The idea is to FFE into stargate, chrono 2 phoenix first and use it to scout. They have 4 main uses.
1) Scout the enemy 2) Kill stray overloads around your base 3) Kill lings occupying watchtowers 4) Lair timing
At the same time you should be getting citadel (and charge), +1 weapons and going up to 4 gates and be forming a control group of zealots shortly afterwards to force spines, lings or force him to take the roach path.
Depending on the response of the zerg, you should continue stargate production to form up a force of 5 phoenixes to go on queen sniping, even though 4 is enough, 5 is able to kill a queen very quickly even if there are 2 spores in which you can micro out of barely taking hull damage. Particularly important I have realised in PvZ on how crucial queens are. If you scout spire, then immediately go +1 air weapons (although very rarely).
It is possible to take a third relatively safe and early if you manage to snipe about 2 queens simply because he won't be able to keep up production to pressure you. There's no real timing in this because it depends on how well your phoenix usage is.
The key is multitasking here, you need to be active with your first 2 phoenixes in scouting the map out and even more active once you get your 5 phoenixes because you need to keep the zerg in check. Zealot sharking is good, but ground forces at this stage for you are too valuable and vulnerable to counter (roaches)
Lair timing. This is what makes or breaks you, seeing a lair is a ... 'good sign' because you know an all-in isn't coming, theres still a lot to learn from a protoss point of view in seeing lair timings but one things for sure, your not expecting a early mass roach or baneling bust any time soon.
Monk, if youhave a rep, go ahead and post it. I chose the one I posted because the Z did the build well. My build was shit, but just imagine any other build from the Toss side. +2 blink would get crushed. +1 zealot pressure would set P further behind. 2 St would do the same. 1 sg would leave you with a smaller anti roach force. Maybe a really crisp immortal pressure can take an occasional game.
But we all know what the strategy looks like. How do you beat it? To those that say take a third and forcefield, I'd ask what do you do when he works his roaches between your natural and your third?
genius seems to deal with this quiet good, the only map i always see zerg win on is daybreak, on other maps genies use theffe into sg play to take a 3rd and he does be quiet safe, i have no idea why he tried such fancy crap in gsl finals but im sure he would of done better if he just played his normal game
On March 15 2012 16:03 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: Make a warp prism to scout their gas count and harass (4 gas means Stephano Style) and then go fast 2 base collosus in response. Once you have 3-4 collosus you can easily secure your third and/or push the Zerg.
Can You elaborate on how to get 3-4 colossus against this style, without dying? Because to remind You, if You harass You have less units in the main, if they get spines to counter your harass zerg will be 200/200 max. 2 minutes later and all You have are those 3-4 colossi with like 50 supply of other units in the main and You die even faster.
On March 15 2012 16:30 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Our Hero our buddy we all love him. Liquid NonY has a good response to this go watch his stream vods Twitch.tv/liquidtyler He does a gateway expand build that I have been loving soooo much. You go standard 3 gate expo but you only get 2 gates and expo around 30+ food and then get a forge and 3rd and 4th gates and pressure with zealots and sentries while getting a robo and twilight getting +2 blink and pumping immortals and stalkers you just put pressure on their third. "Shark out" Have to have good ffs though to not die. While you are killing their third with immortal blink sentry you take your third and get 6 gates and a support bay. I haven't lost with it yet though I haven't really faced muta builds with it.
On March 15 2012 23:59 kcdc wrote: Monk, if youhave a rep, go ahead and post it. I chose the one I posted because the Z did the build well. My build was shit, but just imagine any other build from the Toss side. +2 blink would get crushed. +1 zealot pressure would set P further behind. 2 St would do the same. 1 sg would leave you with a smaller anti roach force. Maybe a really crisp immortal pressure can take an occasional game.
But we all know what the strategy looks like. How do you beat it? To those that say take a third and forcefield, I'd ask what do you do when he works his roaches between your natural and your third?
1sg is the solution really.
You position your army between your nat and third, with your air in the middle of the map. You also wall off the far end of the third. That way he can't do split attacks with small forces of roaches or lings as your wall-off keeps those at bay. Your air keeps tabs on him where he is pushing in force so you can respond and if he takes the middle attack route you simply FF there. If he attacks with just burrow you have phoenix to lift roaches everytime he uplifts, if he waits for burrow and claws you should be having colossi/immortal.
It's not very easy but most zergs have problems performing the attack well too. Also many zergs start roaches too early just out of fear of what you are doing. As far as I see it pvz basically boils down to a 2 base timing or sg into 3rd. Other techs just don't come close when it comes to securing a third.
This is pure theorycraft but hopefully it will give some inspiration to Protoss players. The post is divided on some theory and then the basic build sketch.
I am a lowly diamond player and play zerg and terran. My easiest match-up at the moment is ZvP, because of the famous Stephano build. Completely safe 3rd and either deny the 3rd or go ultra-fast broodlord/spine. Either way, it's almost a free win if I play it right.
Now, I'm thinking about the evolution of the match-up and how more bases were implemented. In the old days, zergs figured out that with their not-so-cost efficient units, they needed some sort of FE. Protoss players killed it with timings from 1 base, until zergs learned how to defend it. And protoss players were at a huge disadvantage, they had no way to take their natural expo safely.
Then began the era of 2base (Z ---> 14p15h, 14g14p15h) vs 2base (P--->FFE). Protoss players developed the FFE. Roach/ling out of 2 base (Losira timing) killed/crippled the protoss players until they learned how to defend it. And zergs were at a huge disadvantage, they had no way to get a third safely.
Then began the era of 3base (Z ---> no gas, fast third) vs 2base (P--->FFE). Huge economy which was countered by timing attacks our OP had the courtesy to include in his short story of that specific phase of the match-up. But then, the zergs learned how to defend it (ty Stephano). And protoss players are at a huge disadvantage, they have no way to take a third safely.
Do you see a pattern? I'll quote some famous words at this point: "First we make expand, then defense it"
And from those wise words derives my idea on how to solve PvZ:
A zerg player who is taking gas at 6:00, lair/evo roach warren at 7:00 has no way to attack besides slow lings, up until 8:30-9:00 depending on the map size. And that is the fastest possible. 160 supply at 11. 200 army at 12, knocking at your door at 12:30.
A gas at 6:00 means no zergling speed up till 7:40. Can we assume that with the help of a few cannons and a couple of sentries, an expansion would be safe from a few slow lings? Can we also assume that a zerg going Stephano is not going to be able to switch into kill-mode and attack the protoss with a decent force (that has some roaches in it) before 9:30?
I believe we can. Based on those assumptions it is safe to conclude that a build somewhat like Parting's 1gate ---> 3 base vT is possible.
Quick sketch of the build:
-FFE as normal.
-Follow up with only 1 gas, mining 50 gas for the warpgate upgrade. You will take gas gradually and after your third nexus is established.
-When minerals allow (with constant probe/zealot -out of 1 gate- production) get a nexus at the third and dress it with a few (2-3 cannons), while going full defensive simcity with your additional gates.
-When minerals allow build the aforementioned gates (3-4 at least) and get the tech of your choice. That way, a protoss player has 3 bases and 65-70 probes with a few chronoboosts on the cybernatics core as well, by the 8th minute. And that comes with a stupid amount of income.
I realise I am just giving a really rough sketch but I cannot go any further, because I don't have experience as protoss. I am wondering about:
When to get more gas? How many more gaysers? Go +5 gas at once? Go gradually (for example +1 gas for the fast robo, +2 gas for the forge upgrades, +3 for the unit production and blink upgrade, etc)?
Also I should mention that while I see this working in theory, it would require constant scouting and gas counting by the Protoss to see if zerg has abandoned the drone up mode and has gone kill mode (perhaps hallucination upgrade since we go light on tech and sentry heavy?). Remember, there is a full 2:30 - 3:00 delay between a zerg taking gas and him having the basic tech to do a worthwhile attack.
On March 15 2012 23:59 kcdc wrote: Monk, if youhave a rep, go ahead and post it. I chose the one I posted because the Z did the build well. My build was shit, but just imagine any other build from the Toss side. +2 blink would get crushed. +1 zealot pressure would set P further behind. 2 St would do the same. 1 sg would leave you with a smaller anti roach force. Maybe a really crisp immortal pressure can take an occasional game.
But we all know what the strategy looks like. How do you beat it? To those that say take a third and forcefield, I'd ask what do you do when he works his roaches between your natural and your third?
1sg is the solution really.
You position your army between your nat and third, with your air in the middle of the map. You also wall off the far end of the third. That way he can't do split attacks with small forces of roaches or lings as your wall-off keeps those at bay. Your air keeps tabs on him where he is pushing in force so you can respond and if he takes the middle attack route you simply FF there. If he attacks with just burrow you have phoenix to lift roaches everytime he uplifts, if he waits for burrow and claws you should be having colossi/immortal.
It's not very easy but most zergs have problems performing the attack well too. Also many zergs start roaches too early just out of fear of what you are doing. As far as I see it pvz basically boils down to a 2 base timing or sg into 3rd. Other techs just don't come close when it comes to securing a third.
I've done a lot of 1sg -> third, and I just don't think it's safe. Z has twice your army size as roach speed finishes, and he can bounce back and forth between the entrances to your third or he can just hit both sides at once. What this does is force your army into your third to defend which lets him work his army between your main and natural. At this point, you have to split your army between your main and natural or he'll just walk into the one w/o forcefields. This is obviously a terrible position--with your army split and chokes to forcefield, you're going to run out of forcefields. And if you miraculously survive this part with a ton of sentries, you're going to die to the mutas that he's replacing his lost roaches with at home.
Not the greatest example. In that replay white-ra lost his 3rd to roach pressure, and Stephano was up 40+ supply with 4 bases against 2.
Stephano botched the game later on, but it was not due to WhiteRa handling the roach rush well.
Yeah, I kind of chuckled to myself that people were mentioning the WhiteRa vs Stephano series. Stephano won 5-1, mostly on the strength of abusing his 3 base roach attacks, and in the one game that WhiteRa took, Stephano actually had a huge lead all game but botched the lategame losing all of his BL's to a single vortex.
IMO SG into 3rd isn't really an answer. They will still be sending wave after wave of mass speed roaches behind a massive economy to deny your 3rd, and while there have been cases of protoss' holding it is ALWAYS an uphill battle for the protoss at that point in the game. This absolutely cannot be denied. Protoss can hold if they get off perfect FFs and get favorable engagement after favorable engagement, and even if they can hold the zerg grabs their 4th behind this attack. Once roach burrow movement and/or a flock of mutas get out it is incredibly hard to hold. You more or less have to significantly outplay your opponent to win at this point. Does that situation sound like an "answer" to anybody?
I an absolutely positive that a well-executed 3 Immortal timing will net you far, far more wins than going for any type of 3rd build out of FFE on ladder. While everybody likes to joke about FFE into 2-base timings, that really is the most effective option out of a FFE. However you'll have a problem if you're playing in a best of X tourney or vs. practice partners or what have you if you only do 1 type of 2-base timing (so you have to mix up the 2-base timings you use of FFE). I really believe FFE vs 3-hatch is a game of "guess the 2-base timing." I wouldn't say it's an unbalanced matchup though exactly, since 2-base timings out of FFEs are still pretty damn strong, and you don't necessarily have to kill them outright with it. As long as you take out 1 of their bases you can safely expand and play a macro game from that point since that will cripple their economy enough that you can stop their counter attack (if you didn't lose your entire army or something like that of course).
I think if you really wanted to explore a "standard" 3+ base macro game vs zerg I would start explore the yufFE opening of gate-nexus-forge/core opening. I've been experimenting with it and it has a lot of potential, but it remains to be seen the optimal zerg reactions to it. It gets a nexus nearly as fast as FFE but gets a faster WG and can apply early pressure to force units. It also appears to be safe vs zerg all-ins, or at the very least the safest 1-gate expand build due to the forge after nexus. Zergs also won't get a 4:30 third vs. a gate opening, and your early army puts you on the map from a very early stage in the game which can be used to "shark" or whatever you call it to keep the zerg on their toes.
If you want a fast third these are basically the things you have to do:
- Get your third and fourth gas really quickly ( I like to get the third as the core is building and the fourth when it completes). You need to be able to get stargate-sentry-wg quickly afte the core completes.
- Stargate before wg tech, by getting it superfast you can almsot always snipe some drones and force some more spores. Get 5 phoenixes after the voidray but don't show them until they're all done. 5 is quite ideal because you will be in great shape in case he goes muta and with 5 you can do a lot of damage if the zerg isn't careful, and they're also your scout for the remainder of the game + you can snipe infestors with them. With your air you need to snipe some roaches as he moves across the map. You need to get fast sentries out of your initial gate until you have around 8.
- Add 3 more gates and take the third base really quickly, 8:30ish is my personal preference. At the 9minute mark I like to tech tc+robo for immortal/blink because it's very versatile. If you fast tech to colossus you will be in trouble vs muta and pure blink stalker/air can't stop roaches so you need immortals. Then get like 5 more gates around your third and simcity + ff. On maps like antiga I usually leave some sentry/stalker/immortal at the natural because you can defend both areas by using the ramps, but you can take him in the semi-open with good forcefields too.
- Fast attack upgrades! You need to get +2 by the time his attack hits. Blink/immortal with +2 is really good vs roaches.
- After you build a nice immortal/blink/sentry force you tech colossus or ht based on the zerg's army composition. Your goal is to go either double robo colossi and timing push him before he has broodlords in case of no muta, and to turtle up with ht, take a 4th and tech to mothership vs muta.
PvZ is really, really hard atm. I always get really frustrated when people say toss is too strong because in macro games one mistake equals gg. You cannot miss forcefields, get supplyblocked too often or misuse chronoboosts because it will get you killed. What I hate about the mu right now is that non stargate opners are very weak vs muta, and stargate opners aren't really all that good vs roach. I've been having decent success with the above, but really 2base timings are simply better and maybe even your only option if you want to win consistently in high level play.
On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: 1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air blink stalkers with sim city to blink around immortals any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack.
The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes.
Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped
Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural
8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back
If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third
Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg.
I don't think stargate is the way to go tbh. When stephano streamed a marathon against mana he just added hydras whenever mana went stargate and the push was even more one-sided due to P having wasted a lot of gas into air units.
Not the greatest example. In that replay white-ra lost his 3rd to roach pressure, and Stephano was up 40+ supply with 4 bases against 2.
Stephano botched the game later on, but it was not due to WhiteRa handling the roach rush well.
Yeah, I kind of chuckled to myself that people were mentioning the WhiteRa vs Stephano series. Stephano won 5-1, mostly on the strength of abusing his 3 base roach attacks, and in the one game that WhiteRa took, Stephano actually had a huge lead all game but botched the lategame losing all of his BL's to a single vortex.
Not the greatest example. In that replay white-ra lost his 3rd to roach pressure, and Stephano was up 40+ supply with 4 bases against 2.
Stephano botched the game later on, but it was not due to WhiteRa handling the roach rush well.
So look at MC or Genius last GSL.
Because clearly, they are doing something right.
As was said by many including NesTea on state of the game - it was more Genius losing the final than DRG winning it, but his whole run was amazing, especially vs zerg.
Todays up and down matches, Brown vs Lucky is a good example.
If the zerg doesn't scout perfectly, the most viable way to play against it is a 2 base all in most of the time. Because if the zerg doesn't prepare perfectly for the variant he faces, he loses. If he overprepares because he faces that most of the time - then you can start faking, it taking a third, etc.
My opinion is that this thread have the wrong goal.
You are all looking for a way to safely play vs zerg until the end game.
Not realizing that the specific build you are playing against, is optimized to beat any protoss playing trying to safely get to the late game.
Why did DRG and MC not lose to this kind of style? Because they know better. They win, because they in a lot of their games, do a 2 base all in, that you can't beat unless you perfectly prepare.
I see claims in this thread that the stephano build is 'safe' against two base all ins ... it isn't. That is actually the weakness of the build most of the time. But it doesn't matter in most games, because protoss are usually playing for the end game.
This type is really popular right now, and as a result as has been said, on korean ladder, protoss is pretty much only doing 2 base all ins (and winning with it).
It's like ZvT where the T get a third CC at 6:00. You spot that, you should win - because you have such a good timing window because the T cut corners trying to get an optimized build for the late game going.
If you 'know' the zerg is going for a build where he starts building units around or after 8:00 ... check out Brown vs Lucky today for a perfect build to use against that.
Not the greatest example. In that replay white-ra lost his 3rd to roach pressure, and Stephano was up 40+ supply with 4 bases against 2.
Stephano botched the game later on, but it was not due to WhiteRa handling the roach rush well.
So look at MC or Genius last GSL.
Because clearly, they are doing something right.
As was said by many including NesTea on state of the game - it was more Genius losing the final than DRG winning it, but his whole run was amazing, especially vs zerg.
If the zerg doesn't scout perfectly, the most viable way to play against it is a 2 base all in most of the time. Because if the zerg doesn't prepare perfectly for the variant he faces, he loses. If he overprepares because he faces that most of the time - then you can start faking, it taking a third, etc.
My opinion is that this thread have the wrong goal.
You are all looking for a way to safely play vs zerg until the end game.
Not realizing that the specific build you are playing against, is optimized to beat any protoss playing trying to safely get to the late game.
Why did DRG and MC not lose to this kind of style? Because they know better. They win, because they in a lot of their games, do a 2 base all in, that you can't beat unless you perfectly prepare.
I see claims in this thread that the stephano build is 'safe' against two base all ins ... it isn't. That is actually the weakness of the build most of the time. But it doesn't matter in most games, because protoss are usually playing for the end game.
This type is really popular right now, and as a result as has been said, on korean ladder, protoss is pretty much only doing 2 base all ins (and winning with it).
It's like ZvT where the T get a third CC at 6:00. You spot that, you should win - because you have such a good timing window because the T cut corners trying to get an optimized build for the late game going.
If you 'know' the zerg is going for a build where he starts building units around or after 8:00 ... check out Brown vs Lucky today for a perfect build to use against that.
I was under the impression that this would hold roach pressure like you mentioned at your third if played super cleanly, but you're the author of that thread, so has something changed that I'm not seeing?
I think it all comes back to the fact that warpgate units are shit. protoss is going to continue to be strongest doing timing attacks until blizzard swallows their pride and either eliminates warpgate completely, moves the upgrade to TC, or have it be warp prism only and buffs gateway units.
On March 16 2012 01:08 VoirDire wrote: I don't think stargate is the way to go tbh. When stephano streamed a marathon against mana he just added hydras whenever mana went stargate and the push was even more one-sided due to P having wasted a lot of gas into air units.
Hydra's mean additional tech costs for Z though and make the zerg army very slow. Besides phoenix aren't even bad against hydra's in small numbers.
For people that don't like the super fast third with sg + gateway units you can also just get sg into fairly fast robo off 1 base. You'll take your third later then but it's an super easy hold at that point. For example getting the robo after your first phoenix roughly while making sentries and then adding immortals + an obs while expanding. The quick obs +void combination is ideal for setting that creep highway back a little bit and giving you good intel. Also some advice people give that you need to focus on upgrades against this is crap, upgrades are practically a waste against roach timings, unless you have a huge amount of immortals those upgrades hardly do anyting and are better stalled to get after you secure the third..
The multipronged roach attacks are really only a problem if you lack proper walling at the third. If they split roaches you can keep your sentry/stalker army between nat and third for their main attack while splitting off a few stalkers + your air units to the third.
The roach timing on the third is really strong but often it's hard to transition out of for zerg too because if P holds they can basically start pushing at 180 with 3 colo before zerg has time to transition into something more supply effective.
It's just an general trait of sc2 it seems that many aggresive timings are easier to execute then defend them, hence going for 2 base yourself is often easier then following zerg into the 3 base game. I hate the dice roll that 2 base attacks are though, it's just banking on your opponent to not defend on time. I've yet to see a decent 2 base attack that can somewhat transition well into lategame.
Like said above, i believe the soloution has to be in a third base or a quicker timing to punish the third. Anything else is just gimmicky and hoping the zerg screws up his defense, 3 base executed properly will ALWAYS beat 2 base.
Now like someone said above, with zergs beeing so extra greedy and delaying gas to the 6-7 minute mark there might be a way to get a quick third up as well, spending all chrono on probes (maybe with some small 3 gate pressure).
getting only 50 gas, or only 1 assimilator untill you have 3 bases up, then quickly take 6 gas maybe halluc maybe quick robo for scouting.
Weaknesses i see here are things where the zerg doesnt take a quick third, and goes for a 2 base timing.
Another soloution might be to do something like an "all in" strat, like the 8 gate attack and modify it to allow an expansion (get 4 sentries, add a third, only use 7 gateways for instance)
EPT
