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On January 13 2012 01:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
I still don't get what's wrong with the build at a pro level.
I arrived at my variation based on the facts that:
1) Hellions CANNOT fight 7 roaches in a cost-efficient manner.
2) Terran CANNOT apply pressure to me, expand, and adequately root out my roaches from his natural without taking significant losses all at the same time
3) As long as I keep the hellions from getting inside my main, I don't care what they do.
All of these are based on the limitations of the game. When I play poorly and my opponent does well, I still break even. I don't see how a pro is going to micro his way out of the fact that he only has 4 marines, a marauder, and a bunker to defend at that point of the game.
There is no room for micro to be the game-changer. Why would Hellions fight Roaches? All they have to do is try to intercept your Lings or stand behind the Bunker (if it's on the low ground), preventing Lings from attacking the bunker while your 8 Roaches will never kill a Bunker being repaired. 8 Roaches = 60 dps on a 350-hps Bunker. Even if you snipe some SCVs, his economy will be better than yours. You don't even know if he went CC35 (i. e. double expand). If it's the case, 3 MULEs will simply laugh at your 24 drones economy (yes, I know you drone after, but you're still on 24 drones for quite some time), regardless of how many SCVs you killed at his natural. If Reactor Hellion => dual expand can hold this while still retaining an advantage, push-oriented follow-ups will have no problem neither. As DarKFoRcE stated, this build is only worth it if your opponent went 1 rax FE / CC first => Reactor Hellion, but most of the time you won't even be able to know if he's going this follow-up anyway. Sure, this build may work even in Master League, but only because people don't know how to properly react. I mean, I once saw Beastyqt open with a BC rush against a Master League Zerg and still win anyway; what does this prove about the build's viability? Nothing. A good Terran will hold this with minimal defence (really, one Bunker, one Marauder and some SCVs repairing is all you need) while still building SCVs and thus having the advantage. Whether you win or not the game after this is irrelevant; he had the advantage after the opening. Who would purposefully play openings in which you're at a disadvantage if your opponent plays correctly? You shouldn't play with the “Let's hope he messes up his defence” mindset, right? Regardless of the macro transition, this opening is sadly this. For those who play chess, it's like moving your Queen in the first moves hoping for a Scholar's mate against your opponent. Yes, if your opponent plays incorrectly, you may win or get an advantage here, but against someone who knows his openings you will end up with a disadvantage, which means your opening was questionable at best.
There is literally no chance in the history of forever that 1 marauder, a bunker and SCVs hold this push. It's completely beyond the realm of posibilities, no matter how good the positioning is. It takes one marauder ages to kill 8 roaches, while 8 roaches kill 50 SCVs in no-time, good luck repairing that bunker against the roaches while they just constantly snipe the SCVs, it's a free race for the zerg to get impossibly ahead. And that's not even including 30 lings running by, surrounding the bunker etc.
The push is defendable, let's not go to extremes.
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On January 13 2012 01:10 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On January 13 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
I still don't get what's wrong with the build at a pro level.
I arrived at my variation based on the facts that:
1) Hellions CANNOT fight 7 roaches in a cost-efficient manner.
2) Terran CANNOT apply pressure to me, expand, and adequately root out my roaches from his natural without taking significant losses all at the same time
3) As long as I keep the hellions from getting inside my main, I don't care what they do.
All of these are based on the limitations of the game. When I play poorly and my opponent does well, I still break even. I don't see how a pro is going to micro his way out of the fact that he only has 4 marines, a marauder, and a bunker to defend at that point of the game.
There is no room for micro to be the game-changer. Why would Hellions fight Roaches? All they have to do is try to intercept your Lings or stand behind the Bunker (if it's on the low ground), preventing Lings from attacking the bunker while your 8 Roaches will never kill a Bunker being repaired. 8 Roaches = 60 dps on a 350-hps Bunker. Even if you snipe some SCVs, his economy will be better than yours. You don't even know if he went CC35 (i. e. double expand). If it's the case, 3 MULEs will simply laugh at your 24 drones economy (yes, I know you drone after, but you're still on 24 drones for quite some time), regardless of how many SCVs you killed at his natural. If Reactor Hellion => dual expand can hold this while still retaining an advantage, push-oriented follow-ups will have no problem neither. As DarKFoRcE stated, this build is only worth it if your opponent went 1 rax FE / CC first => Reactor Hellion, but most of the time you won't even be able to know if he's going this follow-up anyway. Sure, this build may work even in Master League, but only because people don't know how to properly react. I mean, I once saw Beastyqt open with a BC rush against a Master League Zerg and still win anyway; what does this prove about the build's viability? Nothing. A good Terran will hold this with minimal defence (really, one Bunker, one Marauder and some SCVs repairing is all you need) while still building SCVs and thus having the advantage. Whether you win or not the game after this is irrelevant; he had the advantage after the opening. Who would purposefully play openings in which you're at a disadvantage if your opponent plays correctly? You shouldn't play with the “Let's hope he messes up his defence” mindset, right? Regardless of the macro transition, this opening is sadly this. For those who play chess, it's like moving your Queen in the first moves hoping for a Scholar's mate against your opponent. Yes, if your opponent plays incorrectly, you may win or get an advantage here, but against someone who knows his openings you will end up with a disadvantage, which means your opening was questionable at best. There is literally no chance in the history of forever that 1 marauder, a bunker and SCVs hold this push. It's completely beyond the realm of posibilities, no matter how good the positioning is. It takes one marauder ages to kill 8 roaches, while 8 roaches kill 50 SCVs in no-time, good luck repairing that bunker against the roaches while they just constantly snipe the SCVs, it's a free race for the zerg to get impossibly ahead. And that's not even including 30 lings running by, surrounding the bunker etc. The push is defendable, let's not go to extremes.
There is 2 Marines too in the bunker, you know? And your Lings won't go anywhere against 6 Hellions in a tight area, sorry. Besides, I fail to see what's preventing the Terran to back SCVs a bit if the Roaches move forward to focus them.
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On January 13 2012 01:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:10 Tobberoth wrote:On January 13 2012 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On January 13 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
I still don't get what's wrong with the build at a pro level.
I arrived at my variation based on the facts that:
1) Hellions CANNOT fight 7 roaches in a cost-efficient manner.
2) Terran CANNOT apply pressure to me, expand, and adequately root out my roaches from his natural without taking significant losses all at the same time
3) As long as I keep the hellions from getting inside my main, I don't care what they do.
All of these are based on the limitations of the game. When I play poorly and my opponent does well, I still break even. I don't see how a pro is going to micro his way out of the fact that he only has 4 marines, a marauder, and a bunker to defend at that point of the game.
There is no room for micro to be the game-changer. Why would Hellions fight Roaches? All they have to do is try to intercept your Lings or stand behind the Bunker (if it's on the low ground), preventing Lings from attacking the bunker while your 8 Roaches will never kill a Bunker being repaired. 8 Roaches = 60 dps on a 350-hps Bunker. Even if you snipe some SCVs, his economy will be better than yours. You don't even know if he went CC35 (i. e. double expand). If it's the case, 3 MULEs will simply laugh at your 24 drones economy (yes, I know you drone after, but you're still on 24 drones for quite some time), regardless of how many SCVs you killed at his natural. If Reactor Hellion => dual expand can hold this while still retaining an advantage, push-oriented follow-ups will have no problem neither. As DarKFoRcE stated, this build is only worth it if your opponent went 1 rax FE / CC first => Reactor Hellion, but most of the time you won't even be able to know if he's going this follow-up anyway. Sure, this build may work even in Master League, but only because people don't know how to properly react. I mean, I once saw Beastyqt open with a BC rush against a Master League Zerg and still win anyway; what does this prove about the build's viability? Nothing. A good Terran will hold this with minimal defence (really, one Bunker, one Marauder and some SCVs repairing is all you need) while still building SCVs and thus having the advantage. Whether you win or not the game after this is irrelevant; he had the advantage after the opening. Who would purposefully play openings in which you're at a disadvantage if your opponent plays correctly? You shouldn't play with the “Let's hope he messes up his defence” mindset, right? Regardless of the macro transition, this opening is sadly this. For those who play chess, it's like moving your Queen in the first moves hoping for a Scholar's mate against your opponent. Yes, if your opponent plays incorrectly, you may win or get an advantage here, but against someone who knows his openings you will end up with a disadvantage, which means your opening was questionable at best. There is literally no chance in the history of forever that 1 marauder, a bunker and SCVs hold this push. It's completely beyond the realm of posibilities, no matter how good the positioning is. It takes one marauder ages to kill 8 roaches, while 8 roaches kill 50 SCVs in no-time, good luck repairing that bunker against the roaches while they just constantly snipe the SCVs, it's a free race for the zerg to get impossibly ahead. And that's not even including 30 lings running by, surrounding the bunker etc. The push is defendable, let's not go to extremes. There is 2 Marines too in the bunker, you know? And your Lings won't go anywhere against 6 Hellions in a tight area, sorry. Besides, I fail to see what's preventing the Terran to back SCVs a bit if the Roaches move forward to focus them.
You said "really all you need is a marader, a bunker and SCVs" which is what I was refering to. Regardless, why would you run lings into the hellions when you have 8 roaches? You'd either kill the hellions with the roaches, or the hellions are forced to back off. So you can just go past the bunker with the roaches to force the hellions back, then come with the lings afterwards. If the hellions try to come in and hit the lings, they get killed by the roaches. The only way to stop this from happening would be to have a wall, but there's few maps where you can wall in front of the natural that fast. So regardless, it stops the third from going up.
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msg me on EU: atndarkforce.423 im always up to play some TvZ as its a really funy matchup, maybe that can produce some replays to show the problems.
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Someone get me a EU account!
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On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
You said "really all you need is a marader, a bunker and SCVs" which is what I was refering to.
Yes, because you have already 2 Marines from your opening anyway... The Marauder and the Bunker are additional measures to defend this. Otherwise, you wouldn't get them, hence “all you need, etc.”
On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
Regardless, why would you run lings into the hellions when you have 8 roaches? You'd either kill the hellions with the roaches or the hellions are forced to back off. So you can just go past the bunker with the roaches to force the hellions back, then come with the lings afterwards. If the hellions try to come in and hit the lings, they get killed by the roaches. The only way to stop this from happening would be to have a wall, but there's few maps where you can wall in front of the natural that fast.
You don't seem to understand how tight the area can be for your Roaches/Lings. Tell me how you break this? Note how my second Marauder is nearly completed. Lings are totally shut down by Hellions behind the Bunker. You can't get “past” the Bunker with your Roaches because there is no room with the CC-supply wall. If you go around the CC, you still can't do much: Terran lifts his CC if you attack it, the second Marauder is soon out, Hellions can retreat on the ramp if you try to kill them with Roaches, etc. All you can do is kill some repairing SCVs, but my third CC is nearly completed and 3 MULEs + SCV production on 3 OCs will be more than enough to retain the economic advantage. And the Terran player has all the time he needs to prepare this, because no spine when Hellions arrive at the natural + gas being mined after 2400 on SCV scout if all you need to know the Roach rush is coming.
If the natural is too opened to defend efficiently, you stay on the high ground and laugh at Roaches with your Marauder in the Bunker.
On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
So regardless, it stops the third from going up.
Not at all, the third CC is built in base anyway.
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I read this on page one of this post:
As DarkForce said recently, it's really hard to be aggressive as Zerg in SC2 without being semi all in or all in.[/QUOTE]
This is my biggest petpeeve when reading forums. "the pros said this...." or "the pros said that..." Guess what 99% of us who play this game are not pros. When we play, our macro slips and we do not take full advantage of our resources as a pro player does. at the pro level, yeah an all-in timing can be considered that but as casual player we need to stop listening to what casters or pros define as all-ins. sure the roach-ling timing, if failed at the pro level most likely means a loss but at the levels below masters we all make mistakes.
What my point is, is that the average player makes mistakes, and a lot of them, allowing for tons of leeway in your timings and transitions. i have transitioned out of roach ling or bane bust timings just fine because while you are attacking your macro slips and while the terran or toss defend their macro slips. You can easily drop a third and drone up and be fine because the average player is not going to react like a pro player. Your opponent might be ahead but he is not a pro and might engage in a bad spot and you can crush him.
Most of us who play are not masters level so transitioning out of timings is very doable as zerg. The zerg failed all-in does not mean you are dead. lets put this myth to rest. IT ONLY APPLIES TO HIGH LEVEL PLAY (top diamond+)!!!!
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Tried this 2 times and it failed horribly. I am now down to 5% win vs terran, fml.
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On January 13 2012 01:40 DarKFoRcE wrote:
msg me on EU: atndarkforce.423 im always up to play some TvZ as its a really funy matchup, maybe that can produce some replays to show the problems.
Is this only to Tang or can I also join the party?
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On January 13 2012 01:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
You said "really all you need is a marader, a bunker and SCVs" which is what I was refering to. Yes, because you have already 2 Marines from your opening anyway... The Marauder and the Bunker are additional measures to defend this. Otherwise, you wouldn't get them, hence “all you need, etc.” Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
Regardless, why would you run lings into the hellions when you have 8 roaches? You'd either kill the hellions with the roaches or the hellions are forced to back off. So you can just go past the bunker with the roaches to force the hellions back, then come with the lings afterwards. If the hellions try to come in and hit the lings, they get killed by the roaches. The only way to stop this from happening would be to have a wall, but there's few maps where you can wall in front of the natural that fast. You don't seem to understand how tight the area can be for your Roaches/Lings. Tell me how you break this? Note how my second Marauder is nearly completed. Lings are totally shut down by Hellions behind the Bunker. You can't get “past” the Bunker with your Roaches because there is no room with the CC-supply wall. If you go around the CC, you still can't do much: Terran lifts his CC if you attack it, the second Marauder is soon out, Hellions can retreat on the ramp if you try to kill them with Roaches, etc. All you can do is kill some repairing SCVs, but my third CC is nearly completed and 3 MULEs + SCV production on 3 OCs will be more than enough to retain the economic advantage. And the Terran player has all the time he needs to prepare this, because no spine when Hellions arrive at the natural + gas being mined after 2400 on SCV scout if all you need to know the Roach rush is coming. If the natural is too opened to defend efficiently, you stay on the high ground and laugh at Roaches with your Marauder in the Bunker. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:20 Tobberoth wrote:
So regardless, it stops the third from going up. Not at all, the third CC is built in base anyway.
That's a good wall and you're correct that it can't be broken. Like you said however, if the roaches and lings move up the side of the CC, terran has to lift it off and move all the SCVs away, and you'll probably kill a few of the SCVs as they run... then you just stand there. Sure, your third OC is going up in your main, but you're still on one base, which is already oversaturated. Even with 3 orbitals spitting mules, your economy is limited and you're mining out your main extremely fast. Eventually you'll get enough marauders and you can force the lings and roaches to leave, but how fast? Two marauders aren't enough, and during this whole period, the zerg has started his third and done nothing but drone, the zerg will probably have close to 2 base saturation before you can place that nat OC safely again, which means the zerg is ahead economically.
There's just no way to get an expansion up and deny this push from doing damage, the push only needs to contain the terran and stop them from mining from their nat.
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the replays dont really show alot tho, as i failed pretty hard in the first two :[. only the last was okay, but your zerg is better than my terran. i still think you win despite your inferior BO.
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I think the replays do show a lot and that you played as well as most terrans in mid/high masters. You played strong defense with bunkers, nice building placement and good timings/micro. I agree that I've had more experience playing Zerg than you playing Terran, because it's your offrace, but I think the games at least show the style is versatile and strong, even if your opponent knows you're doing it. Imagine if gold/platinum/diamond players master that timing attack and use it in their leagues, it would be devastating.
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It just showed that if you dont know what to do against and
game 1: dont wall
game 2: be too greedy/dont check for banes morphing
game 3: suck at terran
you lose. sure its good against bad players, because they dont have the experience to defend it good. but once people learn that, the build becomes inefficient as it doesnt do enough damage. and at some point it wont only be "good" players who are able to exploit this. but yea w/e if you really think that this proves that your strategy is good, im out of here, good luck.
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This timing attack is the same as all other timing attacks that protoss did or do. The reason why 6gate attacks went out of fashion is because zergs know when it comes and how to crush it. Same will happen once everyone starts to use this timing attack.
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Another big bonus I am taking away from this thread is that there are lots of small variations that can be done with this.
If I get my gas a tiny bit sooner and push out a tiny bit later, I can do a Tang push.
If Tang gets his gas a bit later and delays ling speed, he can studdog it up.
That small detail makes this kind of play 2x as good IMO. Does T need to defend 7 roach? Or 7 roaches and 30 lings?
Hell, get a 2nd geyser and slam down a Bling nest just before you move out. Now you've turned it into a truly all-in roach/ling/bling bust.
Its almost... Terran-like...
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I never said it "proves" the strategy is good, I already know the strategy is good - that's why I wrote the guide lol. I don't understand why you asked me to play games if you were going to say the strategy is bad after, regardless of the results?
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because i wanted to see how it is to play against it and in case we are similar with T and Z it would show problems with it. had i crushed you because my terran is better than your zerg, you would still think its a good strategy and simply say that im a better player, right?
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On January 13 2012 03:22 DarKFoRcE wrote:
because i wanted to see how it is to play against it and in case we are similar with T and Z it would show problems with it. had i crushed you because my terran is better than your zerg, you would still think its a good strategy and simply say that im a better player, right?
I knew that wasn't a possibility, my ZvT is strong and it's your offrace.
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On January 13 2012 03:08 TangSC wrote:
I think the replays do show a lot and that you played as well as most terrans in mid/high masters. You played strong defense with bunkers, nice building placement and good timings/micro. I agree that I've had more experience playing Zerg than you playing Terran, because it's your offrace, but I think the games at least show the style is versatile and strong, even if your opponent knows you're doing it. Imagine if gold/platinum/diamond players master that timing attack and use it in their leagues, it would be devastating.
Sorry, but for instance at 10'00 in the second replay (the 24'09 length Shakuras game) DarKFoRcE is already missing more than 10 SCVs and basically 30-40 supply, so it's 63 drones to 37 SCVs with no threat instead of 63 drones to ~50 SCVs and a possible quite big (~40-50 army supply with Stim) push incoming, which would probably kill you since you won't have speed banes, you won't have speed roaches and here you don't even have speed ling (though it may be a mistake?). You can't prove anything with someone offracing, even if he's GM with his main race, and I don't mean to be disrespectful towards DarKFoRcE saying this. Besides, you skipped Speed for lings and made drones straight after your Roaches instead of Lings, which is quite another build order (of course economically better than droning after 52 or 60 supply).
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EPT
