The Concept: It seems like terran has all the aggressive options: Early marine/scv/bunker pressure, hellion pressure, banshees. The big question for a lot of zergs is “Can I pressure terran early on without being all in?” Many zerg players think if they take the initiative and attack a terran wall, they're all-in and destined to fail. What I decided to do for this guide was take the Roach/Ling timing attack and determine whether it's an all-in build or whether there are macro-related benefits to opening with this style of aggression. I will make the argument that zerg CAN execute this style of attack and transition into a regular game if it doesn't work, and I look forward to active and constructive feedback from my fellow Terran and Zerg players!
Recap: In this game, I open with the roach/ling attack and make zerglings up to 60 supply. The terran goes for a super-fast 3rd command center and holds off the pressure losing literally nothing. However, due to the map control I gain, I'm able to delay his mining at his expansions while I take a 3rd base and a macro hatch. I then transition into "Stephano-like ZvT" with lots of bases, zerglings, upgrades, infestors, and eventually ultralisks. Even though he gets his 3rd base running very early, I'm able to match his economy and eventually take the game.
Roaches come out in time for when hellion count gets scary:
Roach/Ling Push arrives at front (7:30):
Meanwhile, a 3rd and a macro hatch:
Lings, Upgrades, Infestors:
Split up your lings to flank any mid-game attack (Or defend expansions from drops)
Huge Ling Count in the Mid/Late Game (Meet the terran moving out, don't let tanks siege)
Start massing your infestor/Ling army while creeping (Hopefully better than I do!)
When your Hive finishes, get Ultras and Upgrades asap
When terran finally goes for their maxed out push, you'll have ultras lings and infestors with full upgrades:
Ultras, Infestors, and Lings Attack
Example Replay 2: Roach/Ling with transition into Roach/Ling/Baneling Timing Attacks + Show Spoiler +
Recap: I decided to play a slightly more economic roach/ling opening this game, only making roaches to 52 supply then transitioning into drones. While my first push didn't do much direct damage, I was able to thwart any possible hellion pressure while I teched to upgraded roaches/lings/banelings. My huge timing attack won the game, but even if it didn't, I had a 3rd base on the way.
Defend Bunker Pressure with Drones:
Don't make more lings if you don't have to:
Drones to 28, Roach warren:
Roach/Ling Attack (Drone behind it!):
Too much terran defense? Just retreat:
Get Lair/2 gas/Evo Chamber/Bane Nest/Drones:
Mass upgrades (Roach/Bane speed, +1) Build roaches then lings
Move Out with your army (Roaches in front)
Morph in banelings somewhere close
Speed Roach/Bane/Ling BUST!
Go for the kill
Example Replay 3: Roach/Ling All-In Counter-Attack after Reaper Pressure + Show Spoiler +
Recap: In this game, the players opens super-fast reaper pressure with a bunker. Using only drones, I'm lucky enough to kill the SCV building the bunker. A lot of players will panic and make a lot of lings, but you really only need your 2 queens to hold reaper pressure. By keeping all my steps the same, I was able to execute the roach/ling attack on time and end the game outright.
Don't let a bunker finish, use your drones to defend:
Run Expansion Drones Away, use your 4 Lings to ensure no drones die:
Don't panic! Keep the steps the same and don't produce zerglings(Drones to 28):
2Queens will hold the reapers no problem, start your warren:
Execute the Roach Ling Attack:
Example Replay 4: Roach/Ling All-In against Greedy Hellion Expand + Show Spoiler +
Recap: In this game, my opponent went for an extremely greedy hellion expand. By the time my roaches got to his base, his expansion was up and running but his defenses were sorely lacking. Using roaches to break the depot and lings to flood in, there was really nothing he could do against the timing attack.
The usual...28-44 Roaches
Rally right to expansion
Regroup/Engage the defenses with Roach/Ling
Try to break into the main with roaches and lings
Surround and GG
Discussion Questions:
1) What other transitions are viable after the first roach/ling push?
2) How can terran players optimally respond for this? (Abuse banshees/drops?)
3) Are there other zerg openings that pressure terran similarly? Is there a style that would force hellions to be on the defensive while you drone/Expand?
4) What do you think of alternating between opening with 4 roaches and 8 lings instead of 8 roaches n 16 lings? You can take map control with the 4roach/ling and force a response, but really just use the time to expand and spread creep.
Thank you all for reading, I hope this helps zerg players deal with early hellion harass. Don't be afraid to experiment with attacks and take control of your matchups. Macro-zerg is strong, but it's not the only way to play.
Edit: I experimented with doing recaps of a few example games, with lots of pictures to show key points. Let me know if this analysis was helpful of whether there are too many pics. Thanks!
Very nice I've been doing literally the exact same build in almost all my ZvT's haha. Only difference is I go 15/15 or 15/16 depending on the map and I get 17gas/17ov.
As for your discussion questions:
1) Your transition totally depends on what you scout. Many times if the terran senses this coming they will respond with hellions and marauders. If I scout this I immediately take all 4 of my gases and place a spine down. They will probably kill my push so this spine allows me to drone and tech up quickly. I then transition into standard muta/ling/bling with heavier emphasis on early mutas (and a quick 3rd if possible). But if you feel like you can kill the terran following up with more lings and just all-inning isn't bad either
2) In my opinion the best response to this timing attack is producing marauders and hellions and pushing out immediately after you defeat their push (not always, but most of the time you can force units, game sense..). When I do this push if I scout early gases or a lack of units I immediately drop down an evo and queue a 3rd queen. Banshees/drops are still a viable "response" to this attack because they can prevent a 3rd and keep you pinned while the terran sets up for their own 3rd.
800 point masters btw
Oh, and thanks for the minimal self promotion Tang! MUCH better
On January 06 2012 08:19 Bart331 wrote: it doesnt have to be all-in, its just you HAVE to do damage or you will be set behind. And thats is often a spot which i am not comfortable with
My question is whether the map control, the ability to expand, having a mobile army to pressure/deny harassment are worth delaying the early creation of drones.
On January 06 2012 08:19 Bart331 wrote: it doesnt have to be all-in, its just you HAVE to do damage or you will be set behind. And thats is often a spot which i am not comfortable with
My question is whether the map control, the ability to expand, having a mobile army to pressure/deny harassment are worth delaying the early creation of drones.
I have to agree with Bart, if you don't do ANY damage with this build you are definitely behind. Early drones are always better then later drones if you can get away with it. But even so, you don't really have to do THAT much damage with this build to stay even with the terran; because like you said, you gain map control and the terran will be afraid to push out for a while (while in the meantime you are droning like crazy)
On January 06 2012 08:19 Bart331 wrote: it doesnt have to be all-in, its just you HAVE to do damage or you will be set behind. And thats is often a spot which i am not comfortable with
My question is whether the map control, the ability to expand, having a mobile army to pressure/deny harassment are worth delaying the early creation of drones.
I have to agree with Bart, if you don't do ANY damage with this build you are definitely behind. Early drones are always better then later drones if you can get away with it. But even so, you don't really have to do THAT much damage with this build to stay even with the terran; because like you said, you gain map control and the terran will be afraid to push out for a while (while in the meantime you are droning like crazy)
I see what you mean. It'll come down to your execution and timings, obviously it'll have to be planned and executed well for the greatest chance of success BUT 8 roaches and 16+ lings at the 7:15 mark is pretty hard to stop without losing something.
I think that it's great to be able to get out of your base and spread creep without hellions ruining your day, It's also great to not to have to kill the hellions with pure ling, as it's very inefficient. This build is actually more efficient than the standard option when you can't creep spread, kill the helliions cost-effectivly with lings, or take a third.
I do not think drops are a viable option for Terran. A few roaches back will ward off the drop and allow you to take an expand. I think that as long as you scout for the banshee you should be fine by the time he pushes. It would be too much of a tech switch to actually respond with banshees, as opposed to the Terran planning it from the beginning. If you really need I feel you could drop down a sporecrawler, but the queens should do just fine. Overall it looks like a good build to me, I kind of feel if he goes hellion you would better off tech first. My theory behind this is on a more spread out map it will be hard to move around the roaches to repel attacks on your third. You would be stuck trying to defend your third, limiting your offensive possibilities allowed by the fast lings.
On January 06 2012 08:21 TangSC wrote: My question is whether the map control, the ability to expand, having a mobile army to pressure/deny harassment are worth delaying the early creation of drones.
I do not really agree on this, if he does have map control would it give him an uncontested third base. In the long run I think that would allow for faster expansions and a better economy. The terran on the other hand would be stuck with an army of wasted minerals and/or gas.
Leenock has a build like this that he used at MLG Providence a couple times. Check out game one of his series versus Drewbie.
Leenock's version:
15 hatch 17 extracter 16 pool 17 overlord x2 queens speed @ 100, remove 2 drones from gas 1 pair lings 28 overlord 28 spine 28 roach warren (@~5:15), put two drones back on gas 29 overlord 33 overlord
then 7 roaches when the warren pops and spam lings up to 52 supply.
In the game versus Drewbie he ended up not breaking through and just camped his natural for a bit until siege mode was done. With regards to Tang's #4, I think you need the higher amount of roaches to effectively hold the contain. If you can't hold him back for a bit, it's not worth the investment.
Personally, I tried this for a few weeks and found that I too often couldn't do enough damage with it to justify the massive investment. But I'm a scrub, so take that for what's it worth.
On January 06 2012 08:57 OldManZerg wrote: Leenock has a build like this that he used at MLG Providence a couple times. Check out game one of his series versus Drewbie.
With regards to Tang's #4, I think you need the higher amount of roaches to effectively hold the contain. If you can't hold him back for a bit, it's not worth the investment.
Personally, I tried this for a few weeks and found that I too often couldn't do enough damage with it to justify the massive investment. But I'm a scrub, so take that for what's it worth.
I'd love to see those games if you can find the link :O About your response to #4: It's not to contain, it's just to push hellions back in the early stages. What think you?
On January 06 2012 08:57 OldManZerg wrote: Leenock has a build like this that he used at MLG Providence a couple times. Check out game one of his series versus Drewbie.
Leenock's version:
15 hatch 17 extracter 16 pool 17 overlord x2 queens speed @ 100, remove 2 drones from gas 1 pair lings 28 overlord 28 spine 28 roach warren (@~5:15), put two drones back on gas 29 overlord 33 overlord
then 7 roaches when the warren pops and spam lings up to 52 supply.
In the game versus Drewbie he ended up not breaking through and just camped his natural for a bit until siege mode was done. With regards to Tang's #4, I think you need the higher amount of roaches to effectively hold the contain. If you can't hold him back for a bit, it's not worth the investment.
Personally, I tried this for a few weeks and found that I too often couldn't do enough damage with it to justify the massive investment. But I'm a scrub, so take that for what's it worth.
I'd love to see those games if you can find the link :O About your response to #4: It's not to contain, it's just to push hellions back in the early stages. What think you?
I think if you can't get at least a short contain going on, it's not worth the hit to the economy. I felt like I was behind if I didn't push him back to one base or just break through completely. Honestly, I think this is situational and it's not clear to me when it's appropriate to use. I'm not good enough. :-)
The MLG game was round 3 of the open bracket--there's a link to the replay pack somewhere on the forum here. . .
I really appreciate players who are trying to be aggressive as Zerg. I feel the race has been completely overhauled since BW and it really doesn't suit "Zerg" to sit back and macro like a whore for 10 minutes, praying they'll have "just enough" when the enemy decides to attack.
"Zerg" is a verb - I like people who try to apply it.
Gonna be honest, just like all of your guides this one makes me uneasy. I feel as if you're looking at the game differently from me. I'll explain:
StarCraft II consists of games and sets of games; that is, you can think within the context of a single game, or within the context of your overall win-loss ratio. To me, it seems that you're more concerned with the latter than the former, and that truly bothers me. A good player should be able to, with rather strong consistency, beat someone significantly worse than himself (if only by one league or so.) For instance, a solid platinum player should almost always win against a solid gold player because the platinum player is simply more refined and all-together better at the game. But, your guides seem to be focused on builds for which this is not true. Let me discuss this specific guide in that way:
You suggest that you should have "8 roaches and 16+ lings at the 7:15 mark" when executing this build. Lets look at the cost of that, assuming the minimum number of zerglings.
4 gas = 5 minerals (based on value of one resource return)
200 gas = 250 minerals
Total = 1250 minerals, 24 supply and 16 larvae
That's 16 drones with 800 minerals (not including what those extra drones mine) and 8 supply left over (the exact value of one overlord, so 100 minerals worth)
So, what you are suggesting is that we sacrifice 16 drones worth of mining and 900 minerals for this attack. In order for it to pay for itself relative to simply droning up, as is safe to do with rather minimal defense, we'd have to kill:
More than 12 supply depots, 25 marines, or 25 SCV's
or some combination thereof. Note that these numbers STILL don't include the huge count of minerals that the extra 16 drones mine up to this point.
I think you're crazy if you think you can deal that much damage reliably. Therefore, the only way this build is any good when compared to a macro zerg style is if it wins, right then and there. "Significant damage" won't cut it because there's simply no way that you could deal enough damage for this to pay for itself and not win outright.
The reason this works for you is because you beat some players with it, and that percentage is high enough to keep you at your admittedly impressive ladder ranking. However, you are just as likely to lose to a platinum player with the correct counter in hand (even a blind counter) as you are to beat a master player who was just a little too greedy.
I don't like that.
TL;DR: There's no way this can pay for itself without the opponent dying outright, which is simply not reliable or in my opinion a solid way to play.
EDIT: Added a point about lost mining from lack of drones
Umi I'm not saying do this build EVERY single game, I do macro-styles like Idra/Ret's ling/bane/muta and stephanos infestor/ling. I just prefer aggression out of personal preference. I think the more you practice a style, the more you can make it work no matter what your level. The majority of my games, though, I don't win with that first roach/ling push (If it were that easy, I'd do it every game!) I suppose I just don't like the belief that zerg players MUST macro, I like to think anybody can play their game and have success - and I think the macro styles we see today may well be replaced completely in the months/years to come. Your analysis of the investment cost will actually help me in planning transitions though :D Thanks
On January 06 2012 09:21 TangSC wrote: Umi I'm not saying do this build EVERY single game, I do macro-styles like Idra/Ret's ling/bane/muta and stephanos infestor/ling. I just prefer aggression out of personal preference. I think the more you practice a style, the more you can make it work no matter what your level. The majority of my games, though, I don't win with that first roach/ling push (If it were that easy, I'd do it every game!) I suppose I just don't like the belief that zerg players MUST macro, I like to think anybody can play their game and have success - and I think the macro styles we see today may well be replaced completely in the months/years to come. Your analysis of the investment cost will actually help me in planning transitions though :D Thanks
On January 06 2012 09:17 UmiNotsuki wrote: Gonna be honest, just like all of your guides this one makes me uneasy. I feel as if you're looking at the game differently from me. I'll explain:
StarCraft II consists of games and sets of games; that is, you can think within the context of a single game, or within the context of your overall win-loss ratio. To me, it seems that you're more concerned with the latter than the former, and that truly bothers me. A good player should be able to, with rather strong consistency, beat someone significantly worse than himself (if only by one league or so.) For instance, a solid platinum player should almost always win against a solid gold player because the platinum player is simply more refined and all-together better at the game. But, your guides seem to be focused on builds for which this is not true. Let me discuss this specific guide in that way:
You suggest that you should have "8 roaches and 16+ lings at the 7:15 mark" when executing this build. Lets look at the cost of that, assuming the minimum number of zerglings.
4 gas = 5 minerals (based on value of one resource return)
200 gas = 250 minerals
Total = 1250 minerals, 24 supply and 16 larvae
That's 16 drones with 800 minerals (not including what those extra drones mine) and 8 supply left over (the exact value of one overlord, so 100 minerals worth)
So, what you are suggesting is that we sacrifice 16 drones worth of mining and 900 minerals for this attack. In order for it to pay for itself relative to simply droning up, as is safe to do with rather minimal defense, we'd have to kill:
More than 12 supply depots, 25 marines, or 25 SCV's
or some combination thereof. Note that these numbers STILL don't include the huge count of minerals that the extra 16 drones mine up to this point.
I think you're crazy if you think you can deal that much damage reliably. Therefore, the only way this build is any good when compared to a macro zerg style is if it wins, right then and there. "Significant damage" won't cut it because there's simply no way that you could deal enough damage for this to pay for itself and not win outright.
The reason this works for you is because you beat some players with it, and that percentage is high enough to keep you at your admittedly impressive ladder ranking. However, you are just as likely to lose to a platinum player with the correct counter in hand (even a blind counter) as you are to beat a master player who was just a little too greedy.
I don't like that.
TL;DR: There's no way this can pay for itself without the opponent dying outright, which is simply not reliable or in my opinion a solid way to play.
EDIT: Added a point about lost mining from lack of drones
Couldn't have said it better myself.
As DarkForce said recently, it's really hard to be aggressive as Zerg in SC2 without being semi all in or all in.
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