of a players dieing trying to get up that third or two base timings to kill the zergs third..... The only thing I've been making work against zerg is a damn near pure sg play to help me take a third uncontested after the FFE. Essentially you try and dictate their composition by forcing anti air units out. Things that counter it, drops (nydus also) and early roach allins (which you typically don't see with zergs going for fast thirds) ..... At my skill lvl most zergs do one of two things. Overreact to the sg (spores, faster spire/infestation pit or even hyrdas). I've found it actually work to your advantage if they overcompensate for the sg play as they may have enough to contest your dominance in the skies but will likewise lack the ground army to actually kill your bases which should have cannons out the wazoo (picture a muta/ling zerg player hiding behind spines and doing his best to keep you in your base). on the flip side if they don't overreact you are very vulnerable to being worn down by mass roaches.... Think about Genius vs DRG where on entombed he went dbl sg phx into carrier. I believe that DRG got lucky by blind countering the bld but it has potential!
If he's going to go to 200/200 roaches with ~60 drones there's no way he can afford to go hive tech reasonably quickly. It all comes down to how well you can defend his aggression. If you take too much damage you'll spend all your resources on rebuilding which gives him the time needed for hive but if you defend it with minimal losses he will be behind. This is the time to take your fourth/get aggressive/teching to stargate/mothership. A stalker immoratl sentry army will demolish a roach one once you have critical mass and enough ff energy. Usually at around 160 supply you can start to move out
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I find it quite funny that both sides consider the other imba. MC has said that pvz is easy and favors toss :p
That said as a zerg player the hardest thing as already mentioned is ff. Blink/immortal/whatever your cup of tea is should be able to snipe the third if you can ff correctly. Make your sents early on and bank 200. (I've found it hardest to beat toss players that make an extra two or three sents.) Roach ling can engage if it there are ff.
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On March 16 2012 02:54 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 01:21 aebriol wrote:
Not realizing that the specific build you are playing against, is optimized to beat any protoss playing trying to safely get to the late game.
I wanted to quote this cose is one of the most overlooked phrases in the post. Imo, Stephano is right. Due to race desing, Z is allowed to get a huge eco lead taking just a few of of precautions (aka easy build order responses). Then Z have much more production that P, and cheaper efficent units with faster production. Yeah, all that together sounds like imbalance. And, sadly for us, Z's figured all this out. So, playing to beat a in eco and production a race designed for that, is wrong. Non-pro z's only need to learn the BO, practice the timings, and learn mr stephano reactions to every P threat, and they are good to go into "eco superiority/roach 1a aka zero micro/tech transition" heaven. If you, P player, want the best build to match that kind of producition, eco, and sheer force, then, indeed, go and watch the Genius vs Drg Game 1 at Daybreak of GSL season 1 finals. The catch? You need to outplay badly your opponent, as Genius did, microing like a god to the roach attack in 2 fronts, and multi tasking like a madman with his phoenixes; while the z do not need to do mayor roach micro and keep macroing. Then, what to do? The best answer imo is a solid push (not just pressure) to take down the 3rd (and maybe take the game). What kind of push? Any one that hit between 8 and 10 minute. Options? 8 gate, 7 gate, blink, immorthal, stargate, depending the map. For example, on antiga or C-kingdom the 3rd makes a very good choke for any sentry based push. On tal darim, i was using a large variety, but now z's have learned. So now i pick a 7-8 gate huk style, super fast, cose the map is really open. Stargate allows to blind the z, that is worth of mencion too. Also, in any of the timings, fake pressure is a must. Moving a inital force of 2 or 3 units with a pylon, also a fake pylon in a visible spot for the z, all this is good to force unefficient larvae production (MC do this a LOT in his games) Also gate-expo are pretty interesting to use now that most z's are using this style. I agree with Nony, 4g sentry pressure can secure a hatch kill, because z's are not used to play this style and overdrone following the actual zvp trend. "Speedling shower" can be tricky but is a pretty winnable scenario with good ff control, cose z will be behind. I feel your pain kcdc, we all do : ( I'll love to play safe macro again!!
This is so, so wrong.
The play style is DESIGNED to destroy early 2 base timings, or light pressure builds --> third bases. You can bring your Huk 8 gate and meet my 120 supply of roach/ling, thank you very much free win. You have to do a DEDICATED sentry immortal attack at like the 14 minute mark, THEN take a third behind that, or you can try what Titan did in that replay posted on the last page and use early FFs, good cannon placement, and good immortal control to defend your fast third.
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You want a shit ton of immortals, sentries and zealots. Stalkers/blink has to come later cause it's gas you could spend on another immortal, and +1 speed roaches dominate stalkers when they outnumber them that much.
If you've FFEd you should have +1, working on +2.
Immortals utterly destroy roaches. If you get that fast +3 it's insane how much they crush them. FF as many roaches as you can out of the fight, your zealots will tank while the immortals/what stalkers you have and your sentries mop them up.
Your FFs need to be insanely good, trapping roaches and keeping others out of the fight continuously. 6-8 sentries is a good number. AND you need to warp in while fighting, so a lot of actions are required. Remember that Zerg can remax faster than you when on 3 base with a macro hatch, and roaches are cheaper than stalkers (you should be reinforcing with stalkers but keeping up constant immortal production), so don't get caught out thinking you can punish him after you force an army away by not setting up a forward pylon as he'll have 20 roaches to support his army in a second.
Main problem with this is that if you overmake immortals/anticipate more roaches and his Lair tech is Spire (either mutas or fast hive to blords) your immortals will become sitting ducks. So if they go this roach style, you hold it, and they tech (which is usual) you should attack. If he goes hydra to counter immortals your tech choice is obvious - throw down a robo, charge, maybe expand if you can, and get out those colossi.
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On March 16 2012 02:53 Harstem wrote:
I find it extremely hard to hold and really easy to perform as a zerg player.
glgl<3
This build sounds appealing.
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Italy2850 Posts
You have no idea the timing of huk attack, lol.
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On March 16 2012 03:09 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:53 Harstem wrote:
I find it extremely hard to hold and really easy to perform as a zerg player.
glgl<3 This build sounds appealing.
it really is ezpz, and dear god i've missed protoss tears after getting shit on over and over again by retard two base colo builds a couple months ago
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You guys need to understand that right now the best way to deal with this zerg playstyle is to follow exactly what FGL poitned out, making any other argument is pure stupidity. There are other options to this but making such arguments as you will lose to hive tech or that 2base all isn are the answer is just so stupid. I dont understand where you people get these ideas but please speak with some experience.
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Has anyone played around with a fast third and spamming cannons+immortal+sentry?
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On March 16 2012 03:09 Belha wrote:
You have no idea the timing of huk attack, lol.
I do. It's essentially the 8:00 minute +1 zealot timing but with 8 gates and some sentry/stalker mixed in. And a 7 min roach warren can hold it consistently.
If you pick a new all-in each game and deny scouting, you'll win some games. But Z has the tools to defend, and as they continue to improve, you'll win less and less often. We need some good builds that rely on strength rather than surprise.
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On March 16 2012 03:18 MrFrenchy wrote:
Has anyone played around with a fast third and spamming cannons+immortal+sentry?
certain maps it may be doable but honestly more often then not even if you hold if off well I feel like the remax will kill you off pretty reliably (esp since by that time more upgrades will have kicked in, and I would have sniped as many sentries/immortals as possible)
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On March 16 2012 03:03 FGL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:51 Rorschach wrote:On March 16 2012 01:07 FGL wrote:On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote:
1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air
blink stalkers with sim city to blink around
immortals
any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack. The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes. Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural 8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg. here is the problem as I see it. Sure you can get an army out to deal with a 3 hatch roach zerg BUT by the time you have that army (immortal, FF, blink stalkers , + 2) the zergs econ and tech will be so disgusting that he will just roll you over with hive tech. By the time you have the army to secure that third base against near max roach army you will be so far from a mothership+archons (as you will not have the additional 2 gas for a long time) that BL/infestor/spine is unbeatable with your "midgame" army.... Thus we see the trend of a players dieing trying to get up that third or two base timings to kill the zergs third..... The only thing I've been making work against zerg is a damn near pure sg play to help me take a third uncontested after the FFE. Essentially you try and dictate their composition by forcing anti air units out. Things that counter it, drops (nydus also) and early roach allins (which you typically don't see with zergs going for fast thirds) ..... At my skill lvl most zergs do one of two things. Overreact to the sg (spores, faster spire/infestation pit or even hyrdas). I've found it actually work to your advantage if they overcompensate for the sg play as they may have enough to contest your dominance in the skies but will likewise lack the ground army to actually kill your bases which should have cannons out the wazoo (picture a muta/ling zerg player hiding behind spines and doing his best to keep you in your base). on the flip side if they don't overreact you are very vulnerable to being worn down by mass roaches.... Think about Genius vs DRG where on entombed he went dbl sg phx into carrier. I believe that DRG got lucky by blind countering the bld but it has potential! If he's going to go to 200/200 roaches with ~60 drones there's no way he can afford to go hive tech reasonably quickly. It all comes down to how well you can defend his aggression. If you take too much damage you'll spend all your resources on rebuilding which gives him the time needed for hive but if you defend it with minimal losses he will be behind. This is the time to take your fourth/get aggressive/teching to stargate/mothership. A stalker immoratl sentry army will demolish a roach one once you have critical mass and en You miss the point, yes hive comes late BUT a ough ff energy. Usually at around 160 supply you can start to move out
You're talking about getting a 4th up while ignoring the fact that you can't reliably secure that third base on many maps (entombed valley is probably the best map for toss to take an easy third after FFE which is why muta play is seen a lot on that map instead or roaches).
For the most part a zerg maxed on roach/ling at 12-13 mins is going to kill your third!
You FFE, you can't take that third without a very anti roach powerful army....
There are only two ways ways you get that third uncontested.
1.
You take a risk trying to get it up (not having that powerful two base anti-roach army) and the zerg is passive with his forces which the point of 3 base max roach army is to deny that third...
Even with good sim city and FF you are going to take heavy losses in either the third or your natural.
2.
If you don't go for the third quickly and take the time to power hard and get that army by the time you actually have the army to hold vs the roach and get that third up the zerg WILL be on hive tech.
Or at the very least infestors will be on the field which are pretty damn good at shutting down an immortal/blink army and letting the roaches get in...
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Italy2850 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:19 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:09 Belha wrote:
You have no idea the timing of huk attack, lol. I do. It's essentially the 8:00 minute +1 zealot timing but with 8 gates and some sentry/stalker mixed in. And a 7 min roach warren can hold it consistently. If you pick a new all-in each game and deny scouting, you'll win some games. But Z has the tools to defend, and as they continue to improve, you'll win less and less often. We need some good builds that rely on strength rather than surprise.
Of curse you know, silly sally.
I was talking to this Flonomenalz guy that claims that he can have 120 food when the attack hits lol.
I have no doubt that very good defense can hold it, but z needs to micro, and z's are not used to do it, also splitting zealots into another hatch is a must and i not agree that any high master/gm can beat it consistently.
I used to think as you with the "good builds that rely on strength rather than surprise" cose, yeah, you should eventually bottle neck, we think the same here. But i find that this is not that close to the true, specially in the actual meta.
Genius went for only 2 macro games aganist drg (and prolly is one of the few capable macro P's out there). One he played flawlesly and won, the other (metropolis), he missclicked his units once, and lost. One micro mistake. That not happens to z's. Plus, there is the design fact: z's get much better eco free of skill charge. In every other game of the finals, and in 80% of top pros pvz's, the P goes for 2 base attacks. And pros know better than us what they are doing.
And, for the record, while playing 2 base timings repeatedly, it indeed bottle neck your macro, but it boost a lot your micro. Even the most subtle micro details can change the course of a game during timing attacks, i learn that of MC.
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People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
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On March 15 2012 16:35 kcdc wrote:
Seriously guys, I know how I could have executed better. But I was down 90 supply and 2 bases. Had I played better, I could have been down 70 supply and 2 bases. I wasn't going to win.
Im not looking to discuss my play in that game. I think beating maxed roaches at 12 min is going to take big strategic shifts--not refining an immortal all in. Give me your big ideas.
you cannot avoid being 70 supply down, but you can scout that he hasnt either spire or infestation pit and therefore add a 2nd robo and simply go immortal sentry heavy and take a 3rd. its not easy to hold, you need very good micro (and a good map like antiga) and you can defend it.
no matter how well the zerg focuses immortals (and probably the colossus you might add later) and tries to moveshot, if the protoss does well he cannot righout win with this 3 base roach massing if you use forcefields well.
but its hard to fall behind for him as well, since he can take a 4th while pushing and transition into infestor/corrupter while u invest lots into sentrys.
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On March 16 2012 03:25 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:19 kcdc wrote:On March 16 2012 03:09 Belha wrote:
You have no idea the timing of huk attack, lol. I do. It's essentially the 8:00 minute +1 zealot timing but with 8 gates and some sentry/stalker mixed in. And a 7 min roach warren can hold it consistently. If you pick a new all-in each game and deny scouting, you'll win some games. But Z has the tools to defend, and as they continue to improve, you'll win less and less often. We need some good builds that rely on strength rather than surprise. Of curse you know, silly sally. I was talking to this Flonomenalz guy that claims that he can have 120 food when the attack hits lol. I have no doubt that very good defense can hold it, but z needs to micro, and z's are not used to do it, also splitting zealots into another hatch is a must and i not agree that any high master/gm can beat it consistently.
i honestly cannot believe this. op spells out pretty explicitly that the style is low drone, fast gas/warren. This is how zergs have been beating two base P for months, not just with stephano style. TWO BASE TIMINGS BLOW VS THIS BUILD
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Really appreciate the ideas in this thread, I find the build really frustrating to play against. It absolutely annihilates my usual Naniwa-style colossi two base all in that hits at 12:00.
I've found some success sniping the roach warren at about 9 with a warp prism using sentries and zealots, lowering the roach numbers a lot. But it's not a dependable strategy.
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On March 16 2012 03:28 sleepingdog wrote:
People have laughed at me when I stated a long time ago, that the loss of the 4-gate-threat will hurt PvZ. Now nobody laughs anymore.
Seriously, the main underlying problem that screws this match-up so badly is that there is NOTHING you can do in the early game that poses a serious threat to a zerg. 3 gate sentry-expo is dead because of that too.
well, nothing you can do before 8:30 with FFE, thats right.
but after that, you have to do at least SOMETHING. 1 voidray, some heavier airharass, a warpprism harass, some zealot pressure - you have to do sth to force units before them having 80 drones, so they at least get to that point 2 minutes later.
OR you are creative and go with a 1 gate expo build with 1 gas, apply pressure with 2 stalkers and 1 zealot while taking the expo with forge/cannon/ 2more gates.
at least that leaves the Z in the dark.
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I think opening FFE into 3gate Stargate, getting 5-6 Phoenixes to harrass and slow down the Zerg might be useful as an opening. (while getting the map control, scouting expansion timings, tech tree, army supply etc.) The goal should be to get a 11-12min third at the worst case imo.
While harrassing, getting additional 3 Gateways+ a Robo for immortals and Council for fast Blink might help you hold on to your third. Good forcefields+immortals and blink could help you hold on to your third. I think after getting like 3 immortals, you should also start immediately transitioning to Colossus. preferably on double Robo.
I like this opening because if Zerg is going Mutas, I already have Phoenixes which I can boost in number after seeing that+I have a Council for Blink and the pathway to the Storm tech. If Z is going infestor raoch push, you can always lift up the infestors to prevent fungals and kill them while your immo stalker sentry army with good forcefields can deal with the roach push.
But honestly OP, I understand you well. I am just a Plat protoss, and I've been playing with a Diamond Zerg player doing this strategy. We have played something like 10 games in a row and on some maps, such as Cloud Kingdom or Antiga, holding on to that third is super hard, you need to have great forcefield placement, and the good composition, and also need to restrict movement through buldings to prevent roaches from swarming over you.
I think after holding on to your third, a quick 2-3 Colo push asap to punish the Zerg's 4th and trade his roaches/slow down his BL tech could he useful in the longrun, as getting 14-15 min Fleet Beacon then for a fast Mothership with Archon against the BL/Infestor.
Then ofcourse, some strong 2 base timings like MC have demonstrated might be useful but I don't really know that well about those so I'll leave it up to those who know about it, if they do actually exist against good Zergs who can defend well.
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EPT
