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On January 07 2012 06:11 rustypipe wrote:
The strongest point of the build is that its not always going to make you leaps and bounds ahead but it shuts down so many options for terran which they could otherweise exploit. For the most part it shuts down all early pushes, reapers, hellions, muarder hellion push, ect and puts you in decet shape to transition into a different build.
Think of it this way how many times have you see a Terran open with hellions into bfh, into mech, then as you think he is meching he is throwing down 4-5 rax and transitions into a bio ball. So his first push is a good mix but its the transition or flow of his build. So for this terran he contains the zerg, has a HIGH threat of doing damage, the zerg finds out that BF hellions are on the field so all ling builds have pretty well gone out the window so the zerg is now forced to play how the terran wants, and then even if the first push doesn't kill the zerg he has easily transitioned into bio.
This build allows for the same transitional concepts to apply. You start with Roach which takes away map control and allows for an easy 3rd unless banshee's show up, however if they do show up this can be stopped with more queens. You can then transition into heavy ling infestor, or into ling muta if you like or whichever direction you feel. On top of this you now have the terran reacting to what you are doing and not vice versa which gives you more control. This also in most cases shuts down the mech option as well.
Its not to say this build doesn't have a weekends, but I belive its strength is more on what it shuts down / gives you then what you loose in comparison. Plus the odd time you can just end the game with that first push if the terran is really greedy.
I think you know that almost all of the points you made for this build can be done without such a dramatic investment into units as Tang suggests. Good scouting and simply good game play will allow you to survive, adapt to, and beat anything from Terran, without going all-in at 7:30.
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Tell me another way you will push back 4-6 hellions without a large investment in larva. You forget its not the cost of roaches that is so high that early in the game but the larva cost. Those larva could of been drones instead. With lings it would take double the amount of larva to kill those hellions which is even more of a loss. But yes you can go a ling build with a macro hatch and accomplish the same thing. To each there own I guess, however some marine, hellion medivac early pushes are really hard to deal with just with lings. You see more and more of those gimicky early pushes trying to cripple the zerg from korea more and more on ladder now.
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On January 07 2012 06:18 rustypipe wrote:
Tell me another way you will push back 4-6 hellions without a large investment in larva. You forget its not the cost of roaches that is so high that early in the game but the larva cost. Those larva could of been drones instead. With lings it would take double the amount of larva to kill those hellions which is even more of a loss. But yes you can go a ling build with a macro hatch and accomplish the same thing. To each there own I guess, however some marine, hellion medivac early pushes are really hard to deal with just with lings. You see more and more of those gimicky early pushes trying to cripple the zerg from korea more and more on ladder now.
In my previous posts I've already expounded on holding off hellion harassment without investing nearly as much into aggresison. Go back and read those if you're interested.
Personally I've been having absolutely zero trouble with the types of pressure you point out but I understand that some may. It's my philosophy that the best way to improve in the long run is to find ways that aren't all-in to solve your problems, if they exist.
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On January 06 2012 08:24 justindab0mb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:21 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 08:19 Bart331 wrote:it doesnt have to be all-in, its just you HAVE to do damage or you will be set behind. And thats is often a spot which i am not comfortable with  My question is whether the map control, the ability to expand, having a mobile army to pressure/deny harassment are worth delaying the early creation of drones. I have to agree with Bart, if you don't do ANY damage with this build you are definitely behind. Early drones are always better then later drones if you can get away with it. But even so, you don't really have to do THAT much damage with this build to stay even with the terran; because like you said, you gain map control and the terran will be afraid to push out for a while (while in the meantime you are droning like crazy)
The point is terrans don't build maraudeurs anymore against zerg. So it's a really good build against a hellion expand when there is only marines/hellions to defend it.
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On January 07 2012 06:07 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. @tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal.
What I'm trying to argue is this particular push isn't really all-in, you can transition into a standard macro game or another big timing attack. Even if you end up slightly behind, you have to take into the account the benefits of executing the early attack:
1) You almost always do SOME form of damage. Whether you break in and kill half his SCVs or just force him to pull workers off the line to repair, you're going to do something.
2)You're basically guaranteed a 3rd base, which isn't always the case if you play defensively.
3) You gain map control and, essentially, immunity from hellion harass.
4) You can spread creep unhindered.
5) You may throw a player off his regular build, while you have planned followthroughs/transitions.
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On January 07 2012 06:07 Seiferz wrote:
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Show nested quote +
On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:
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On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:
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On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better.
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I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play.
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i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player.
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@tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal.
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What I'm trying to argue is this particular push isn't really all-in, you can transition into a standard macro game or another big timing attack. Even if you end up slightly behind, you have to take into the account the benefits of executing the early attack:
1) You almost always do SOME form of damage. Whether you break in and kill half his SCVs or just force him to pull workers off the line to repair, you're going to do something.
2)You're basically guaranteed a 3rd base, which isn't always the case if you play defensively.
3) You gain map control and, essentially, immunity from hellion harass.
4) You can spread creep unhindered.
5) You may throw a player off his regular build, while you have planned followthroughs/transitions
I agree with TangSC on this one in that there are certain maps and positions where you can be very confident in a reactor hellion opening that this type of build can counter well and not put you behind. Rather than try to outright kill your opponent and stream in lings you build your roaches send...1 cycle of lings send... and drone your ass off behind it. It will do damage against a hellion opening and frankly most terrans aren't accustom to dealing with zerg agression. Sure it may not work every time against some of the best players but it's affective...not really all in...and a viable way for zergs to turn the tables every now and then when we're otherwise pretty limited in our ability to be agressive.
I do a variation of this occassionally simply because it feels damn good to be agressive, and it pays off the majority of the time. A decent scout will give you enough info that you can abort this build if necessary with little negative impact. Also for the 99% of us who aren't at DarkForce's level it's just fine...not every build needs to be measured against only the top tier of play.
I almost think that there should be a seperate thread for builds that are appropriate at different levels of play. Builds that work for GM and pro and up require too much control/mechanics for masters/diamonds etc... I think it's ok for people who are at lower levels of play to discuss builds that are appropriate for their skill level. Some of us know that we'll never have time to get better than say diamond or low masters. I still want to have fun with builds I can pull off. I don't care if it will lose against Thorzaine or MKP cause I'll never play against them.
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On January 07 2012 07:49 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:07 Seiferz wrote:On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. @tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal. What I'm trying to argue is this particular push isn't really all-in, you can transition into a standard macro game or another big timing attack. Even if you end up slightly behind, you have to take into the account the benefits of executing the early attack: 1) You almost always do SOME form of damage. Whether you break in and kill half his SCVs or just force him to pull workers off the line to repair, you're going to do something. 2)You're basically guaranteed a 3rd base, which isn't always the case if you play defensively. 3) You gain map control and, essentially, immunity from hellion harass. 4) You can spread creep unhindered. 5) You may throw a player off his regular build, while you have planned followthroughs/transitions.
While these points may be true, I would argue that the cons still strongly outweigh the pros when compared to macro from the start, with the exact same math I've used above.
I think I have to agree that it's not "all-in" all-in, as in, if the push fails you're gonna lose. But it's certainly inferior to other, more standard plays in the long run if you don't deal absurd damage and most likely kill your opponent outright.
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What about doing this build without the Speedlings at first? Only to reinforce with Speedlings when you are about to break the wall? I think 6-8 Roaches give as much map control as 8 Roaches and 16 Speedlings. Because, obviously, the Speedlings are only there for when you break the wall, because they are irrelevant in dealing damage to the wall.
You can just as well camp his expo with 8 Roaches unitl Siege is up or he has a medium amount of marines up, but even then his midgame push will be hugely delayed and he will not know exactly how many marines are needed to safely take out 8 Roaches... and maybe I'm reinforcing with Speedlings?
Off Topic: How useful is this against a FFE?
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On January 07 2012 06:18 rustypipe wrote:
Tell me another way you will push back 4-6 hellions without a large investment in larva. You forget its not the cost of roaches that is so high that early in the game but the larva cost. Those larva could of been drones instead. With lings it would take double the amount of larva to kill those hellions which is even more of a loss. But yes you can go a ling build with a macro hatch and accomplish the same thing. To each there own I guess, however some marine, hellion medivac early pushes are really hard to deal with just with lings. You see more and more of those gimicky early pushes trying to cripple the zerg from korea more and more on ladder now.
Well there is the DRG style or 7-8 roaches from 28-44 without getting speed or making lings, saw him do it against Thorzain and I talk about it in my second lecture.
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On January 07 2012 09:04 Morghaine wrote:
What about doing this build without the Speedlings at first? Only to reinforce with Speedlings when you are about to break the wall? I think 6-8 Roaches give as much map control as 8 Roaches and 16 Speedlings. Because, obviously, the Speedlings are only there for when you break the wall, because they are irrelevant in dealing damage to the wall.
You can just as well camp his expo with 8 Roaches unitl Siege is up or he has a medium amount of marines up, but even then his midgame push will be hugely delayed and he will not know exactly how many marines are needed to safely take out 8 Roaches... and maybe I'm reinforcing with Speedlings?
Off Topic: How useful is this against a FFE?
I haven't tried it exactly, but in my experience roach pressure at 7-8 minutes against an FFE isn't gonna work out so well. If you're pressuring an FFE you're gonna wanna do it earlier than that, or side step his wall with drops or a nydus.
Or just take a third base >.>
On January 07 2012 09:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:18 rustypipe wrote:
Tell me another way you will push back 4-6 hellions without a large investment in larva. You forget its not the cost of roaches that is so high that early in the game but the larva cost. Those larva could of been drones instead. With lings it would take double the amount of larva to kill those hellions which is even more of a loss. But yes you can go a ling build with a macro hatch and accomplish the same thing. To each there own I guess, however some marine, hellion medivac early pushes are really hard to deal with just with lings. You see more and more of those gimicky early pushes trying to cripple the zerg from korea more and more on ladder now.
Well there is the DRG style or 7-8 roaches from 28-44 without getting speed or making lings, saw him do it against Thorzain and I talk about it in my second lecture.
Was this a reply to the same post I just replied to? Else, I don't catch your meaning.
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He asked another way to push back hellions without a large investment of larva, I was just pointing out that DRG does that roach-only push off 2hatch while taking a 3rd but that's the only example I can think of.
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On January 07 2012 09:53 TangSC wrote:
He asked another way to push back hellions without a large investment of larva, I was just pointing out that DRG does that roach-only push off 2hatch while taking a 3rd but that's the only example I can think of.
I see. You don't think spines, queens and good building placement are sufficiently powerful enough a defense to keep the larvae requirements low?
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On January 07 2012 08:08 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 07:49 TangSC wrote:On January 07 2012 06:07 Seiferz wrote:On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. @tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal. What I'm trying to argue is this particular push isn't really all-in, you can transition into a standard macro game or another big timing attack. Even if you end up slightly behind, you have to take into the account the benefits of executing the early attack: 1) You almost always do SOME form of damage. Whether you break in and kill half his SCVs or just force him to pull workers off the line to repair, you're going to do something. 2)You're basically guaranteed a 3rd base, which isn't always the case if you play defensively. 3) You gain map control and, essentially, immunity from hellion harass. 4) You can spread creep unhindered. 5) You may throw a player off his regular build, while you have planned followthroughs/transitions. While these points may be true, I would argue that the cons still strongly outweigh the pros when compared to macro from the start, with the exact same math I've used above. I think I have to agree that it's not "all-in" all-in, as in, if the push fails you're gonna lose. But it's certainly inferior to other, more standard plays in the long run if you don't deal absurd damage and most likely kill your opponent outright.
i re-read tangs OP and its just a problem with semantics. so what if people don't call it in allin? its not like it matters what you tag it as.
either way, its pointless to do these kinds of attacks. you won't get better practicing this build in the long run, and even if you want to "whip it out in a BoX", its not exactly difficult to execute. its best to just stick standard and macro until you're good at starcraft.
if you want to play with this aggression then open with 4-6 roaches to deny helions and take your third that way. you'll still be able to secure it without hurting your econ too much.
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Yes it is. Sir UmiNotsuki has explained it nicely.
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On January 07 2012 09:56 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 09:53 TangSC wrote:
He asked another way to push back hellions without a large investment of larva, I was just pointing out that DRG does that roach-only push off 2hatch while taking a 3rd but that's the only example I can think of. I see. You don't think spines, queens and good building placement are sufficiently powerful enough a defense to keep the larvae requirements low?
Actually one of my favorite styles is using spine/2 extra queens and a macro hatch to semi-wall in your natural. You can drone up very quickly that way, because your defenses are so larva-cheap. If they go heavy hellions, you use your evolution chambers to wall in even more with one extra spine until you've fully saturated 2base economy. From there, do whatever you want and time your lair accordingly (Taking all your gas, teching to infestors, and start massing zerglings so that you can take your 3rd soon is a good option).
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On January 07 2012 10:34 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 09:56 UmiNotsuki wrote:On January 07 2012 09:53 TangSC wrote:
He asked another way to push back hellions without a large investment of larva, I was just pointing out that DRG does that roach-only push off 2hatch while taking a 3rd but that's the only example I can think of. I see. You don't think spines, queens and good building placement are sufficiently powerful enough a defense to keep the larvae requirements low? Actually one of my favorite styles is using spine/2 extra queens and a macro hatch to semi-wall in your natural. You can drone up very quickly that way, because your defenses are so larva-cheap. If they go heavy hellions, you use your evolution chambers to wall in even more with one extra spine until you've fully saturated 2base economy. From there, do whatever you want and time your lair accordingly (Taking all your gas, teching to infestors, and start massing zerglings so that you can take your 3rd soon is a good option).
Haha, precisely. I know you didn't advertise it as such, but this very post shows that even the creator of the build admits to a lot of units not being the only good reply to hellions.
On January 07 2012 10:24 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 08:08 UmiNotsuki wrote:On January 07 2012 07:49 TangSC wrote:On January 07 2012 06:07 Seiferz wrote:On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. @tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal. What I'm trying to argue is this particular push isn't really all-in, you can transition into a standard macro game or another big timing attack. Even if you end up slightly behind, you have to take into the account the benefits of executing the early attack: 1) You almost always do SOME form of damage. Whether you break in and kill half his SCVs or just force him to pull workers off the line to repair, you're going to do something. 2)You're basically guaranteed a 3rd base, which isn't always the case if you play defensively. 3) You gain map control and, essentially, immunity from hellion harass. 4) You can spread creep unhindered. 5) You may throw a player off his regular build, while you have planned followthroughs/transitions. While these points may be true, I would argue that the cons still strongly outweigh the pros when compared to macro from the start, with the exact same math I've used above. I think I have to agree that it's not "all-in" all-in, as in, if the push fails you're gonna lose. But it's certainly inferior to other, more standard plays in the long run if you don't deal absurd damage and most likely kill your opponent outright. i re-read tangs OP and its just a problem with semantics. so what if people don't call it in allin? its not like it matters what you tag it as. either way, its pointless to do these kinds of attacks. you won't get better practicing this build in the long run, and even if you want to "whip it out in a BoX", its not exactly difficult to execute. its best to just stick standard and macro until you're good at starcraft. if you want to play with this aggression then open with 4-6 roaches to deny helions and take your third that way. you'll still be able to secure it without hurting your econ too much.
True enough. I think it's worth practicing if you're a higher level player (high master at least) before using it in any real competition, but for those of us who aren't quite there yet... better to stick to the basics.
Admittedly, Tang IS at that level, at least in terms of results if not "macro game skill." If he chooses to play BOX tournaments by simply drawing an appropriate all-in out of his hat and preforming it, then that's what he chooses, and it will surely bring him some solid results.
Not so for the rest of us.
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On January 07 2012 10:29 discobaas wrote:
Yes it is. Sir UmiNotsuki has explained it nicely.
The irony of the content of this post and the content of our two signatures gave me a good chuckle 
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I agree that this build is not optimal. Still, probably works pretty well vs mid-master and lower level terrans given what's popular nowadays.
Just wanted to add from my experience that this kind of play is very weak to 1/1/1 expand. 4 marine+1 hellion poke timing will make it pretty obvious that it's a roach opening and you'll likely take damage as more hellions and a banshee stream in rushing the roach warren that fast. Although the roaches will pop out in time to push everything back, Terran will lose nothing compared to the amount of units produced and will hold as a 2nd banshee pops out, while putting down a 3rd, and then roach warren won't help with the map control when being contained by 4-6 hellions and 2-3 banshees.
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This is awesome stuff. As someone evolving their game play from Turtle Toss EZ mode into aggressive Zerg, I've been focusing on the Roach/Ling all in versus Toss as the standard build that I'm using to establish the fundamentals of Zerg mechanics and such. Having a hatch-first variation to throw at Terran (or even against Toss on larger maps) is just perfect for my newbie Zerg needs at this point in time.
Also, it seems like this is essentially the first barrel of the three barrel burst? However, instead of transitioning into a specific set of timing attacks to follow up with, there are now options to choose based on what your initial attack and scouting have revealed. This is also highly beneficial for my needs as I want to learn the 3 barrel burst build and mastering this initial "barrel" will make the lesson and learning the other 2 barrels go much smoother.
I would recommend for anyone considering playing Zerg that you check out this guide in conjunction with the 14/14 variation designed for Protoss. Actually, be SURE to check out the 14/14 guide, it is perhaps Tang's finest work and if just filled with useful info for newbies and even those with experience playing Zerg.
Of course, you don't want to simply all in every single game you ever play. However, when just starting out I'm a big believer in focusing on mastering a single build first (and everything that goes along with that like handling harass, defending cheese, etc) as a means to providing yourself an arena for your mechanics and other skills to be tested and improved. Not to mention the fact that the whole point of this guide is to ask ourselves, when is one truly ALL in? If you do a bunch of damage but don't end the game outright there are still plenty of options available to keep you in the game and hopefully, enable you to finish the job.
Thanks Tang, your work is much appreciated!
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I've been favouring this style recently against hellion openers (except as a transition from the more standard 16hatch 17pool 18gas that DRG and such have been favouring) and I really don't know how you can come out behind if done right. Even if they do the 'safe' cc > 4hellion > start siege tank production opener, you can deny their nat long enough to get full saturation + your macro hatch down before they can get their nat.
While you can use the attack to take a third, depending on the map I find it much safer and solid to just get the macro hatch. You can then transition really strongly into double upgrade ling/festor or muta/ling/bane.
Figuring out when you can slip in drones is the most interesting thing for me. I tend to get a third queen and drone to 34 supply (ie. 28 drones, ~4 more than Tang's build) with the warren on 28, and then make a wave of drones after my 5-8 roaches. Making lings immediately after the roaches gets them to the opponents base faster than the roaches (unnecessary) and this way you can get more mining ^_^
What I like most is that the terran normally just plays super safe/standard in response. Even if you're attack doesn't kill a thing, if you pull back at the right timing it feels like a really solid advantage if you don't overmake lings (ie. 1 wave only if they don't try to hold their nat). Strategically it's really similar to the ZvP timings in which you deny/delay their third, and I'm really liking the playstyle for now. With my transition it's like the Idra variant of the icefisher build, except you get to scout with your attack/pressure. Almost feels safer.
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I think the most important aspect to bring up is not the exact amount of larva you "waste", the exact amount of minerals you lose and other forms of math to discuss how all-in it is. What we should do is just compare it to terran and toss timing attacks, because all we want is the ability to do non-allin timing attacks like T and P. So this build basically leaves TangSC at around 28 drones on 2 base. This is quite low, a terran 3rax push will definitely be cheaper for the terran. However, it's important to note that because of the way zerg injection mechanics work, zergs can jump up again. You build those 16 lings, attack, and then do full droning and you should catch up to the terran since he can't expand. When he finally gets his expand down, you should already have full saturation on your two bases and a third one on the way. Which means that even if you didn't actually get inside his base, you evened it out, which is more or less the case when a terran does a 3rax which does little damage. He forced the zerg to build units and is allowed to catch up economically.
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EPT
