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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 14 2012 05:40 secretary bird wrote: If this build wasnt viable it couldnt beat korean terrans Nestea won one game against MVP at the Blizzcon using a Queen-less Roach all-in, what does it say about the build's viability?... | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On January 14 2012 05:24 GornWood wrote: @Jermstuddog Who you think is better than me in the Pages before? I´m going to look up myself who posted here but pls say me... Edit: Ok i saw Darkforce but he played Terran.I really like Darkforce but his Terran really sucks as he said too.So don´t tell me my Terran skills are below the one of Darkforce.That´s riduculous.I bet you are some "Masters" Zerg at NA Server.Give me some good Zerg at EU or KR Server so I´ll play him against your crap build ok? I´d like to play Darkforce just because we have the same point of view to this build... Perhaps you can add some replays where you completely murder roach ling timings. Right. Now the only repays part of the discussion are of the build working. If you message Tang I'm sure he will oblige you with a couple games. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On January 14 2012 05:40 secretary bird wrote: The 5 Roach Rush of old relied on the same concept: an all-in build, that hits with a lot of forces early, with a followup that you can't really execute without just hoping your opponent decides not to attack you while you macro up afterwards. Lots of wins at the lower level, with a progressively worse success rate as you move up the rankings. The main reason why this is viable right now at "higher" ladder levels is because the 2-hatch opening makes your everyday ladder Terran less likely to suspect a heavy attack.If this build wasnt viable it couldnt beat korean terrans and many zergs on EU wouldnt use something similar so it definitely is. Plus not that hard to execute and quick wins means its nice for lower level ladder play thats for sure. like I've said, it's a good all-in build, but it's not a "good build." Which isn't a knock against the build's ladder effectiveness or anything like that. It just means that it's a build that will almost certainly guarantee a loss against an opponent that knows how to deal with it. | ||
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
I just want to point out this style in conjunction with the egg management style: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302179¤tpage=2 I think this helps a ton with any kind of aggressive style. The only pro I remember doing this is actually Stephano as mentioned, that's why his pushes or reinforcements are so incredibly strong. I tend to state that he wins a LOT of games JUST because of the egg management. As already said in the thread, it is NOT advised you do this all the time (and like NEVER with mutas), but it's very nice when you're aggressive with melee units. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 13 2012 23:50 agahamsorr0w wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2012 21:27 Asolmanx wrote: After pushing you CAN scout for tech and see if there might be dropships incoming. You can also not scout it. Same thing happens when you do any other build, you can send an overlord/overseer to get this info. You can also just spread the overlords and watch the minimap. Your post doesn't belong to this thread imo You mean you can scout the dropship during the push. Scouting after the push would be incredibly hard without lair tech. We are trying to discuss the long term viability of this build and yea, I do think my post is appropriate. Why would it be any harder to scout it after the push with this build compared to any other? The difference is drone to army ratio, it's not like you will have mutas out by 7 minutes anyway. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On January 14 2012 06:06 TheDwf wrote: Nestea won one game against MVP at the Blizzcon using a Queen-less Roach all-in, what does it say about the build's viability?... You're talking about one game I'm talking about many, I dont see your point. Even if you know its coming its not an automatic win against this build, that is more than can be said about many popular builds and just saying its viable doesnt mean its the best build ever and cant lose. | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
Why would it be any harder to scout it after the push with this build compared to any other? The difference is drone to army ratio, it's not like you will have mutas out by 7 minutes anyway. It's hard to scout before lair tech. Unless you have 2 overlords already in place ofcourse. Most maps nowadays are 4 player maps and sending an overlord near the base of terran is usually not a good idea, especially cross spawn. Overlords are slow so they can be killed before scouting key information. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 14 2012 23:16 agahamsorr0w wrote: + Show Spoiler + Why would it be any harder to scout it after the push with this build compared to any other? The difference is drone to army ratio, it's not like you will have mutas out by 7 minutes anyway. It's hard to scout before lair tech. Unless you have 2 overlords already in place ofcourse. Most maps nowadays are 4 player maps and sending an overlord near the base of terran is usually not a good idea, especially cross spawn. Overlords are slow so they can be killed before scouting key information. I agree. It has nothing to do with this build though. There are a billion builds which don't even apply pressure which go for late lair. With this build, you can definitely start lair at 8 minutes, which isn't overly late. | ||
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DeeD
Sweden88 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 15 2012 01:23 DeeD wrote: Isn't the video flashing black ridiciously for anybody else? Yeah sorry about that, I'll start streaming myself soon with improved quality. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I start out with my 7 roaches and hatch/evo/spine crawler wall. As soon as the evo is done, I research +1 melee, ling speed, and take my 2nd gas. Drone up until the Roaches go down, that should get you to about 40-50 drones. From there, I make 7 more roaches and start massing lings, put down a bling nest after the roaches are made. The ideal army to move out with is the 7 roaches and ~40 lings. You want your bling nest to finish while your army moves across the map. Morph 15-20 blings and attack for round 2. Ling speed and +1 melee should be finished before this attack goes off. Now the beautiful part. Get a lair, +1 carapace, double expand, make 2 more queens, and drone your ass off. You can afford to do all this because you just traded armies with your Terran opponent and he shouldn't have a decent army to attack with for another minute or two. At this point, you have 5 hatches, 4 bases, about 70 drones, and 1/1 lings... Do whatever the hell you want, the game should be over already. Playing with Tangs version of the attack is what inspired this, so I figured I'd share. The point of this whole strategy is to be trading armies at Ts base instead of Zs base. It is really odd at first, but after I settled into it, I really started liking it. All bets are off if T uses siege mode siege tanks to root out the initial roaches though. Which is still OK because that typically takes longer than a bio-based army. | ||
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Thadenator
United States5 Posts
Could you provide a replay? Actions speak louder.  It would be easier to see your timings that way. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The latest game I played. Not an example of the build working out perfectly, I was kinda scared of the army he pushed down the ramp with so I made some panic lings and spines, but that might make it a better replay in general. Shows the build still pulling through when things don't go so well. | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:04 Let it Raine wrote: i think aggressive zergs work like this the more you attack in lower leagues the more wins you get the more you attack at the highest level the more losses you get Pretty much Terrans doing reactor hellion can scout this coming a mile away (see early roach coming), make marauder and a bunker and wait until tanks with their 2nd CC making scvs at home. While you cut drones so early to make roaches and lings.. which do nothing (not busting the ramp to win outright and merely "containing" a terran who has 2CC in 1base with this early roachling sets you so behind) On January 14 2012 06:24 RampancyTW wrote: The 5 Roach Rush of old relied on the same concept: an all-in build, that hits with a lot of forces early, with a followup that you can't really execute without just hoping your opponent decides not to attack you while you macro up afterwards. Lots of wins at the lower level, with a progressively worse success rate as you move up the rankings. The main reason why this is viable right now at "higher" ladder levels is because the 2-hatch opening makes your everyday ladder Terran less likely to suspect a heavy attack. like I've said, it's a good all-in build, but it's not a "good build." Which isn't a knock against the build's ladder effectiveness or anything like that. It just means that it's a build that will almost certainly guarantee a loss against an opponent that knows how to deal with it. Well said, this is just another allin guide made by Tang (good for low leagues though, no disputing that) | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
It is definitely good for low levels, but it's debatable whether this is "all-in", considering there are several transitions open to the zerg after the attack. | ||
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
I've used this build several times and I can say it's a very well thought out build by Tang. It has many follow ups as this build is bound to do damage. If it doesn't you just back off and drone up as you know you are safe from the enemy's aggression. Many times the initial push doesn't end the game for me, but I do win the game afterwards because the push forces the terran to reveal all his tech paths therefore, I build the right counter with the follow up while droning. If you haven't tried it, don't bash it. Nuff said | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
It is also incredibly strong vs Bomber style TvZ (1 rax, gas, no marines, no depot, CC, depot, factory, CC), which I've been doing. Tang, you are the reason I am wayyyyy better in customs vs Zerg than on ladder. </3 zergs who are allergic to drones. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
He did get raped by MarineKing but thats because of the skill difference | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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EPT
