EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
|
VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
| ||
|
Qxz
Canada189 Posts
Another alternative would be to put pressure on Z's 3rd with stargate or some kind of pre-9 minute attack: blink stalkers, immortal-stalker-sentry push, etc. Even if you don't kill it, you at least deny him some dronage which will in turn buy you time to build that deathball. Some of these pushes are extremely hard to hold; I see IdrA dying to immortal all-ins all the time. Just my 2c as a Zerg player. There's nothing I like to see more than a Protoss letting me do whatever I want and wandering out on the map with his army when I just maxed out. Auto-win. | ||
|
memcpy
United States459 Posts
xNmemcpy.741 | ||
|
OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:50 Xequecal wrote: This is not beatable on the majority of maps aside from 1 base cheese. Colossus can of course beat the roaches, but then he can just switch to mutas and kill you. You need a choke that you can completely block with a 2-3 forcefields, this allows you to make far fewer sentries and spend the gas on tech. There's absolutely no way to beat this strategy on maps like Metalopolis. Temple, Entombed, and CK are maps that you can beat this on for that reason, but you cannot fight roaches without a small choke until you have three bases. Gate expand is far too weak, the problem is still you waste shitloads of gas on sentries that don't do any DPS, combined with stalkers that don't do any DPS, and zealots that can't hit anything unless your FFs are perfect. If you could somehow gate expand on like 3 or 4 sentries and not die as opposed to having to make 8-10, it would be viable. To be maxed on roaches at 12 minutes the zerg can't just switch to mutas Roaches cost gas and supply and larva its not that easy to just switch and try to use mutas on you. If anything the Zerg will make corrupters and transition slowly to infestor broodlord | ||
|
OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:55 Forbidden17 wrote: I say that biting my tongue because I know the metagame used to be 3gateFE but that has sorta gone out of style (for good reason) and 1gateFE is border-line suicide vs gas openings. Not even all-ins, just heavy ling pressure can be really hard to hold for a 1gateFE it usually forces toss to 3gate FE upon scouting gas. Maybe naniwa will show us some crazy builds in his showmatch ^_^ Well i play Zerg so im cheering for stephano  | ||
|
Bearwidme
Australia57 Posts
| ||
|
-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
I've had some success with Genius's stargate 3rd base pvz build, but i run into a similar problem, the zerg can just get 65 drones +1+1 and spam roach hydra at your third base (maxxed at 13 minutes) and often times kill you or do too much damage even if you have a colossus when it hits. May be time to just go back to 2 base all ins until the meta game stabalizes / we get better maps. HuK's 8 gate still kills way too many high master zergs.. | ||
|
phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
| ||
|
Benjamin80
581 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:16 ShakAttaK wrote: To be maxed on roaches at 12 minutes the zerg can't just switch to mutas Roaches cost gas and supply and larva its not that easy to just switch and try to use mutas on you. If anything the Zerg will make corrupters and transition slowly to infestor broodlord Yeps thats another problem with the stephano build. If you just play defensive on 3 bases and max up with a deathball. The zerg just gonna expand and spine like crazy. Try to snipe you 3rd with massive roach army and then go infestor/broodlords. On March 15 2012 17:19 AegiS_ wrote: Going for gateway expo's with quick timings after them could certainly through the zergs timing's off (they cant go for fast 3rd no gas, and have to get gas quicker in general). However, I'm not willing to give up on forge FE just yet. I've had some success with Genius's stargate 3rd base pvz build, but i run into a similar problem, the zerg can just get 65 drones +1+1 and spam roach hydra at your third base (maxxed at 13 minutes) and often times kill you or do too much damage even if you have a colossus when it hits. May be time to just go back to 2 base all ins until the meta game stabalizes / we get better maps. HuK's 8 gate still kills way too many high master zergs.. The build is designed to be able to defend against all 2 base allins and got the options to deny the 3rd. I have seen Stephano hold off so many 2 base allins. When I see protoss trying a 2 base allin vs Stephano I know Stephano are allrdy the winner unless he do huge micro mistakes | ||
|
Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:25 TheNessman wrote: Elfi's idea was to build up a large sentry force (he had like 10-15 sentries?) and then push out with some immortals and +1 with zealot reinforcement. I think it was like FFE, 3gates+robo, a few more gates and then push at 8 or 9 mins? it was robotics soon as cubernetics core finished, chrono out immortals and make sentries, when third immortals finishes push out with 3 immortals and 7 gates, shit loads of sentries | ||
|
Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
I know warp prisms piss me off to no end when I don't have any real anti-air. Just one warp prism isn't a big enough threat though, because you can have one small group of units defending the most vulnerable spot and minor static defense. Two warp prisms scares me. What about that two base mothership build? Does that give zerg too much time? | ||
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Anyways, its standard zvp now. To me, it feels really good, if not OP. You can just roach your way through almost anything the protoss does, especially going carapace first. Of course, its a bit map dependant, and relies on forge first. I actually base my map vetos on ladder around ZvP, I don't play taldarim altar or shattered temple because this style of play just doesn't work well on rocks-at-3rd maps. It also comes down to unit control and tactics of course, aggressive forcefields can be horrible or they can instantly win you the game. I don't think you can just take a quick 3rd, You really have to do some aggression/sharking before the warp-gate timing. The things I have trouble defending are: -Immortal timing attacks (this ones a no brainer, it doesn't have to be all-in but you're probably looking to kill the zerg 3rd before taking your own - this means a late third, 12:00 or later. could be with/without blink) -MC-style sentry/Zealot timings (a bit map dependant, but particularly effective on cloud kingdom because it only takes 2 FF's to connect the ramp wall to the hatchery) -"Genius Style" 1stargate pressure (Always take SOME damage from it, phoenix count discourages early mutas, seems like the safest ticket to a macro game) -Early Zealot pressure (easy to crush the zealots with slow-lings but its not a trade we want to make, the exponential macro growth of this build is really stifled by having to make lings early.. 4 larva on early lings easily translates to 10 fewer drones at the magic 8:00 mark.) -???? (encountered some weird builds lately, hard to deal with them just because of how uncommon/unexpected they are. 2gate zealotspam expo, phoenix/DT, etc.. probably pretty bad but do more damage than they should) The things I love to see when doing this build are: -Dark shrine (basically a free win so long as i'm aware of it) -2base colossus all-in, with or without warp prism pressure (Switch to mutas earlier, collect free win) -2stargate voidrays (make mutas, free win) -Gateway expand instead of forge expand (don't take 3rd, flood speedlings, free win) anyways, im just a scrub low masters zerg, but I have seen some pretty crazy/random shit out of protoss players lately so y'all must be getting desperate. It took zerg a long ass time to figure out how to properly deal with FFE(over a year really), hopefully you guys figure this out a bit quicker  | ||
|
sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: 1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well) otherwise you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches. things that beat roaches: air blink stalkers with sim city to blink around immortals any of the above + forcefields if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered Got any link to the Titan - Stephano game? The problem with opening stargate is that you think you are safe against roaches because you have void rays, but you are not | ||
|
iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
| ||
|
Partypants
Australia50 Posts
| ||
|
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:16 ShakAttaK wrote: To be maxed on roaches at 12 minutes the zerg can't just switch to mutas Roaches cost gas and supply and larva its not that easy to just switch and try to use mutas on you. If anything the Zerg will make corrupters and transition slowly to infestor broodlord The thing is, they can actually just switch to mutas. If Protoss invests in colossus tech, he's dead to mutas without a third base. As soon as you see a robotics bay, stop roach production, start spire, take your fifth and sixth gas, and just start massing muta/ling when the spire finishes. Colossi take 75 seconds to build. He can't start his third due to your roach mass until he has at least two colossi out, and you can have your spire done before two are out. If he goes for a third, just trade all your roaches for the third's nexus while your mutalisks destroy his economy in his main. If he tries to counterattack you, you can just base trade him with your mutas. If he's staying on 2 bases, just expand all over the map and base trade him when he moves out. Protoss cannot make the required number of early game sentries then go for colossus tech and still have the gas to counter mutas on 2 bases. You need blink and templar for that, not to mention a lot more stalkers than usual, and the gas just isn't there. If you don't play Protoss you don't understand what kind of a drain 50 gas stalkers are. You simply can't get both templar and colossus tech on two bases. | ||
|
Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
| ||
|
Benjamin80
581 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:32 darkscream wrote: I wouldn't call this "Stephano style" necessarily since pretty much all the top-tier zergs started playing PVZ like this around the same time. DRG and Nestea do it as well. I'd have called it DRG-style, as I learned the timings myself after he won Code S. Anyways, its standard zvp now. To me, it feels really good, if not OP. You can just roach your way through almost anything the protoss does, especially going carapace first. Of course, its a bit map dependant, and relies on forge first. I actually base my map vetos on ladder around ZvP, I don't play taldarim altar or shattered temple because this style of play just doesn't work well on rocks-at-3rd maps. It also comes down to unit control and tactics of course, aggressive forcefields can be horrible or they can instantly win you the game. I don't think you can just take a quick 3rd, You really have to do some aggression/sharking before the warp-gate timing. The things I have trouble defending are: -Immortal timing attacks (this ones a no brainer, it doesn't have to be all-in but you're probably looking to kill the zerg 3rd before taking your own - this means a late third, 12:00 or later. could be with/without blink) -MC-style sentry/Zealot timings (a bit map dependant, but particularly effective on cloud kingdom because it only takes 2 FF's to connect the ramp wall to the hatchery) -"Genius Style" 1stargate pressure (Always take SOME damage from it, phoenix count discourages early mutas, seems like the safest ticket to a macro game) -Early Zealot pressure (easy to crush the zealots with slow-lings but its not a trade we want to make, the exponential macro growth of this build is really stifled by having to make lings early.. 4 larva on early lings easily translates to 10 fewer drones at the magic 8:00 mark.) -???? (encountered some weird builds lately, hard to deal with them just because of how uncommon/unexpected they are. 2gate zealotspam expo, phoenix/DT, etc.. probably pretty bad but do more damage than they should) The things I love to see when doing this build are: -Dark shrine (basically a free win so long as i'm aware of it) -2base colossus all-in, with or without warp prism pressure (Switch to mutas earlier, collect free win) -2stargate voidrays (make mutas, free win) -Gateway expand instead of forge expand (don't take 3rd, flood speedlings, free win) anyways, im just a scrub low masters zerg, but I have seen some pretty crazy/random shit out of protoss players lately so y'all must be getting desperate. It took zerg a long ass time to figure out how to properly deal with FFE(over a year really), hopefully you guys figure this out a bit quicker Stephano have done this for 4 months and he introduced this to the koreans when he was in Korea. DRG learned this from stephano ill promise you that. But I think you really have to delay is 3rd abit with pylon block or even gateway blocks becuase if you leave the zerg alone for 8min then its a huge problem | ||
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On March 15 2012 18:19 Benjamin80 wrote: Stephano have done this for 4 months and he introduced this to the koreans when he was in Korea. DRG learned this from stephano ill promise you that. But I think you really have to delay is 3rd abit with pylon block or even gateway blocks becuase if you leave the zerg alone for 8min then its a huge problem what makes the DRG style distinct from stephano is the mutalisk followup as you take your 4th. Stephano rushes hive instead. Both might do pure roach/ling aggression though anyways i don't think pylon block is the right answer, zerg will have 4 lings to ensure they can take the quick double expand. but absolutely you have to pressure or harass.. the question is what is the best way to get that done? | ||
|
Forbidden17
666 Posts
On March 15 2012 17:32 darkscream wrote: I wouldn't call this "Stephano style" necessarily since pretty much all the top-tier zergs started playing PVZ like this around the same time. DRG and Nestea do it as well. I'd have called it DRG-style, as I learned the timings myself after he won Code S. Anyways, its standard zvp now. To me, it feels really good, if not OP. You can just roach your way through almost anything the protoss does, especially going carapace first. Of course, its a bit map dependant, and relies on forge first. I actually base my map vetos on ladder around ZvP, I don't play taldarim altar or shattered temple because this style of play just doesn't work well on rocks-at-3rd maps. It also comes down to unit control and tactics of course, aggressive forcefields can be horrible or they can instantly win you the game. I don't think you can just take a quick 3rd, You really have to do some aggression/sharking before the warp-gate timing. The things I have trouble defending are: -Immortal timing attacks (this ones a no brainer, it doesn't have to be all-in but you're probably looking to kill the zerg 3rd before taking your own - this means a late third, 12:00 or later. could be with/without blink) -MC-style sentry/Zealot timings (a bit map dependant, but particularly effective on cloud kingdom because it only takes 2 FF's to connect the ramp wall to the hatchery) -"Genius Style" 1stargate pressure (Always take SOME damage from it, phoenix count discourages early mutas, seems like the safest ticket to a macro game) -Early Zealot pressure (easy to crush the zealots with slow-lings but its not a trade we want to make, the exponential macro growth of this build is really stifled by having to make lings early.. 4 larva on early lings easily translates to 10 fewer drones at the magic 8:00 mark.) -???? (encountered some weird builds lately, hard to deal with them just because of how uncommon/unexpected they are. 2gate zealotspam expo, phoenix/DT, etc.. probably pretty bad but do more damage than they should) anyways, im just a scrub low masters zerg, but I have seen some pretty crazy/random shit out of protoss players lately so y'all must be getting desperate. It took zerg a long ass time to figure out how to properly deal with FFE(over a year really), hopefully you guys figure this out a bit quicker Why carapace first? +1 range gives +2atk on roaches while +1 carapace only adds 1 armor. Anyways, the problem of ealy zealot pressure is it's not reliable and can often be fended off without taking much damage. If you are referring to +1 4gate pressure that is covered by a 7min roach warren. A +1 4gate is held off with just 5 speedless roaches and the toss is definitely behind if it's held off convincingly. I'm not terribly familiar with the timings of MC's sentry/zealot pressure so I won't comment on that. An early voidray from stagate play does deter roach all-ins, but does little against a 160-200 supply roach army... 4-5 phoenixes can be kept at bay with an extra round of queens plus 2 spores at each base. Sure, it puts the zerg behind a little, but it doesn't compare to how far it puts the toss behind in his standing army. He won't have much of anything vs roach spam in a couple of minutes. | ||
| ||
