EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 4
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:16 Mentalizor wrote: On maps where FFE is insta-killed by a zerg roach busting I often open 3gate exp... But there's 3 scenarios which can happen after this: 1: He went hatch first and I can't punish him in any way --> I'm behind 2: He went pool --> hatch --> I'm behind 3: He went pool + gas --> speed --> I'm on equal footing and can safely take my natural. It will still be later than his, but it's honestly not that bad. But I don't like the output of this. You have to play really well. Clear towers. Threaten with your army (like 4zlots / 6 sentries / 2 stalkers)... the issue is him suddenly go all out crazy only lings. Sure, the P army is good against that. But on a worse eco he can eventually overrun your army which means, you'll lose all your sentries, which is almost gg... I think FFE is the way to go. But I often time goes 2gate zealots with +1, so I can pressure with 5zlots. It's really good and either forces a ton of units or straight up kills alot of drones. The downside of this build is the late late warpgate. It struggles against some timings. Pylon scout and if you see gasless expand you can 1gate expand, or you can pylon his nat and force a pool + gas expand | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
In the second replay, he cut drones seeing your very early third and tried to punish and allin you for that. It has nothing to do with sticking to stephano style, which, would he kept to that plan, might have actually killed you even more because you invested too much in eco and even less in army with a 2base style, and you can't profit too much from your third until a bit later. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
The first replay is a really good example of Stephano's build, but I don't think better FF would have turned the game. He was already maxed at 12' after all, and he even had similar upgrades.. I think one of the problems was the lack of pressure before 12', there was a pylon attempt for what I guess was some zealots pressure, but he had really good map control so it didn't happen  | ||
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:22 NrGmonk wrote: You should post a better replay. I expected a decent game, but pretty much the only reason you lost is because you missed forcefields. In the last fight, none of your forcefields really mattered, so your 16 supply of sentries were useless. Plus I don't know what you were trying to do. If it was an allin, it was very late and inefficient. If it was meant to take a third, I'm confused at your movements, and that map is pretty impossible for taking a 3rd anyways. If you don't know how Stephano's ZvP style works, where have you been living these past months? The replay doesn't even matter because it's all about the idea. I get the feeling that you can beat this style if you have MC's forcefields. If you hit the forcefields just right you can stop almost anything, yet all the zerg has to do is stream units towards you. If you miss one forcefield, you get overrun, which isn't actually a bad thing perse, because it makes you want to practise forcefield usage even more | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:34 Meovin- wrote: If you don't know how Stephano's ZvP style works, where have you been living these past months? The replay doesn't even matter because it's all about the idea. I get the feeling that you can beat this style if you have MC's forcefields. If you hit the forcefields just right you can stop almost anything, yet all the zerg has to do is stream units towards you. If you miss one forcefield, you get overrun, which isn't actually a bad thing perse, because it makes you want to practise forcefield usage even more Of course I know how Stephano's ZvP style works... | ||
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:37 NrGmonk wrote: Of course I know how Stephano's ZvP style works... Then why do you comment on the replay when the OP clearly said it's not a Help thread but a Discussion thread | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
EDIT: Alternatively when a (>= GM level) zerg denies protoss early third, even though protoss anticipated the attack and played near optimal. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:38 Meovin- wrote: Then why do you comment on the replay when the OP clearly said it's not a Help thread but a Discussion thread Because it doesn't properly show the strength of the build. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:41 NrGmonk wrote: Because it doesn't properly show the strength of the build. But we all know the strength of the build, we don't need a perfect replay to demonstrate it, that's the point. This is specifically a discussion thread on something that we all know how it looks. Let's not be difficult, eh? | ||
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Billiboes
Netherlands5 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The way to handle this type of play imo is simply to go quick stargate to force a spore at each base at least and then get a quick third yourself. If you wall off properly at the third plus start your sentry count on time you can hold this off just fine. A void plus a few phoenixes are really good at deterring a slow roach push and by the time he comes with speedroaches you should be getting immortal and/or colossi out as well already. Good FF usage plus smart walling to prevent multi-prong attacks will stop a roach push on the third. Robo openings in general are a bit poor imo for PvZ, you can't really provide pressure or scout fast with it and you can't comfortably take a third because you have nothing for map presence. Stargate into robo is imo strictly better: stargate provides some pressure at their third at least wasting him some money on spores or hydra's, stargate is better at defending 2 base pushes so you can tech more greedy towards it and stargate is much better for taking the third as a voidray on the path between them and your third helps tremendously to stop a roach push. Wallin + some air units + sentries with robo units on the way is the way to secure a third in PvZ imo, sentries + wall stop ling pressure while voids + ff + incoming robo units stop roach attacks. A wall simply buys time while your voids and phoenixes pick off some units. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:06 SaroVati wrote: Well as Stephano stated on SOTG, he thinks that PvZ is heavily Z favoured and Blizzard should buff protoss to even it out, so it might not be just we are all playing poorly  thats just wrong. he said that HE has no problem with protoss, not that PvZ is Z favoured, which as results show isnt at all the case. and he said that protoss should have more viable strategies. he later was ask on his opinion to phoenix, which sucks as he mentioned. so what he wanted to say is for example: buff phoenix etc. but not like buff stalker so 2 base all ins are even stronger. right now 2 base all ins are really strong, macrogames with fast third are pretty weak. just let the metagame (--> the players) do its work and lets see how the MU works out in 1-2 months. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 15 2012 23:12 Billiboes wrote: how about going 3gate or 1 gate expand while getting high templar and storm after the nexus. this way you have allot of minerals to make a fast third and allot of cannons with AOE to stop mass zergling and slow roaches and defend against muta. then the transition into blink stalker archon is easy. the problem i see then is no detection but with proper cannon placement it shouldnt be a problem? I can't be sure but I would think that: 1. It would be scouted. 2. It would take too long for the toss to get enough templars with enough storms, the zerg would rush in. Speeding for templar with storm leaves you with only zealots for defence, roaches will overrun you so easily. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On March 15 2012 23:27 Decendos wrote: thats just wrong. he said that HE has no problem with protoss, not that PvZ is Z favoured, which as results show isnt at all the case. and he said that protoss should have more viable strategies. he later was ask on his opinion to phoenix, which sucks as he mentioned. so what he wanted to say is for example: buff phoenix etc. but not like buff stalker so 2 base all ins are even stronger. right now 2 base all ins are really strong, macrogames with fast third are pretty weak. just let the metagame (--> the players) do its work and lets see how the MU works out in 1-2 months. He did say it favours Zerg... but then again he said he has no build order, and he just builds things when he's feeling it (if you look at his games I highly doubt that). I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt  But I agree, this victimization that Protoss players continue to fall for is both ridiculous and destructive for them. Too bad Stephano decided to feed that. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:39 VoirDire wrote: Can someone post a (>= GM level) replay/vod where protoss successfully takes and holds an early 3rd vs a 3 base roach pressure? EDIT: Alternatively when a (>= GM level) zerg denies protoss early third, even though protoss anticipated the attack and played near optimal. GSL finals game 1? http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66959 The way genius plays it is the best solution for this problem imo. Open with some voids/phoenix while building up sentries after an FFE. Then get third while getting robo using your gateway units + air to deflect the first roach attack. (only thing I dislike about genius style is the fast twilight council, it's useless that early on in this style) Key things here imo are 1) Focus on units first, don't get unneccesary infrastructure or upgrades early on yet, for example don't bother with +armor or twilight or getting 6 gateways, you need to set up position at the third first (you only need 3 to 4 gates early on) 2) simcity at the third, using gates 4 to 7 for this is ideal as they are the best buffer building. Korhal compound it's slightly harder because of the position of the third but still very possible. Key is to wall off the third with 3 gateways. Because there is some small debris on the high ground zerg practically can't chip away at your gates from the highground. Walling off at the third I always recommend to place 1 cannon with 1 gap behind the wall so that roaches can not hit it, they can pick off the gateways without getting hit then but you'll be having air units to prevent that. The wall is only there to buy time and make it easier to catch the roaches in a funnel. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On March 15 2012 20:29 aebriol wrote: Have you really studied how MC plays the matchup? Because he just doesn't lose to zerg it seems. Stephano style relies on you not breaking through on a committed 2 base all in. He takes risks in order to have an extreme lategame, based off whatever scouting information he can get. Right now there are two zergs that really knows how to play ZvP: DRG and Stephano. All zergs are pretty much copying them. IMHO, DRG is even better than Stephano in that he takes slightly less risks it seems. Stephano style to me relies more on the opponent not doing the optimal thing (like, getting drone kills before they are transferred away - he always gives up his hatch and saves his drones). Have you seen on Whitera's stream? He seems to beat Stephano a fair bit (not the majority of the game, but I've seen him win quite a few times when I watch Stephano) <- Game 1, WhiteRa wins.Stephano goes on to win the series. In addition, watching Genius in the last GSL really shows how to beat Zerg (he lost in the final more because he was indecisive and mindgamed himself, more than DRG outplaying him, but watching his whole run, he has a lot of good vs zerg builds). Did you watch last IEM? Check out MC vs Violet as well. That Stephano believes Z is favored in ZvP, means it's his best matchup, but I don't think general evidence support it. White-Ra was doing well but Stephano wasn't doing his roach build (typically). Yesterday, he was something like 1-10 against Stephano and Stephano was, for a couple of the games I saw, sticking on just lings against Colossus-Zealot-Sentry-Stalker to around the 15 minute mark (and having to scramble as a result but still it was pretty epic). Stephano is just a lot better than non-Korean Protosses. No one executes the maxed at 12 minute roach-ling as well as he does, including DRG (who usually opts for a fourth gas sooner than Stephano, unless Stephano is teching to broods). (Caveat: I play zerg.) In any case, if you want to beat the Stephano roach build and you know your opponent is going that build, then simply build as many sentries and immortals as you can -- do not try to take a third -- and attack around 10-11 minutes. I would fake like I was going to take a third to coax hopefully drones out of my opponent (or at least put pylons down or something to that effect and then move out). Elfi beat Stephano with this build at ASUS ROG; this is the hard counter to Stephano's build (and Stephano even whined a bit that Elfi blind-countered him after the game). I don't play protoss but here are a couple tells that someone is going the Stephano build -- the third is taken around 4:30, lair around 7-7:30, evo and roach warren around the same time, no more than three gasses and you shouldn't see any upgrades other than +1 range -- +1 melee indicates (at least with Stephano) that he's playing for the late game and planning on turtling. You cannot max at 12:00 if you take more than three gasses (at least I haven't seen it done and don't think it works out unless you're completely left alone). Of course the problem for protoss is how you scout the natural and main to determine whether Zerg is doing this. I can't help you there. Interestingly Stephano and White-Ra played an off race game where Stephano went 7or 8 gate +2 blink stalkers (on Cloud Kingdom) and then pressured White-Ra with it while taking a third behind it. The build seemed pretty well executed, and White-Ra was doing the Stephano roach build (and executing it in the early game reasonably well). I mention this only because it would at least stand to reason that, if anyone can figure out the weakness in his build, it would be Stephano. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
If I FFE, I go +1, zealot pressure/scout to clear towers and check expo etc into some really quick 6gate pressure and tech behind it (not impossible on 6gates) If I can't FFE I go 1gate expo with only 1 gas against gasless expand builds into really quick 6gate all-in aswell If they go 14g/14p I am really scared and usually resort to 1gate expand sentry-heavy which is balls but I have no idea how to handle it. 3gate just makes me so behind in eco. Bottom line, basically all my PvZ revolve around really fast 6ish gate pressure or allin because that's when I feel toss really is strongest. It works fine at my level against high master/gm but maybe not at top-tier. | ||
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