EPTHellions safe behind a wall do better against roaches than the OP would seem to like to think...
[G] ZvT Roach/Ling All-In (Or is it?) - Page 10
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Hellions safe behind a wall do better against roaches than the OP would seem to like to think... | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:27 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, but for instance at 10'00 in the second replay (the 24'09 length Shakuras game) DarKFoRcE is already missing more than 10 SCVs and basically 30-40 supply, so it's 63 drones to 37 SCVs with no threat instead of 63 drones to ~50 SCVs and a possible quite big (~40-50 army supply with Stim) push incoming, which would probably kill you since you won't have speed banes, you won't have speed roaches and here you don't even have speed ling (though it may be a mistake?). You can't prove anything with someone offracing, even if he's GM with his main race, and I don't mean to be disrespectful towards DarKFoRcE saying this. Besides, you skipped Speed for lings and made drones straight after your Roaches instead of Lings, which is quite another build order (of course economically better than droning after 52 or 60 supply). I'm not saying my games against Darkforce "prove" that this style of ZvT is without faults. But they do showcase how powerful an aggressive opening against terran can be - and also how even if you don't win the game outright, you can transition out of it into a number of options. Obviously it was Darkforce's offrace, and I'm not trying to compare skill or anything. The point is Darkforce is a very skilled player and he knew roach aggression was coming. There is nothing innately wrong with opening with this style of aggression in ZvT, it's a different approach but it has pros/cons like any strategy and shouldn't be immediately shut down without considerable practice / open-minded discussion. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 13 2012 02:51 Tobberoth wrote: That's a good wall and you're correct that it can't be broken. Like you said however, if the roaches and lings move up the side of the CC, terran has to lift it off and move all the SCVs away, and you'll probably kill a few of the SCVs as they run... then you just stand there. Sure, your third OC is going up in your main, but you're still on one base, which is already oversaturated. Even with 3 orbitals spitting mules, your economy is limited and you're mining out your main extremely fast. Eventually you'll get enough marauders and you can force the lings and roaches to leave, but how fast? Two marauders aren't enough, and during this whole period, the zerg has started his third and done nothing but drone, the zerg will probably have close to 2 base saturation before you can place that nat OC safely again, which means the zerg is ahead economically. There's just no way to get an expansion up and deny this push from doing damage, the push only needs to contain the terran and stop them from mining from their nat. Your main is nowhere close to oversaturation, I had only 12 SCVs on mineral whine running this test; 3 are on gas, and others are on the natural. You will transfer back some of them, but as you need to stay near the bunker with some of them, you won't be oversatured. Besides, MULEs ignore SCV saturation. As for the contain, the Zerg player will be in quite an uncomfortable position, because both Hellions and Marauders outrange Roaches, so you can harass them (and some of them will likely be wounded); if he doesn't hold position, he has to keep them back all the time, and if he does then Marauders can get free hits on them while Hellions keep them safe from Zergling surrounding. It won't take that long to break the contain, and then you can land your third on your third if the Zerg player fully droned behind this push (which is not necessarily safe, since he cannot know for sure what was your intended follow-up), split SCVs accordingly if you're afraid of your main being mined out too early, while retaining some map control with Hellions. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
- not going to comment in detail because I don't play much zerg, but the suggestions to run for Infestors seems solid to me (looking for Infestor/Broodlord) 2) How can terran players optimally respond for this? (Abuse banshees/drops?) - I actually think that in addition to banshee play, the best option as a Terran is to hunker down and max out with full upgrades. Bomber does this very well, where he grabs three OC really quickly, spams siege tanks and turrets for defense, and then smashes face when he gets a really fast 2-1 attack upgrade for the marines. There are certain things that work against that very well, but if the Zerg even tries to meet you in the field without extremely advantageous positioning and a healthy Infestor count, he's dead. 3) Are there other zerg openings that pressure terran similarly? Is there a style that would force hellions to be on the defensive while you drone/Expand? - I'm only Gold, but I don't think so (not without being semi-all-in, a la baneling bust). Hellions are going to be useful against anything except roaches that comes out that early (especially with hydralisks being so unwieldy). This roach push forces the transition to siege tanks/marauders. 4) What do you think of alternating between opening with 4 roaches and 8 lings instead of 8 roaches n 16 lings? You can take map control with the 4roach/ling and force a response, but really just use the time to expand and spread creep. - I think it depends on the game. Your average lower league Zerg who tries this will probably scare a comparable Terran into passivity and the tech transition, however, I think there's the potential for the higher level players to simply shrug, realize they can hold a mere 4 roaches + 8 lings, and try to outmacro you. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I don't get it, this is team liquids strategy forum, most people here are probably not even higher than gold, this guide is amazing for the audience. It grinds my gears that there are probably silver terrans coming into the topic, seeing that darkforce was critical and just jump on the bandwaggon of criticizing tangs aggressive builds, like they do in every guide he creates. Anyway, thanks for playing out some games DarkForce, really cool that you engage with the community this much. I will look into Rets 2 base muta play you mentioned earlier since I would love to get better at using muta, though i've personally failed pretty hard when I've tried to use 2 base muta when I'm hellion contained... just seem like terrans get Thors out too early to do much damage with the mutas (because I'm slow, obviously), and then you're in a crappy situation where you need to get a third up and the terran has had a lot of time to build up. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:38 TheDwf wrote: Your main is nowhere close to oversaturation, I had only 12 SCVs on mineral whine running this test; 3 are on gas, and others are on the natural. You will transfer back some of them, but as you need to stay near the bunker with some of them, you won't be oversatured. Besides, MULEs ignore SCV saturation. As for the contain, the Zerg player will be in quite an uncomfortable position, because both Hellions and Marauders outrange Roaches, so you can harass them (and some of them will likely be wounded); if he doesn't hold position, he has to keep them back all the time, and if he does then Marauders can get free hits on them while Hellions keep them safe from Zergling surrounding. It won't take that long to break the contain, and then you can land your third on your third if the Zerg player fully droned behind this push (which is not necessarily safe, since he cannot know for sure what was your intended follow-up), split SCVs accordingly if you're afraid of your main being mined out too early, while retaining some map control with Hellions. No friend, you need to move all the SCVs back to your main. Your OC is in the air, you can't return minerals to it. That means you will be oversaturated since even the zerg has enough workers to be oversaturated on one base, and zerg cut drones to get the push going. Mules ignore SCV pathing, which was my point: You're mining your main out much faster. Until you can get rid of the push, your nat can't land. It's true that roaches are outranged my hellions and marauders, you can't just leave your army on hold position.. then again, all you're really doing in your base atm is droning, and you actually don't need all that long to catch up drone wise, so I don't think it would be any issue to spend most of your APM on your army. I wouldn't be surprised if the nat has to be in the air for at least 20 seconds, by that time you should have started what, 14 drones? And this is in a more or less worst case scenario where the terran has a good defense. | ||
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kast_
United States22 Posts
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
Theorycrafting doesn't mean anything, because this game is played by humans and not by perfect computers that make no mistakes | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:34 TangSC wrote: I'm not saying my games against Darkforce "prove" that this style of ZvT is without faults. But they do showcase how powerful an aggressive opening against terran can be - and also how even if you don't win the game outright, you can transition out of it into a number of options. Obviously it was Darkforce's offrace, and I'm not trying to compare skill or anything. The point is Darkforce is a very skilled player and he knew roach aggression was coming. There is nothing innately wrong with opening with this style of aggression in ZvT, it's a different approach but it has pros/cons like any strategy and shouldn't be immediately shut down without considerable practice / open-minded discussion. Actually games 1 or 2 speak against your build. And DarKFoRcE knowing about your Roach style does not matter, because Hellions will see your Roaches anyway. Gas being mined after 2400 and no Spine is clear enough to tell the Terran player that agression is coming; all he has to see is if it's a Baneling bust or a Roach rush. Game 1 shows that against adequate play, your opening, far from being powerful, is actually quite a disaster. Since you have no Spine to protect your drones, the two first Hellions are free to roast some Drones, netting 6 kills and scouting your Roach Warren (but that was not even needed). The 4 next Hellions can then lurk somewhere, waiting for your Roaches to leave to come back and kill Lings on their way or remaining Drones, while Bunker(s) / wall keep the Terran player safe from your Roaches at his natural or main. Just imagine what would have happened if DarKFoRcE had walled his natural and microed his remaining Hellions on your Drones. There were already 30 SCVs to 18 drones at this time, so you were at a severe disadvantage here. Only the lack of walling off allowed you to come back in the game, i. e. a mistake from your opponent. Without this mistake, you would have lost, because to compensate this severe economic disadvantage you will have to overdrone afterwards, which means you won't have enough larvae left for whatever push the Terran player decides to use to kill you after his opening advantage. Game 2 is quite the same actually, you went mass drones but would simply have no tech to deal with any Terran follow-up near the 10' mark. With good macro, the Terran player would have around 50 SCVs (since you killed none) and 50 army supply at this point, and you would have only tier1 to deal with that (since fast third = later Lair), i. e. speedlings, slowroaches and slowbanes. Not the greatest choice against stimmed Marines (and some Marauders), whether they're supported by Tanks or Medivacs. On January 13 2012 03:43 Tobberoth wrote: I wonder how much people will demand before they accept that it's a valid build. Tang used it against a pro offracing and did good... Underlined the key word here. No Terran will tell you that DarKFoRcE's build order and macro in game 2 (the 24'09 Shakuras) were optimal. And again, this is normal because he's offracing. The thing is, Tang would have been in a very delicate position with a stronger macro and build order from his opponent. On January 13 2012 03:49 Tobberoth wrote: No friend, you need to move all the SCVs back to your main. Your OC is in the air, you can't return minerals to it. No. As I stated, you still need some near your Bunker, so you will only move back some of them. On January 13 2012 03:49 Tobberoth wrote: That means you will be oversaturated since even the zerg has enough workers to be oversaturated on one base, and zerg cut drones to get the push going. 24 drones do not oversaturate one base. More than 30 do, or more than 27 if you're only on one gas. As for this dual expand opening, there is some SCV cut to get the third faster, and some SCVs are on the low ground near the Bunker in case the Zerg decides to commit, which is why there won't be oversaturation on the main before some time. . On January 13 2012 03:49 Tobberoth wrote: Mules ignore SCV pathing, which was my point: You're mining your main out much faster. So? The Terran gets minerals anyway, and nothing prevents him from splitting SCVs adequately after he breaks the contain. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
I think DarkForce did some smart things like the hellions hanging back to roast reinforcing zerglings, but you say it doesn't matter that he knew before each game that an attack was coming and that's just absurd lol it makes all the difference in the world. I can tell you from experience the vast majority of terran players get 1 bunker at their natural, he got two in every game. His defenses were all planned and well executed. | ||
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:11 Tal0n wrote: any build that's been worked out to this much detail can be really good. ^ Exactly. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
You're not going to get ahead of the terran just by denying his nat while your push is there, but you might very well deny it long enough that when the terran can finally place his nat, you have just as good of a saturation on two base, and your third is popping. This, by any standard, should prove that this isn't an all-in. I feel that in the majority of cases, you will not be behind by much if you play it well, and in some cases, you might very well do more damage or even win if the terran is too greedy. This makes it more less exactly like a toss or terran timing push, perfectly defended, it leaves the opponent behind, that doesn't make it an all-in. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:04 TangSC wrote: Thanks, that's certainly an interesting interpretation/opinion of the events of those games and I appreciate your feedback. However, You say "you would have lost if" and those arguments take a bit of credibility away from what you're trying to say, that's just speculation. Zergs don't really have any advantage in standard Reactor Hellion games in which they're up 45 workers to 30 around the 7'30 mark with Lair begun, doesn't take a genius to know what happens if you're down 18 to 30 by this time with no Lair perspective. Your only chance from here is the opponent throwing away the game with some major blunder; it would take your credibility away to deny this. On January 13 2012 05:04 TangSC wrote: I think DarkForce did some smart things like the hellions hanging back to roast reinforcing zerglings, but you say it doesn't matter that he knew before each game that an attack was coming and that's just absurd lol it makes all the difference in the world. I can tell you from experience the vast majority of terran players get 1 bunker at their natural, he got two in every game. His defenses were all planned and well executed. Because one Bunker is actually enough... | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:27 TheDwf wrote: Zergs don't really have any advantage in standard Reactor Hellion games in which they're up 45 workers to 30 around the 7'30 mark with Lair begun, doesn't take a genius to know what happens if you're down 18 to 30 by this time with no Lair perspective. Your only chance from here is the opponent throwing away the game with some major blunder; it would take your credibility away to deny this. Because one Bunker is actually enough... Maybe you should be playing Tang then since you have the answer to his build. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:39 Jermstuddog wrote: Maybe you should be playing Tang then since you have the answer to his build. Problem is, I'm beyond dreadful at TvZ. ;( | ||
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treemaster
Canada18 Posts
Let's sum up shall we? 1. New, aggressive Zerg build gets posted 1. a) "pro" spouts Starcraft math that proves the build to be absolute shit 2. Someone who actually understands both math AND the game completely rips our "pro" a new one 2. a) "pro" blusters some more, but never acknowledges his basic math as utterly wrong 2. b) hordes of numbskulls say "well I'm an idiot but if the pro says so....." 3. "pro" challenges the build to an unfair match 3. a) despite having every advantage, and despite the arrogant bluster, "pro" loses 3 in a row 3. b) numbskulls and "pro" dig in their heels anyway, because who admits they are wrong on an Internet forum? Well, you may have noticed a large number of quotation marks in this post. That is because I believe that "being a professional" is not simply a meaningless title. Rather, I believe it's meaning to be more literal. If you want to be treated as a professional perhaps it would behoove you to act like one. Performing the metaphorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears screaming "nananana I can't heeeaaaarrr youuu" has the metaphorically equivalent effect of making you look like a whiny self-important child. Thanks for posting this build, tang ! Wouldn't it be great if there was some actual discussion on it? | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
the more you attack in lower leagues the more wins you get the more you attack at the highest level the more losses you get | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:04 Let it Raine wrote: i think aggressive zergs work like this the more you attack in lower leagues the more wins you get the more you attack at the highest level the more losses you get Raine you're a great player, but that's a bit of an over-generalization and I think a lot of professional Korean zergs would disagree. | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:57 treemaster wrote: This whole topic is quite sad. Let's sum up shall we? 1. New, aggressive Zerg build gets posted 1. a) "pro" spouts Starcraft math that proves the build to be absolute shit 2. Someone who actually understands both math AND the game completely rips our "pro" a new one 2. a) "pro" blusters some more, but never acknowledges his basic math as utterly wrong 2. b) hordes of numbskulls say "well I'm an idiot but if the pro says so....." 3. "pro" challenges the build to an unfair match 3. a) despite having every advantage, and despite the arrogant bluster, "pro" loses 3 in a row 3. b) numbskulls and "pro" dig in their heels anyway, because who admits they are wrong on an Internet forum? Well, you may have noticed a large number of quotation marks in this post. That is because I believe that "being a professional" is not simply a meaningless title. Rather, I believe it's meaning to be more literal. If you want to be treated as a professional perhaps it would behoove you to act like one. Performing the metaphorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears screaming "nananana I can't heeeaaaarrr youuu" has the metaphorically equivalent effect of making you look like a whiny self-important child. Thanks for posting this build, tang ! Wouldn't it be great if there was some actual discussion on it? It's because of people like you that Idra and other progamers don't post here anymore. He can say whatever he wants and I would go with his arguments instead of the ones of "people that can do math". Darkforce has more experience in the game and doesn't go fancy on the "math". I also give him right because I myself did roach pressure but stopped because of players like goody and thorzain being able to defend against me without any problem and then being ahead. | ||
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