On March 16 2012 01:22 Docta Spaceman wrote: kcdc, have you stopped using the stalkerless PvZ guide you posted before, involving the fast storm at 11minutes? + Show Spoiler +
I was under the impression that this would hold roach pressure like you mentioned at your third if played super cleanly, but you're the author of that thread, so has something changed that I'm not seeing?
The ability to take the third was on the strength of the zealot+void pressure, but Zergs have figured that pressure out now. If a Z holds the pressure producing just a couple extra queens and a few roaches, they'll have enough economy to deny your third.
On March 16 2012 01:08 VoirDire wrote: I don't think stargate is the way to go tbh. When stephano streamed a marathon against mana he just added hydras whenever mana went stargate and the push was even more one-sided due to P having wasted a lot of gas into air units.
Hydra's mean additional tech costs for Z though and make the zerg army very slow. Besides phoenix aren't even bad against hydra's in small numbers.
Hydra den is 100/100 and builds in just 40 seconds. You can start it and take 4 gas as soon as you see a stargate unit and the push won't be delayed at all, nor much weaker.
kcdc, I have watched endless of Stephano's stream, all his matches vs Protoss recently, and played with the style in low masters every single ZvP for the past... 30 ZvPs. I can say with near 100% certainty that there is no way you can afford a third base against this style.
I think the answer is a FFE --> robo --> 7 gate --> sentry immortal.
You're literally going to turtle the fuck out of your second base and hold with tons of sentries and constant immortal pumping. Of course, the Zerg will try to either rush BLs, infestors, or muta switch, which is why you NEED to get an obs out early and sit on his Lair and look for his tech path. Once you see that spire, know that upon completion, you have about a 1-2 minute window before the muta count gets above 10, which in my experience is enough to threaten the base trade. Same with infestor tech.
The thing about the Stephano style is I see Tosses trying to go Blink while taking a third, or push with 120 supply sentry immortal against 200 supply. Like, are you kidding me? You have to TURTLE. Stephano delays tech so much to max out that you cannot expect to take a third until at least 14-16 mins when you get enough supply and forcefields to make roach/ling irrelevant. You can then take a third and tech depending on his follow up, or just go and kill him before he gets enough mutas/infestors.
I think the only way to hold this effectively is immortal/sentry/stalker until you've secured your third. i think pumping immortals gives you enough gas to get a lot for sentries out. once you've held his 200/200 roach push, you can transition to templar tech straight away unless you scout hydras. (or maybe even if you scout hydras?)
i'm not sure you can reactively go collosus in time to counter hydras though. also, i have only had success with this on entombed valley, where the 3rd is basically free to take and zerg has to attack into an awful choke just to get torn up by ff's. i think the fact of the matter is without lots of FF's on other maps you're just gonna die to this.
i'm actually of the impression that we're relying too heavily on collosus here. is there really any need for them except against maybe mass speedling?
Idea: lots of immortals=> more gas for sentries, delay tech until you know you're not going to die. don't miss a muta tech switch. i think a fast blink would be very good too.
To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
I've been watching sentry/immortal games, and it seems that they mostly work when Z switches to army production too late and doesn't have enough army to force a fight in the open areas in the middle of the map. By the time Z has enough army to fight, P is already in Z's third and abusing forcefields.
But that's just overdroning. Check out this VOD to see how easily Z wins if he switches to army production at 60 drones.
If Z produces army early, they can force the fight in open areas on P's side of the map with plenty of time to remax. Compare that replay to this one from the same set:
Here, Stephano overdrones and can't engage the sentry/immortal army before it's in his third.
On March 16 2012 01:43 Flonomenalz wrote: kcdc, I have watched endless of Stephano's stream, all his matches vs Protoss recently, and played with the style in low masters every single ZvP for the past... 30 ZvPs. I can say with near 100% certainty that there is no way you can afford a third base against this style.
I think the answer is a FFE --> robo --> 7 gate --> sentry immortal.
You're literally going to turtle the fuck out of your second base and hold with tons of sentries and constant immortal pumping. Of course, the Zerg will try to either rush BLs, infestors, or muta switch, which is why you NEED to get an obs out early and sit on his Lair and look for his tech path. Once you see that spire, know that upon completion, you have about a 1-2 minute window before the muta count gets above 10, which in my experience is enough to threaten the base trade. Same with infestor tech.
The thing about the Stephano style is I see Tosses trying to go Blink while taking a third, or push with 120 supply sentry immortal against 200 supply. Like, are you kidding me? You have to TURTLE. Stephano delays tech so much to max out that you cannot expect to take a third until at least 14-16 mins when you get enough supply and forcefields to make roach/ling irrelevant. You can then take a third and tech depending on his follow up, or just go and kill him before he gets enough mutas/infestors.
I imagine you can build a nice deathball on two bases and just kill him with it too, Cruncher style (which is what I like to do anyway after opening Gate first and putting on some quick pressure). He has delayed tech so much to get those Roaches, who are great vs low Tier units, but 4+ Colossus and Void Rays would eat em up.
On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: 1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air blink stalkers with sim city to blink around immortals any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack.
The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes.
Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped
Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural
8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back
If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third
Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg.
FGL is correct on this matter i've played a bunch of high level korean protosses on the korean server and they seem to do the same thing. Ive watched the reps to see if there were in vulnerable points and I noticed they cut probes etc. This is extremely valuable advice that all protoss should follow
I've seen a lot of people talk about go for 2 base timings. I was doing this exclusively for a while - different variants, blink/immo, blink/col, gateway/void, etc. And it was working very well in mid/high masters - like 90% win rate. It would ROFL stomp roaches even with a commanding supply lead. However, these 2 base timings are working much less effectively. Basically, zergs are getting smart and they hide their army somewhere. When you move out and are midway through map, they attack your natural. So you have to pull back because you can't win a base trade. Once you pull back and kill that army and re-sim city a little, your timing attack is effectively over, because zerg has remassed and respined in the meantime. I think you will see zergs do this much more often. Before, zergs would camp their initial army and defend, but that would result in an auto-win. Its really the delay by attacking your natural when you move out.
I am looking for a new 3 base build, but this thread makes me dissappointed because I know how tough this roach pressure can be. Especially with muta switch. How do you beat zergs nowadays?
As a Zerg player, all you have to do is either 7 or 8 gate all-in. Or turtle up to a death ball on two bases, and a move into the Z's main. Or go for Immortal all-ins. Once you get your third and deny Z's 4th, which isn't hard (you just move your deathball wherever he expands), you've won the game because of how cost efficient P units are compared to Z's.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
Just used this build a few times today and wow, taking a third is auto loss. Theres no way to defend both locations when I split my roach force in half. Stargate is auto loss to, because with a quick 3 hatch I can get a ton of queens fast plus I have the evo chamber up for the upgrades anyways and there army is weaker at the front so I can just A move in.
One thing that is annoying is warp prism play tho, espcially when its aimed at the 10-12 minute mark where the Z is being very aggresive, if you can snipe his 3rd while staying safe with FF at your front you can ruin his remax capabilities then slowly work your way towards a third.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
Well I dunno, you seemed to have completely misunderstood what was said, so I thought I should clarify.
2 base pressure (which you said) implies the intention of transitioning, and is something completely different from 2 base committed all in with no obvious transitioning path available. The builds work out very differently. You should know this. If you don't know the difference, then you really need to work on your builds. And that's not me being mean, that's just because you execute those two different build types very ,very differently.
And you are guessing wrong about the build Titan use in the posted game. It's a 4 gate into 7:40 3rd nexus, with robotics, and holding pressure with a combination of unit control (in particular, immortal and forcefields), sim city, and decision making.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure.
We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit).
You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 02:10 Fenneth wrote:
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
Well I dunno, you seemed to have completely misunderstood what was said, so I thought I should clarify.
2 base pressure (which you said) implies the intention of transitioning, and is something completely different from 2 base committed all in with no obvious transitioning path available. The builds work out very differently. You should know this. If you don't know the difference, then you really need to work on your builds. And that's not me being mean, that's just because you execute those two different build types very ,very differently.
And you are guessing wrong about the build Titan use in the posted game. It's a 4 gate into 7:40 3rd nexus, with robotics, and holding pressure with a combination of unit control (in particular, immortal and forcefields), sim city, and decision making.
In response to the first part, yes, I know what an all-in is. Sorry if my term 'pressure' confused you--I was trying to address as wide a group of builds as possible. I'd consider a 2-base all-in to fall into the broader category of 2-base pressure.
7 or 8 minute third with some gates and a robo is exactly the type of build I think might stand a fighting chance. Looking forward to checking it out.
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote: To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself?
On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: 1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air blink stalkers with sim city to blink around immortals any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack.
The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes.
Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped
Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural
8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back
If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third
Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg.
here is the problem as I see it. Sure you can get an army out to deal with a 3 hatch roach zerg BUT by the time you have that army (immortal, FF, blink stalkers , + 2) the zergs econ and tech will be so disgusting that he will just roll you over with hive tech. By the time you have the army to secure that third base against near max roach army you will be so far from a mothership+archons (as you will not have the additional 2 gas for a long time) that BL/infestor/spine is unbeatable with your "midgame" army.... Thus we see the trend of a players dieing trying to get up that third or two base timings to kill the zergs third.....
The only thing I've been making work against zerg is a damn near pure sg play to help me take a third uncontested after the FFE. Essentially you try and dictate their composition by forcing anti air units out. Things that counter it, drops (nydus also) and early roach allins (which you typically don't see with zergs going for fast thirds) ..... At my skill lvl most zergs do one of two things. Overreact to the sg (spores, faster spire/infestation pit or even hyrdas). I've found it actually work to your advantage if they overcompensate for the sg play as they may have enough to contest your dominance in the skies but will likewise lack the ground army to actually kill your bases which should have cannons out the wazoo (picture a muta/ling zerg player hiding behind spines and doing his best to keep you in your base). on the flip side if they don't overreact you are very vulnerable to being worn down by mass roaches....
Think about Genius vs DRG where on entombed he went dbl sg phx into carrier. I believe that DRG got lucky by blind countering the bld but it has potential!
I honestly don't understand how people can reasonably suggest two base timings as a solution to this build--the hallmarks of this style are faster gases and a (comparatively) lower drone count. These are the two things that give you the best chance of beating a two base attack.
Three hatch speed roach timings are my favorite build in zvp at the moment, and I can tell you with confidence that they usually shit all over:
Two base timings that hit around the 9ish minute mark Fast third off of zealot/stargate timing Fast third off robo Fast third off single stargate Stargate into collossus into third builds
I have trouble with double stargate play, but in my opinion it's because I personally have always had trouble with that opening, not because of any inherent weakness of the style.
Hey KcDc, I am a high master toss player on EU. I have been walking into this as well, 1 thing I noticed is that immortals are pretty good. I have been using 4gate+1 into robo+blink get 2 immortals while researching hallucination. With ur 4gate+1 you scout the gasses on the third(and if possible also on the natural). If you see 4 gasses you make immortals and obs after it. You wanna get a 10:30 third, directly build 3 cannons and scout with you hallucinations how many roaches he splits.
Then you have to split accordingly, if you make a mistake and lose to much at an engagement its gg. I find it extremely hard to hold and really easy to perform as a zerg player.
Not realizing that the specific build you are playing against, is optimized to beat any protoss playing trying to safely get to the late game.
I wanted to quote this cose is one of the most overlooked phrases in the post.
Imo, Stephano is right. Due to race desing, Z is allowed to get a huge eco lead taking just a few of of precautions (aka easy build order responses). Then Z have much more production that P, and cheaper efficent units with faster production. Yeah, all that together sounds like imbalance. And, sadly for us, Z's figured all this out.
So, playing to beat a in eco and production a race designed for that, is wrong.
Non-pro z's only need to learn the BO, practice the timings, and learn mr stephano reactions to every P threat, and they are good to go into "eco superiority/roach 1a aka zero micro/tech transition" heaven.
If you, P player, want the best build to match that kind of producition, eco, and sheer force, then, indeed, go and watch the Genius vs Drg Game 1 at Daybreak of GSL season 1 finals.
The catch? You need to outplay badly your opponent, as Genius did, microing like a god to the roach attack in 2 fronts, and multi tasking like a madman with his phoenixes; while the z do not need to do mayor roach micro and keep macroing.
Then, what to do?
The best answer imo is a solid push (not just pressure) to take down the 3rd (and maybe take the game).
What kind of push? Any one that hit between 8 and 10 minute. Options? 8 gate, 7 gate, blink, immorthal, stargate, depending the map. For example, on antiga or C-kingdom the 3rd makes a very good choke for any sentry based push. On tal darim, i was using a large variety, but now z's have learned. So now i pick a 7-8 gate huk style, super fast, cose the map is really open. Stargate allows to blind the z, that is worth of mencion too. Also, in any of the timings, fake pressure is a must. Moving a inital force of 2 or 3 units with a pylon, also a fake pylon in a visible spot for the z, all this is good to force unefficient larvae production (MC do this a LOT in his games)
Also gate-expo are pretty interesting to use now that most z's are using this style. I agree with Nony, 4g sentry pressure can secure a hatch kill, because z's are not used to play this style and overdrone following the actual zvp trend. "Speedling shower" can be tricky but is a pretty winnable scenario with good ff control, cose z will be behind.
I feel your pain kcdc, we all do : ( I'll love to play safe macro again!!
EPT
