EPThonestly i think kingdom is pretty terrible PvZ but thats another discussion
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 12
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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BoxedLunch
United States387 Posts
honestly i think kingdom is pretty terrible PvZ but thats another discussion | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On March 16 2012 04:55 kcdc wrote: The later you take the third, the bigger the food deficit will be when you're defending the third--at least until Z hits the 200 supply cap, at which point you can catch up a bit. The logic with a 7 or 8 minute third is that you'll have a bigger army when Z attacks at 12 minutes. That's the logic anyway. It may turn out that you just can't take a third until you have an army that can defend maxed roaches. Tht is all true but he is maxed on just roaches he can't do anything else with them after when I do this strat I run into problems with Toss being super defensive it's better to slowly take bases of you take a third too quick there is no way to stop them | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Good vortexes can really mess up your flanks and pick off those expensive corruptors. Most of the time I have to take a battle before corruptors though and the protoss allways trades super effectively I guess the downside would be that you're going to have less probes because of the mothership taking up probe building time. But you're going to have a decent count up since you go into it after a regular stargate opening. | ||
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Chelch
United Kingdom159 Posts
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Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:26 Chelch wrote: Sorry if this question has already been asked, but what do you guys think Titan would do vs fast mutalisks on 3 bases? It seems like his build goes for really fast immortals, and you don't have much scouting information. How does he know what Stephano is going to do? (spam roaches) He spams a bunch of stalkers. | ||
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Chelch
United Kingdom159 Posts
Right, but from what I see, he only sees whats going on at 10:30 (that is, he sees a roach). Isn't that a bit late? | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
I've been experimenting with a fake zealot pressure at around 7:50 only warping in 3-4 zealots so he has to make a bunch of lings and can't spam drones (you don't want to make more than 4 zealots, any more delays your third base which you want around 8:30). Meanwhile i deny scouting, get a third + robo and a twilight and chrono out attack upgrades. You need to make sure your infrastructure get's up as well to actually support your third base (a lot of gates). If you have 4+ immortals and forcefields, it's ok if the zerg is 70 supply ahead in roaches as long as you can make 3/4 of them not attack while your immortals kill the other 1/4. So if the map allows for this (ie the third isn't ridiculously hard to take and you can't be easily flanked while defending it) then I think this will become pretty standard PvZ (fast third, robo twilight). I have to emphasize, on a map like Korhal compound where the zerg can attack your army from two sides with mass roach while you defend your third, then you will probably just die. that being said I've been doing a ton of 8 gates cause it can crush a fast third with proper timing + nexus first until we get new maps that are better for fast-third play ;p | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote: The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find. Wow, yeah - that was amazing. I'm gonna guess that's about as early as a protoss can expand, but still. Good stuff! In depth, his forcefield placement wasn't super relevant, so it isn't like he had amazing micro or anything (though his blink stalker micro was quite commendable). He just took a third as soon as he had 4 gates and a robo building, and then made a ton of units. I wonder at how feasible this sort of build is against infestors, though. He never really scouted to see tech paths... I suppose Immortals aren't particularly weak to fungal (I mean, they're armored, but they're also really beefy). | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:45 Treehead wrote: Wow, yeah - that was amazing. I'm gonna guess that's about as early as a protoss can expand, but still. Good stuff! In depth, his forcefield placement wasn't super relevant, so it isn't like he had amazing micro or anything (though his blink stalker micro was quite commendable). He just took a third as soon as he had 4 gates and a robo building, and then made a ton of units. I wonder at how feasible this sort of build is against infestors, though. He never really scouted to see tech paths... I suppose Immortals aren't particularly weak to fungal (I mean, they're armored, but they're also really beefy). I saw minigun open this way vs fast 3hatch awhile ago, I was really surprised how quickly he got his 3rd and he made zero attempt at harassing the zerg for the entire early-mid game. Is this really what toss is gonna become T_T turtle like crazy into deathball... I already do that for PvT >< | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:26 Treehead wrote: I just played a game like the titan replay. My timing was terrible and my micro was worse - (so I won't embarass myself by uploading the rep) but I just wanted to say that it feels so weird having a third up before 10 minutes. But even with terrible macro, you'll be saturated on 2 bases when it finishes, so you can totally use it. I'm actually really pumped about this build. Now to play it decently instead of just guestimating everything. Yea. I'm only diamond but I always use fast 3rd builds. I haven't played against anyone nearly as good as Stephano, but at diamond, I can usually hold a committed roach attack with immortal-sentry-stalker. As others have noted, though, the tricky part is scouting the commitment to mass roach. If he is just making a handful of roaches and then teching muta, I find that the resources sunk into 2+ immortals works against my stalker count. I haven't tried Plexa's Mothership-into-3rd build, but I would assume that could deal with muta a bit better due to a higher initial stalker count. tl;dr I want to see more experimentation with fast thirds from the higher ranked players. In diamond, I get into lategame PvZ consistently with an FFE-robo-2 or 3 more gates-fake WP harass-expo. I drop the 3rd as my WP moves across the map. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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BoxedLunch
United States387 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:41 W2 wrote: Stargate is the only easy option I can think of that will keep you alive against relentless roach pressure. If you want to stay ground only, common mistake is to rely on pure blink stalkers. You need to add more sentries as they run out of energy, and also keep adding immortals. Also, HT tech is the worst s*** against roaches. Roaches are so tanky you get 0 kills per storm, and he keeps dancing until you run out of energy. Go Colossus and blink (for the eventual mutas). Survive the onslaught and the game will start to open up; take it from there. the problem with relying on void rays to survive roach pressure is that you can end up in a mondragon/zeerax sort of position where you have a few voids, a small ground army, and the roaches just roll your army while the voids try to clean up, but they kill roaches so slowly that you just die to rallied roaches | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:58 VictorJones wrote: If you're talking about a strategic shift get a stargate after your FFE instead of going robo. This will become standard as it makes 200/200 roach pushes a lot less efficient. I like the Genius build You realize this was like standard for PvZs since the beginning right? x_x;; | ||
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sgtjimmy
Canada107 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:01 sgtjimmy wrote: This is from a zerg POV but, the common denominator seems to be the FFE. Maybe, just maybe, go into some sort of gate way expand? This is all happening with because of the 3 hatch, zergs can't take 3 bases and be safe. You lose eco, but he does too. In my opinion, it'd be worth it. every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:28 Drowsy wrote: every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things. I disagree, I feel so confident in my ability to play against an FFE, but against gateway expands I'm lost. There are sooo many all ins you can do off a gateway expand. Even if it's not all in, there are still some really strong builds, that allow an expo, ie. 3gate robo -> immortal sentry push, and dt expands. You can't ever account for everything, so you have to play defensive. Whenever I try roach ling aggression it gets shut down by good force fields. | ||
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sgtjimmy
Canada107 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:28 Drowsy wrote: every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things. Everything in this game (macro wise) scales. When a toss figures a good macro build, you better believe that zergs are gonna find one that's just as good, maybe even better. So the way I see it, just go back to gateway expands, the zerg is just forced to not take a third. Also, last time i checked roach/ling all ins vs gateway expands can easily be held with diamond level force fields. | ||
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sofakng
100 Posts
All in all if everything else fails just go double stargate into carriers super fun build ^^. Before you say I noob for using carriers I've beaten quite a few pros with them and with the other style as well. | ||
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