EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 3
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BlinkGosu
United States46 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 15 2012 18:52 BlinkGosu wrote: try mothership rushing into lots of cannons+voids to kill the overseer, in my opinion it's safe because hydra are pretty bad (lets be honest) and you can transition easily into archon toilet off 3 base without investing heavily into lots of sentries or ground upgrades or charge/blink or stalkers or any of that stuff that "maybe" holds off the roach all-in. the early stargate is standard anyway so the mothership tech is really not that far out of the way. WTF did I just read? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
watch stephano vs elfi where elfi doesnt only kill stephanos 3rd but also walks in the spine defended natural and just kills him. buff toss right now would just be REALLY retarded. there is absolutely no need to do so as february results show. toss is best race in PvT and PvZ. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
I just think that most maps in the ladder pool are so difficult to get a third as protoss and are not easily defendable and you are strectched between your natural and third if you do get a third and instant lose if you get caught out of position!!! It does make you laugh that Stephano actually come sout with how much stronger Z is vs P... only zerg that actually admits it. lol | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
1) 3 gate stalker pressure pre-warpgate, the weakest phase of stephanos build is before he gets the roach warren and lingspeed, so you regularly see 1-2 stalkers putting up lots of pressure against slow lings... why not try as many stalkers as possible? here's a rough bo against pc: http://drop.sc/134553 2) 2 stargate phoenixes into carriers and then take the third with some cannons | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
On March 15 2012 19:50 Decendos wrote: /sign When Toss goes for a 6-7 Gate All-In you have a REALLY hard time defending that push, u have to hit EVERY injection and get out the right units, without knowing if there will be 7 Stalkers or 7 Zaelots next. as its been said: mass sentry/immortal or some sentry/blink pressure (dont lose your sentries!) on 5 gate while taking your 3rd or allinning with 6-7 gates with the same two styles are just SO strong vs roach ling. i would prefer 5 gate sentry/blink (add some immortal or collosus later on) for macro and 6-7 gate sentry/immortal for all inning. watch stephano vs elfi where elfi doesnt only kill stephanos 3rd but also walks in the spine defended natural and just kills him. buff toss right now would just be REALLY retarded. there is absolutely no need to do so as february results show. toss is best race in PvT and PvZ. On March 15 2012 20:08 Tommylew wrote: Stephano is one of the best players out there. It's nothing wrong with the fact he destroys all Protosses on ladder as those are mostly Top Masters players not nearly as good as him.the main problem is that with one building which every zerg pretty much incorporates these days counters both any air harass and also DT which then is a free win for most zergs doing this style as it sets you back too much. I just think that most maps in the ladder pool are so difficult to get a third as protoss and are not easily defendable and you are strectched between your natural and third if you do get a third and instant lose if you get caught out of position!!! It does make you laugh that Stephano actually come sout with how much stronger Z is vs P... only zerg that actually admits it. lol A buff for toss would be ok imho but only for the early game - mid game. In the lategame it's P which is favored. Mass Colossus and Mass Blinkstalkers is so tough to deal with and most likely impossible when you don't have any Broodlords and even with Mass Roach and Zerglings it's really hard to punish a turtleing Toss. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:48 Forbidden17 wrote: The root of the problem is zerg being able to get to 60drones by 8mins on 3base, and stephano basically made it safe as hell to get to that stage. There needs to be another way to harass Zerg to stop him from droning like no tomorrow, but toss is too limited on their harass options out of a FFE. Perhaps FFE is not the way to open in PvZ? Just thinking out loud here, I mean we always knew FFE had trouble putting pressure back on the Zerg, hence they grab a 5min 3rd upon seeing it. I realize a gateway FE style would encounter a whole other set of problems =[ I'm a mid/high master and I always open 1 gate FE in PvZ. Without sentries. I always put pressure back onto Zerg asap with a zealot and two stalkers ( especially vs gasless builds ) to force tons of lings, snippe overlords and queens. This absolutely does not prevent a Zerg from taking his third at the 5' mark. In addition, you have no reliable way to punish a hatch first. With a 1 gate FE you can do a 4 zealots warpin at the 7' mark, but you won't have the +1 attack yet. You can have +1 and 8 zealots around the 8' mark, but that's the same timing than doing it out of a FFE. This Stephano-mass-roaches style is as much of a problem with a 1 gate FE than it is against a FFE, trust me. So I don't think it can simply be solved by doing a more agressive build. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On March 15 2012 20:24 Nyast wrote: I'm a mid/high master and I always open 1 gate FE in PvZ. Without sentries. I always put pressure back onto Zerg asap with a zealot and two stalkers ( especially vs gasless builds ) to force tons of lings, snippe overlords and queens. This absolutely does not prevent a Zerg from taking his third at the 5' mark. In addition, you have no reliable way to punish a hatch first. With a 1 gate FE you can do a 4 zealots warpin at the 7' mark, but you won't have the +1 attack yet. You can have +1 and 8 zealots around the 8' mark, but that's the same timing than doing it out of a FFE. This Stephano-mass-roaches style is as much of a problem with a 1 gate FE than it is against a FFE, trust me. I'm playing at the same level as you but I've had the "FFE or die trying" mentality in PvZ since forever so I'll take your word for it  was just hoping to bounce ideas in the dark | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Because he just doesn't lose to zerg it seems. Stephano style relies on you not breaking through on a committed 2 base all in. He takes risks in order to have an extreme lategame, based off whatever scouting information he can get. Right now there are two zergs that really knows how to play ZvP: DRG and Stephano. All zergs are pretty much copying them. IMHO, DRG is even better than Stephano in that he takes slightly less risks it seems. Stephano style to me relies more on the opponent not doing the optimal thing (like, getting drone kills before they are transferred away - he always gives up his hatch and saves his drones). Have you seen on Whitera's stream? He seems to beat Stephano a fair bit (not the majority of the game, but I've seen him win quite a few times when I watch Stephano) <- Game 1, WhiteRa wins.Stephano goes on to win the series. In addition, watching Genius in the last GSL really shows how to beat Zerg (he lost in the final more because he was indecisive and mindgamed himself, more than DRG outplaying him, but watching his whole run, he has a lot of good vs zerg builds). Did you watch last IEM? Check out MC vs Violet as well. That Stephano believes Z is favored in ZvP, means it's his best matchup, but I don't think general evidence support it. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I'm not saying gate expands is the way to go, I wouldn't know since I don't play protoss and I'm not even close to a level where I can evaluate builds in that way, but the reason zergs go for a third hatch immediately is because there's literally nothing the protoss can do about it after a forge expand and the zerg macro mechanics make it far better for the zerg than the protoss. I wouldn't call the matchup imbalanced at this point, it takes very very good play from the zerg to make the gameplan strong enough that protoss should feel helpless, but I think eventually, the pros will become so good at reacting and reading protoss tells that we'll have a standard zerg gameplan which will be extremely hard for protoss to beat. Will toss need to be buffed at that point? Maybe, but I think we first need to wait until this "imbalance" is more visible in the pro tournaments, then we need to wait for protoss reactions to that situation. If it turns out that there's no way out of it, that's when we could start discussing buffs. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Motherships provide an instant army boost on your existing army while giving you cover to expand or the power to tackle a greedy player. On March 15 2012 20:32 Tobberoth wrote: Nony has said for a while that forge expands aren't good, and I think with this style (which is actually pretty old, Tang made a guide about it ages ago), near perfect execution from a zerg makes it almost impossible for a protoss to win. It's pretty easy for a zerg to scout the protoss and if the zerg knows how to react, I don't think there's much a protoss can do without being left behind unless their micro is superb beyond belief. I'm not saying gate expands is the way to go, I wouldn't know since I don't play protoss and I'm not even close to a level where I can evaluate builds in that way, but the reason zergs go for a third hatch immediately is because there's literally nothing the protoss can do about it after a forge expand and the zerg macro mechanics make it far better for the zerg than the protoss. I wouldn't call the matchup imbalanced at this point, it takes very very good play from the zerg to make the gameplan strong enough that protoss should feel helpless, but I think eventually, the pros will become so good at reacting and reading protoss tells that we'll have a standard zerg gameplan which will be extremely hard for protoss to beat. Will toss need to be buffed at that point? Maybe, but I think we first need to wait until this "imbalance" is more visible in the pro tournaments, then we need to wait for protoss reactions to that situation. If it turns out that there's no way out of it, that's when we could start discussing buffs. Protoss is balanced really stupidly, to be blunt. Aside from timing pushes (most of which are now useless) Protoss is always weak in the early game. Mostly because if their units were strong warp tech becomes too good. So to compensate, P lategame is super strong and almost unbeatable given equal econ. As a result P is statistically balanced, but imbalanced at the start and end. | ||
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Xaldarian
Netherlands65 Posts
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 15 2012 20:17 roym899 wrote: /sign When Toss goes for a 6-7 Gate All-In you have a REALLY hard time defending that push, u have to hit EVERY injection and get out the right units, without knowing if there will be 7 Stalkers or 7 Zaelots next. Stephano is one of the best players out there. It's nothing wrong with the fact he destroys all Protosses on ladder as those are mostly Top Masters players not nearly as good as him. A buff for toss would be ok imho but only for the early game - mid game. In the lategame it's P which is favored. Mass Colossus and Mass Blinkstalkers is so tough to deal with and most likely impossible when you don't have any Broodlords and even with Mass Roach and Zerglings it's really hard to punish a turtleing Toss. I wouldn't say protoss is favored in the lategame. Only when you have a huge eco advantadge going into late game, because there is not really an efficient way to trade with infestor/broodlord unless you hit a magic vortex and the zerg decides to move all his broodlords in | ||
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Jumonji
France60 Posts
Be honnest Toss , zerg beat you easily because you are doing the exact same push since the patch that buffed the immortal. So of course we know we can macro if you never harass us before 9:00. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:26 Jumonji wrote: No one talking about double stargate opening? Be honnest Toss , zerg beat you easily because you are doing the exact same push since the patch that buffed the immortal. So of course we know we can macro if you never harass us before 9:00. Double stargate is really easy to scout and very easy to defend if you know it's coming... and wastes a ton of protoss resources if it's defended. | ||
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
I see that more and more protosses are doing retarded 2 bases like: 6gate standart 6gate blink 8gate HUK 6gate +robo 6gate + 2robo That kind of builds that dont transition in 3rd,they are just ment to kill your opponent. I've watched Feast's IEM Replays vZ and i must say that he beated DarkForce i think 2games with 6-7gate blink,which is ridiculous,just because any mid master+++++ can do it.It seems so much alike my 6-7gate blink its not even laughable. What we need to do is to find a suitable macro style vs zerg.I really enjoy macro,only dislike it in PVP where it just becomes colosuss fest. Anyway,Koreans seem to play much more macro than EU,NA players. | ||
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decerto
244 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:52 decerto wrote: I guess a simple answer is don't open forge fe, open 1/3 gateway (depending on gas or not) expo so they cant take a third before 9-10mins or else you can kill the base/them with 7-8min 3gate pressure Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A decent Zerg can take a fast third even when you open gates first. Of course he'll have to stop droning much earlier compared to a FFE, but still, he'll be able to defend it if he doesn't mess up his scouting, and once the 3/4 gates pressure is defended, you're left behind in the dust eco wise. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:38 Crying wrote: I see that more and more protosses are doing retarded 2 bases like: 6gate standart 6gate blink 8gate HUK 6gate +robo 6gate + 2robo That kind of builds that dont transition in 3rd,they are just ment to kill your opponent. What is retarded about it? I really wonder. It's actually pretty much the best way to play ZvP: going all in off 2 base in 50% of the games or so. Otherwise the Z can just macro up on three bases in peace knowing there's no reason to ever be scared. | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:52 decerto wrote: I guess a simple answer is don't open forge fe, open 1/3 gateway (depending on gas or not) expo so they cant take a third before 9-10mins or else you can kill the base/them with 7-8min 3gate pressure On maps where FFE is insta-killed by a zerg roach busting I often open 3gate exp... But there's 3 scenarios which can happen after this: 1: He went hatch first and I can't punish him in any way --> I'm behind 2: He went pool --> hatch --> I'm behind 3: He went pool + gas --> speed --> I'm on equal footing and can safely take my natural. It will still be later than his, but it's honestly not that bad. But I don't like the output of this. You have to play really well. Clear towers. Threaten with your army (like 4zlots / 6 sentries / 2 stalkers)... the issue is him suddenly go all out crazy only lings. Sure, the P army is good against that. But on a worse eco he can eventually overrun your army which means, you'll lose all your sentries, which is almost gg... I think FFE is the way to go. But I often time goes 2gate zealots with +1, so I can pressure with 5zlots. It's really good and either forces a ton of units or straight up kills alot of drones. The downside of this build is the late late warpgate. It struggles against some timings. | ||
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