EPTGLHF
[G] ZvT Roach/Ling All-In (Or is it?) - Page 3
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isneakattack
43 Posts
GLHF | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap. personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote: I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. | ||
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Rizell
Sweden237 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote: i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. May i ask why you think the GSL push with 12ish roaches and 18ish banes + lings is better? On my level (mid/high master) i almost feel like the roach + ling is better.. with the GSL push it comes around 9 mins and tanks with seige or banshees can stop it quite hard it feels like? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote: i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. Fair enough  At the pinnacle of SC2 skill, this build will likely put you behind. It may not be a build you can go pro with but it is a build that low-level players can use to improve their skills and win-rate, and it can be a viable for mid/high master players or for anyone trying to "mix it up". | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:18 TangSC wrote: Fair enough At the pinnacle of SC2 skill, this build will likely put you behind. It may not be a build you can go pro with but it is a build that low-level players can use to improve their skills and win-rate, and it can be a viable for mid/high master players or for anyone trying to "mix it up".Yes, all-ins work and thats great, but DarKFoRcEs point is that when you win with this build its not because of the build - its because your opponent screwed up and nearly any other all-in would have worked as well - and if you play one then you should pick the best one available ^^ | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
1.) hellion, marader all in (with or without scvs) 2.) hellion, marine, medivac drop 3.) hellion greedy expand (If you don't do the roach ling pressure there econ is the same as your or higher in most cases which means the death push comes sooner then normal) 4.) Hidden BF hellions (2-4 at endge of creep to prevent creep spread while another 4-8 are on the way to roll in and do as much econ damage as possible, with a transition into mech or banshee's This early aggression for the most part shuts down most of these early timing attacks. The only real good counter i've seen to this is when the terran scouts it or suspects it when he see's the roaches push out at which time they B-line for a banshee or just go marine maruder hellion all in with SCV's to crush you when they KNOW you will be droning as you HALF to drone behind it if you plan to go into any kind of a mid-late game However with that all said, I have tested this vs many master level terrans, and typically even with little to no damage being done if you power drone from 52 supply to 64-72 supply in drones, you are still 10+ drones ahead of the terran and have both bases fully saturated. Leaving you with the ability to transition into whatever you feel liek doing. | ||
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Frunkis
United States146 Posts
And your attack doesn't have to cover the costs of drones you would have made otherwise. Those drones didn't die, they're only delayed. You'd only have to cover the cost of those 14 or so drones mining up until the point where you would have needed to make units anyway. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
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FindMuck
63 Posts
On January 06 2012 15:47 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, no offense meant by this, but your first couple points there really were a FindMuck; they are utterly wrong. 1. The "100 gas upgrade" you're referring to is surely metabolic boost, no? I did NOT include the cost of metabolic boost in my calculations, as I did in fact assume you'd be getting it anyway (which is indeed not always true.) 100% of the gas costs in my calculations were from roaches. 2. What? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that you made a mistake by writing this paragraph, rather than simply not understanding basic logic. If Tang cuts drones at around 24, that means Tang would be at 24 drones vs. Terran's ~30 SCV's (Not sure where you got that number, 30, but it may be correct.) That puts Tang at a severe economic disadvantage, strongly exacerbated by the existence of MULE's. This necessitates a LOT of damage to be dealt by Tang to come out even with his opponent, as like you said a solid 10 drone lead or so is quite common in ZvT, and it happens to be considered quite even at this point in the game. 3. You ARE correct that my calculations did not account for defensively built units. However, it is my experience at the master level (and it is confirmed in pro-level play) that very minimal defenses are usually adequate up to the point in the game Tang's push, and thus my calculations, are performed at. I would argue that two queens (which you do have anyway,) one spine (100 minerals and a single drone,) and no more than six zerglings (150 minerals) can hold off even the most dedicated of non-all-in or semi-all-in TvZ aggression plays up to this point, when the defense is executed well. That shaves 250 minerals off of my calculations. You're right, it may not be 12.5 supply depots (and it was 12.5, not the 25 you state in your post); only 10. Whoop-dee-doo. 4. Map control is a nigh-valueless resource in early game ZvT. Because Terran is sealed inside his base before he is ready to either attack or expand, lest he be overrun by Zerg's flexible production should he come out too early, the only "map control" of real value is a single zergling outside of your opponent's base, to scout for his expansion or attack as soon as it comes out. Cautious players may even wish to take the Xel'Naga tower(s) as well, but they are hardly a necessity if early game scouting is good. Erring on the side of caution, that means just two zerglings must be out on the map to be completely aware of your opponent's movements at this stage of ZvT. Hardly something 8 roaches and 16 zerglings do much better. 5. When you arrive at Terran's base, dear lord, please tell me you've already scouted him! There are innumerable hard counters to this build that I only let slide because they can be scouted early enough to cancel the aggression. If your opponent goes for fast marauders or siege tanks and you still commit to this attack, you are most likely screwed and will surely deal very little damage. If he goes 2 port banshee, you are most likely screwed and will surely deal very little damage. If he has a bunker or two up, or simply good sim-city such that he may be safe from a baneling bust, you are most likely screwed and will surely deal very little damage. The only scouting information of value I can possibly imagine you getting by the time your push is at his base is whether or not it's going to work. If it won't, too bad you've already committed to it. 6. You DO need to deal the amount of damage concluded by my calculations, in fact, because those lost resource and drone numbers were based on what you had ALREADY sacrificed in order to make the push, and nowhere do I assume that you never make drones again. Remember, just because your economy can be increasing while you're attacking your opponent doesn't mean his can't too: Terran production doesn't require a decision between units and workers to be made, as Zerg's does. Also, because of the innate income Terran players get from simply having extra orbitals lying about (in the form of both increased worker production and increase MULE's,) delaying a Terran expansion is hardly valuable in the long run. It will slightly decrease their income by forcing them to over-saturate their main, but at 7:30 many Terrans who are planning on expanding already may not have full one base saturation quite yet. Not to mention the fact that MULE's don't contribute to saturation, meaning a "fully saturated" mining base with three workers per patch could still support eight MULE's at full mining capacity. 7. This point may tie in with the one above it, but I also want to note that I did NOT include the resources that those drones that were never built in order to make the push occur would've mined. I simply haven't preformed the calculations as they'd be too lengthy and variable for me to care much for. Needless to say, it's several hundred minerals at least. Yes, these drones that you propose making once you've already started pushing out at your opponent will start to mine, but the amount of money that the earlier drones would've mined before these new drones would catch up to them is very large and should technically be added to the opportunity cost of making the push. If I had to make my best educated guess at the matter I'd say the opportunity cost is closer to 2250 minerals or so, up from the 1250 I had stated before. Make it 45 marines or SCV's, or over 22 supply depots. 8. Building more units is always "safer" in the short run, no matter what. However, StarCraft II is NOT about being as safe as possible at all points, its about being as ahead as possible at all points. Tang's build attempts to get ahead by dealing damage; it is unreliable and, for all the reasons I've stated in these last two posts, very bad in my opinion. My approach is to instead take advantage of the freedom to drone in relative safety and to simply gain as much of an advantage as I can through the use of the larvae mechanic to increase my economy as quickly as possible when I can be relatively sure that I am already safe, and to only build units as needed. When executed correctly, both builds put us ahead in the long run (Terran almost always attempts to take advantage of the small army associated with my style in some timing window to make the game more even; games are often won or lost on holding off that aggression with minimal losses,) but mine does so based on MY skill and ability to play, and does NOT rely on my opponent's inability to counter my frankly poorly thought out aggression, as does Tang's. I daresay this has been the longest post I've ever written... I wonder if anyone will actually read and internalize the entire thing. "How do you like 'dem apples?" EDIT: Revising some simple typos and mistakes I made in the editing process. EDIT2: Added quotes for some paragraphs where before it may have been unclear what I was responding to. I cant even hope to make my post as pretty as you did, but I will just respond to the paragraphs that you so kindly numbered 1. Sorry about that :S 2. I got the number 30 scvs from tang's first replay, the big picture that shows his 23 drones to the Terran's 30. In your argument, you said that Tang would be sacrificing 16 drones to create this army. What I meant was that if he had actually made those drones, it would become a 40 --> 30 drone advantage for Tang. So, making those drones actually puts him ahead of the terran, not even, which was what I was trying to get at. However, it is true that this is considered even early game zvt due to mules, but it doesnt change the fact that making drones instead of those units would put Tang at a worker advantage. How much damage does Tang have to do? 16 scvs worth of damage before Tang drones up, and some mining time. However, Larva mechanic allows zerg to catch up in workers much faster than terran would be able to recover from economic damage this push does 3 + 4 + 5. Its true that 6 zerglings, 2-4 queens and a spine can hold off hellion pressure. If that is the case, why does terran even make hellions in the first place, if 4 hellions (400 minerals) can be dealt with using only 250 minerals (300 to replace the drone). Because those hellions not only give the chance to roast some drones (although zergs are dealing with this much better now), but give terran map control. I think you underestimate the advantage of having 2 zerglings at the watchtower and one in front of the base. When terran has map control with hellions, its very hard to know what he is going to transition into. Marines at the perimeter of the base and just good building placement stop any hopes of a slow overlord scout, and until you kill those hellions, he could be either 2 port banshee, expand, or going for a hellion marauder allin. Thatès why its not uncommon that zergs will just make a round of lings to catch those hellions off guard, although it may not be as much as an investment as this push is. Map control is very important for both races in the early game, it dictates what you can, and what you cannot do. If terran realizes that you will be making drones, but have a solid defence, he can play a much more greedy build, and same goes for zerg. As for scouting information, when you get to his base, you see the bansheess. You see the mauarders. You see the expand. Without map control, you can't actually see these things until it gets to your base (your playing in the dark with just 6 lings, 2 queens, 1 spine, and 40 drones) 6+7. I think you misunderstood my point. What I was saying was that as you push out, you make those 16 drones that would have been made had you decided not to do this push. Except now, you are free to drone past that 16, because of the pressure you have put on terran. All this push does in terms of your economy is a reverse of the order you create your units. Push: units ----> drones 10:30 (around rine tank push out) = 1 drone, 1 units Stanard: drones ----> units. 10:30 (around rine tank push out) = 1 drone, 1 units You probably have the math behind this to prove that it is not as simple as I put it, but that was what I was trying to get at is the only damage you have to do, is the mining time lost of the drones you failed to make, but are making now. This is the same with almost every zerg all in because zerg has the choice of making either drones or units (and most all ins make units instead of drones) 8. Your point is correct. In order for this to work, Tang must do damage, of course. I was just trying to argue that he doenst have to do nearly as much damage, and the scouting information + map control make up for any economic disadvantage he has, if the push hadn't TOTALLY failed. tldr; (dont read this if you planning to respond) Map control is not valuless, it gives you the ability to scout (doenst happen if you are playing defensively and in the dark. This push is just making the units you would have to make to defend a standard marine tank push first, and making the drones that you would have made in a standard opening behind this push. But after reading your posts, I must agree that this push probably wont work at much higher levels (I'm only sitting around mid-high master, and I feel it has some potential) EDIT: PS , I wish I could include some pun using your username in my arguments ;( | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
2. I got the number 30 scvs from tang's first replay, the big picture that shows his 23 drones to the Terran's 30. In your argument, you said that Tang would be sacrificing 16 drones to create this army. What I meant was that if he had actually made those drones, it would become a 40 --> 30 drone advantage for Tang. So, making those drones actually puts him ahead of the terran, not even, which was what I was trying to get at. Not necessarily. Zerg is supposed to be ahead of Terrans in workers in an even game. Zerg uses larvae injections to create more drones than the Terran can create SCVs, but terran stays even because of mules. If you look at replays and open the income tab, you will often see that the income is equal for both players despite the Zerg being ahead 10 - 15 drones. | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
On January 06 2012 09:17 UmiNotsuki wrote: Gonna be honest, just like all of your guides this one makes me uneasy. I feel as if you're looking at the game differently from me. I'll explain: StarCraft II consists of games and sets of games; that is, you can think within the context of a single game, or within the context of your overall win-loss ratio. To me, it seems that you're more concerned with the latter than the former, and that truly bothers me. A good player should be able to, with rather strong consistency, beat someone significantly worse than himself (if only by one league or so.) For instance, a solid platinum player should almost always win against a solid gold player because the platinum player is simply more refined and all-together better at the game. But, your guides seem to be focused on builds for which this is not true. Let me discuss this specific guide in that way: You suggest that you should have "8 roaches and 16+ lings at the 7:15 mark" when executing this build. Lets look at the cost of that, assuming the minimum number of zerglings. 1 roach = 75 minerals, 25 gas, 2 supply and 1 larva 1 zergling = 25 minerals, 0.5 supply and 0.5 larvae 8 roaches = 600 minerals, 200 gas, 16 supply and 8 larvae 16 zerglings = 400 minerals, 8 supply and 8 larvae Subtotal = 1000 minerals, 200 gas, 24 supply and 16 larvae 4 gas = 5 minerals (based on value of one resource return) 200 gas = 250 minerals Total = 1250 minerals, 24 supply and 16 larvae That's 16 drones with 800 minerals (not including what those extra drones mine) and 8 supply left over (the exact value of one overlord, so 100 minerals worth) So, what you are suggesting is that we sacrifice 16 drones worth of mining and 900 minerals for this attack. In order for it to pay for itself relative to simply droning up, as is safe to do with rather minimal defense, we'd have to kill: More than 12 supply depots, 25 marines, or 25 SCV's or some combination thereof. Note that these numbers STILL don't include the huge count of minerals that the extra 16 drones mine up to this point. I think you're crazy if you think you can deal that much damage reliably. Therefore, the only way this build is any good when compared to a macro zerg style is if it wins, right then and there. "Significant damage" won't cut it because there's simply no way that you could deal enough damage for this to pay for itself and not win outright. The reason this works for you is because you beat some players with it, and that percentage is high enough to keep you at your admittedly impressive ladder ranking. However, you are just as likely to lose to a platinum player with the correct counter in hand (even a blind counter) as you are to beat a master player who was just a little too greedy. I don't like that. TL;DR: There's no way this can pay for itself without the opponent dying outright, which is simply not reliable or in my opinion a solid way to play. EDIT: Added a point about lost mining from lack of drones i think the point you make that generally if this does "significant damage" you most likely win. i too have never had a roach push do damage but not win and be worth it. generally speaking if your roach push fails they now retain some helions/marines and you have to make a few more roaches to not die and by then double orbitals have put him far far ahead of me. its really a nice change to the metagame and i have had exp beating many terrans who have gotten used to only making 1 bunker at an expo and not worrying about aggressive zergs but its not that reliable when compared to the fact that you can get ahead by an expo and 10 drones early game which is pretty big i think in GM and top masters (some top masters...) i find the players i fight think "oh he did this how can i macro just a bit harder then him" when everyone else things "oh he did that? how do i kill him RIGHT NOW" and then your push starts to have low win/success rates | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 07 2012 03:33 ohokurwrong wrote: i think the point you make that generally if this does "significant damage" you most likely win. i too have never had a roach push do damage but not win and be worth it. generally speaking if your roach push fails they now retain some helions/marines and you have to make a few more roaches to not die and by then double orbitals have put him far far ahead of me. its really a nice change to the metagame and i have had exp beating many terrans who have gotten used to only making 1 bunker at an expo and not worrying about aggressive zergs but its not that reliable when compared to the fact that you can get ahead by an expo and 10 drones early game which is pretty big i think in GM and top masters (some top masters...) i find the players i fight think "oh he did this how can i macro just a bit harder then him" when everyone else things "oh he did that? how do i kill him RIGHT NOW" and then your push starts to have low win/success rates Yeah, basically if you do manage to break his wall and get in, you're going to be able to do massive damage to the SCVs with your zerglings and it's essentially over as long as you micro well. The only times you have a chance to lose right after breaking in is if they're doing a cheesy 2port banshee off 1 base, and in this situation you haven't teched lair so you can double-produce queens and spore up like crazy (literally make like 10 spores) and just drones because you know he can't attack you with a ground force. | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:47 TheMooseHeed wrote: Is 14 hatch better than 15 hatch now or just preference? It's just safer, I actually prefer 15/15/15 but 14/14/14 works too. | ||
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UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
First, I again disagree with your assessment of the value of map control (frankly, speedlings are faster than hellions, even off creep, so you can always scout what you need to scout) but I'm not gonna argue that point much; it's dependent on play style and all that and I don't trust my own game knowledge enough to be more stalwart in telling you that I think you're wrong. Second, your point about reversing the order in which drones or units are made caught my attention, and it's an interesting way of thinking about it, but I still think it's not true. You see, if it truly was an equal reversal (as in, in my games I make 16 drones and then go into units, but in Tang's style he goes for units and then makes up the drones) then you would be almost right in saying that the push only needs to pay for the loss in mining from delaying your drones. However, you're not quite right for two reasons: 1. The push ALSO needs to pay for the value of any units you lose in order to be cost effective. Since you are behind economically when making this push, you do not have the normal excuse for not being cost effective of "my economy is bigger so I can be more wasteful and still come out on top." In fact, in this case each of your units need to pay for not only their costs but the cost of not using those resources on drones, as well. 2. I do NOT stop making drones after I build those 16. Because macro-Zerg style is always concerned with squeezing out as many drones as possible, I'm liable to make many more of them even after those 16 simply because I'm not worried about any pressure at that time (or at least one that would be dealt with with zerglings; banshees hit at around this timing but I can and do make drones while being attacked by banshees.) That means that macro styles will continue to have larger incomes than the style Tang presents even into the mid and late games, simply due to that early advantage, though I admit the difference as a percentage of total income is liable to grow smaller as the game progresses. In my standard ZvT games I only start worrying about many units once I've got upwards of 50 drones in most cases. As someone who still clings to the time-tested two base mutalisk style, I expect scary pushes to only start to form at around the 10:30 mark, at the earliest, and I can oversaturate two bases and still hold those off with relative ease. Now in reply to this quote: On January 07 2012 03:33 ohokurwrong wrote: i think the point you make that generally if this does "significant damage" you most likely win. i too have never had a roach push do damage but not win and be worth it. generally speaking if your roach push fails they now retain some helions/marines and you have to make a few more roaches to not die and by then double orbitals have put him far far ahead of me. its really a nice change to the metagame and i have had exp beating many terrans who have gotten used to only making 1 bunker at an expo and not worrying about aggressive zergs but its not that reliable when compared to the fact that you can get ahead by an expo and 10 drones early game which is pretty big i think in GM and top masters (some top masters...) i find the players i fight think "oh he did this how can i macro just a bit harder then him" when everyone else things "oh he did that? how do i kill him RIGHT NOW" and then your push starts to have low win/success rates I couldn't agree more. Roach pushes win or they don't, I too have never done an early roach push, cutting huge numbers of drones, have it not pretty much win the game right there and thought to myself "well that's okay, we're still even." No. I would be hugely behind and playing the rest of the game from a disadvantage in almost all cases. This is no longer in reply to anyone in specific, just a general note: I think the reason we see progamers preform all-ins regularly is because progamers play in BOX situations in tournaments. They have to beat the same opponent multiple times in order to win, so a single game is less valuable to them than to a ladder player who meets random players each game. I want to make it clear that I actually very much support this build as an all-in. It looks like a good push with a lot of potential to win some games. But it is just that: an all-in. It should only be used to catch your opponent off guard and to win a game by taking advantage of a BOX situation, NOT as a standard "this is what I do in ZvT games" strategy. | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
I tried this build a few times. First couple games it was successful, but than I started running into some trouble. My biggest problem area was in my second game I played, the guy opened with a few Marines, with Banshee's behind it. I don't think I would have enough damage against his front to make the attack worth it, so I ended up pulling back and being behind because I didn't drone. He saw that I had some spores up, so he didn't really use the Banshee's to attack - just to contain my ground army and deny my third. The second game was lost to me due to drops. I used the Barrel Bust build and was at the second Barrel timing when the drops hit, and I lost at least 20 drones and it basically forced me All-In. Not good. I think if the Terran doesn't go some form of air, or you put a few spines ect. ect. at you're Hatches, I think the idea behind the build could work very successfully. Thoughts? | ||
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UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
On January 07 2012 05:46 Jitsu wrote: To contribute to the discussion: I tried this build a few times. First couple games it was successful, but than I started running into some trouble. My biggest problem area was in my second game I played, the guy opened with a few Marines, with Banshee's behind it. I don't think I would have enough damage against his front to make the attack worth it, so I ended up pulling back and being behind because I didn't drone. He saw that I had some spores up, so he didn't really use the Banshee's to attack - just to contain my ground army and deny my third. The second game was lost to me due to drops. I used the Barrel Bust build and was at the second Barrel timing when the drops hit, and I lost at least 20 drones and it basically forced me All-In. Not good. I think if the Terran doesn't go some form of air, or you put a few spines ect. ect. at you're Hatches, I think the idea behind the build could work very successfully. Thoughts? Oh, I agree. The problem is when Terran goes air. Or fast tanks or fast marauders or fast bunkers. Other than that you're golden, but that's not good enough for me to use it outisde of a BOX situation. Even then I still think I'd be a tad more liable to do an eco baneling bust or something along those lines if I wanted to be aggressive around this timing... | ||
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Seiferz
United States640 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote: i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player. @tang: roach ling bling is what DRG does whenever he wants to all in. beating inferior players with roach ling shouldnt be your goal. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
Think of it this way how many times have you see a Terran open with hellions into bfh, into mech, then as you think he is meching he is throwing down 4-5 rax and transitions into a bio ball. So his first push is a good mix but its the transition or flow of his build. So for this terran he contains the zerg, has a HIGH threat of doing damage, the zerg finds out that BF hellions are on the field so all ling builds have pretty well gone out the window so the zerg is now forced to play how the terran wants, and then even if the first push doesn't kill the zerg he has easily transitioned into bio. This build allows for the same transitional concepts to apply. You start with Roach which takes away map control and allows for an easy 3rd unless banshee's show up, however if they do show up this can be stopped with more queens. You can then transition into heavy ling infestor, or into ling muta if you like or whichever direction you feel. On top of this you now have the terran reacting to what you are doing and not vice versa which gives you more control. This also in most cases shuts down the mech option as well. Its not to say this build doesn't have a weeknesses, but I belive its strength is more on what it shuts down / gives you then what you loose in comparison. Plus the odd time you can just end the game with that first push if the terran is really greedy. If you prefer more drones, just make 4-6 roach and drone with the rest and just park 4 roach close to his base to push the hellions back in and leave 2 roach behind incase he tries a run by you now have the same effect to the terran has hellions do when they part on the edge of your creep for the first little bit | ||
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