EPT[G] ZvT Roach/Ling All-In (Or is it?) - Page 12
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:13 agahamsorr0w wrote: If you rush for mutalisk and don't do any sort of aggression then the amount of time he can abuse drops is shortened by a lot. That's one of the reasons I prefer going for mutas, they give a better map control than roach ling ever will do against terran. Plus, if you spread overlords before mutas come out, you can lose them to 1 random viking. I don't like losing stuff for free. That's a stylistic choice you make, both Stephano and Destiny never go early mutas in ZvT and they deal with drops just fine. It's not anything negative with this build itself. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:13 agahamsorr0w wrote: If you rush for mutalisk and don't do any sort of aggression then the amount of time he can abuse drops is shortened by a lot. That's one of the reasons I prefer going for mutas, they give a better map control than roach ling ever will do against terran. Plus, if you spread overlords before mutas come out, you can lose them to 1 random viking. I don't like losing stuff for free. After pushing you CAN scout for tech and see if there might be dropships incoming. You can also not scout it. Same thing happens when you do any other build, you can send an overlord/overseer to get this info. You can also just spread the overlords and watch the minimap. Your post doesn't belong to this thread imo | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 16:57 FireOfDarklight wrote: Hi Tang, i did read like 90% of the comments in this thread and didn't find anything about gas steal and i was curious... Some time ago i read about gas steal discurages terran from going banshe. (not to mention marines wich are not at the front anymore) Is this still true and would it be viable for your strategy to implement? Please tell me It's not something I do very often, because I send a late scout (after hatchery) and typically they'll either have a full wall or 2 marines waiting. I prefer to keep the drone alive by scouting up the ramp, then using him to spot for marines/scvs coming to pressure (either out front of terran base or at xel naga in between our bases) | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:13 agahamsorr0w wrote: If you rush for mutalisk and don't do any sort of aggression then the amount of time he can abuse drops is shortened by a lot. That's one of the reasons I prefer going for mutas, they give a better map control than roach ling ever will do against terran. Plus, if you spread overlords before mutas come out, you can lose them to 1 random viking. I don't like losing stuff for free. I usually get overlord speed at lair to deal with that. It is true that drops are possible but like others have mentioned, if you have a large enough roach/ling army and response well when you see medivacs in minimap, you can deal with drop pressure without mutas. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On January 13 2012 07:03 blinkblue wrote: How is it that different? If you don't do any damage with this build, then GL HF transitioning out of it. If you do some damage with either build, you break even. If you do a lot of damage, you're ahead. A four gate puts you behind because you are cutting a nexus as well as probes. If you only do some damage, you are really far behind. It's is in no way comparable to this build which is just cutting drones for an attack. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The punch is HARD, but as others have mentioned I miss the drones I've been making with my version  Also been throwing in Blings and just finishing games at the 8 minute mark npnp. My goal is to master all 3 different builds (naked roach, roach ling, and roach ling bling) and throw them out at random. So far, anything including lings is really bumpy for me, but still incredibly effective. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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GornWood
Germany121 Posts
Against other builds than reactor hellion expo i don´t think it´ll do any damage either.When he does some other builds he will have a bunker, a banshee or enough units to defend the pressure anyways. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 13 2012 23:04 GornWood wrote: I´m Terran and in my opinion this build isn´t viable because with a normal reactor hellion expand (4-6 Hellions) you can normally get a bunker before he arrives with the roaches.The only thing you force is a bunker and that´s it.Investing in Lings, when he did a reactor hellion expo is really useless because there is no way you can pressure defensive hellions with lings. Against other builds than reactor hellion expo i don´t think it´ll do any damage either.When he does some other builds he will have a bunker, a banshee or enough units to defend the pressure anyways. That's nice. See the last 12 pages of this thread. People better than you have said the same thing. They've been proven wrong. Have a nice day. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:55 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Iv'e tried this build with the 14 Hatch 14 Gas 14 Pool Tang suggested compared to Nestea's 15 Hatch 16 Pool 17 Gas opener, and I found out Nestea's version is smoother and it gets the Roaches about 10-15 seconds earlier and the gas is just enough for the Roaches in time. Maybe it's more vulnerable to 2rax but it seems alot smoother. It isn't as safe, that's why I recommend the 14/14/14. In ladder, I usually 16/16/16 | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I am doing a 14/15/17 opener, but I'm trying things a little differently. | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:27 Asolmanx wrote: After pushing you CAN scout for tech and see if there might be dropships incoming. You can also not scout it. Same thing happens when you do any other build, you can send an overlord/overseer to get this info. You can also just spread the overlords and watch the minimap. Your post doesn't belong to this thread imo You mean you can scout the dropship during the push. Scouting after the push would be incredibly hard without lair tech. We are trying to discuss the long term viability of this build and yea, I do think my post is appropriate. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On January 13 2012 23:33 TangSC wrote: 14/14/14 isn't particularly safe, either.It isn't as safe, that's why I recommend the 14/14/14. In ladder, I usually 16/16/16 It's the equivalent of a 14h/15(delayed)pool, which due to the earlier hatch is actually slower than a normal 15h/15p would be in the first place. You don't make any use of your early gas, so there's no reason to be taking it so early. Something like the above-mentioned 15h/16p/17g (which gets the pool up BARELY slower than your 14/(late)15 equivalent) is smoother, and lowers the damage threshold needed to "break even" with this build because it establishes a somewhat stronger early game economy. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Hatch/pool timings are there to deal with potential 2 rax pressure. Tangs build assumes 2 rax did not occur. Its all related of course, but the difference between 14/14 and 15/16 are somewhat minimal on Tang's push. Yes, there are seconds of difference, which can be huge in SC2, but moving hatch/pool timings is something that can not be definitively answered here IMO. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:13 agahamsorr0w wrote: If you rush for mutalisk and don't do any sort of aggression then the amount of time he can abuse drops is shortened by a lot. That's one of the reasons I prefer going for mutas, they give a better map control than roach ling ever will do against terran. Plus, if you spread overlords before mutas come out, you can lose them to 1 random viking. I don't like losing stuff for free. 2 base 9min fast muta will get you crushed if the terran does any LARGE number of early timing attacks. Such as Fast medivac marine hellion drop Hellion Maruader push Mass marine marauder 8+ hellions into marine tank or into mech among many others, However if none of these things happen and the terran plays very standard with the typical marine tank timing attack 9min muta is very effective at map control, however to often i've been either damaged behond repair by early timing attacks or the game can even end there sometimes as your workin stupid hard on droneing to get the econ you need to ling muta bane by the 9 min mark. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
Even if you execute this "blind", there are a lot of popular builds you will straight out win or do significant damage against. You are not that dependent on map awareness and proper scouting (plus decision making). Think of pure macro play risks: * you fail to scout a timing push => lose * you die to some fast tech => lose * you overreact to a fake push => behind So playing agressively will probably yield a overall better winrate on ladder (at least up to mid master). I am not sure if this also applies to pro level, however it seems to me that pros throwing in some all-ins/push builds are more successful. | ||
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GornWood
Germany121 Posts
Edit: Ok i saw Darkforce but he played Terran.I really like Darkforce but his Terran really sucks as he said too.So don´t tell me my Terran skills are below the one of Darkforce.That´s riduculous.I bet you are some "Masters" Zerg at NA Server.Give me some good Zerg at EU or KR Server so I´ll play him against your crap build ok? I´d like to play Darkforce just because we have the same point of view to this build... | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
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