On January 12 2012 04:56 DarKFoRcE wrote: So what do you do if your opponent goes reactor hellion -> banshee (maybe even with cloak) -> CC? If you aim for the later i allin i suggested you have more time to find out what your opponent is doing, and also success rate against builds where it actualyl works is probably higher.
If you have an EU acc im willing to play T vs your build, altho my T sucks. Just to see whether its as easy to counter as i think it is.
edit: By the way you put it, almost nothing is really an allin, because if you do enough damage etc. you almost always have a transition followup bla bla bla
That build is one of the strongest, but usually you can still break in. I've had games that were really close against reactor hellion/banshee expands and it's been win some / lose some. Usually depends on how much damage I do, how fast I respond to their banshees, etc. I'm definitely up for practicing on EU, though I can't today. Message me your EU info and we'll experiment soon.
I dont see how you will ever do damage if terran has a wallin + a bunker behind that and SCVs repairing.
On January 12 2012 05:06 Micket wrote: You make 8 roaches, a ton of lings and go and attack. You see a third orbital at the natural. Perfect! My blind build order might get a build order win! I swarm the front with my forces... and he holds it losing basically nothing. Hellions roast the lings. 1 marauder and 1 tank with marines in a repaired bunker clean up the roaches. When an all in cant beat a triple orbital opening if the Terran gets bunkers, then the all in relies on huge mistakes by the Terran.
It depends on positioning and micro. I've beaten terrans with 2 bunkers using it. As long as your roaches beat the hellions and your lings can surround the bunkers, you're fine. It's not an all-in and can without a doubt be defended, so you have to pick your fight. If the terran has a wall with bunkers and SCVs repairing, you should notice quickly that you're not going to break it, so just back off. You've taken a third and he can't move out, so just drone.
I'm surprised a terran could have hellions, marines in a bunker, a marauder, a tank and SCVs repairing while going 3 orbital by the 7 minute mark though.
On January 12 2012 01:55 blinkblue wrote: Darkforce's reply is why players should be learning from the best and not these cheesy "pressure" builds.
Tang's builds are based on blind aggression. As Darkforce explains, he uses early aggression as a reactionary response.
Top-tier players decision-making is logical and changes based on what they see, including the tiniest details. Tang's builds are based on build orders that assume his opponent is going to make a mistake.
Darkforce's reply is an opinion, no more valid than others'. He has bias's like anyone else. Opening with early aggression with planned transitions is not "blind".
His reply regarding his reactionary response is not his opinion, it's fact. You brought up a game as an example of darkforce using a ling aggression build as if he has blindly chosen to use it at the start of the match while excluding all of the obvious early-game events.
I never used DarkForce as a reference, I've only seen one or two of his games. I don't know where you're getting this concept of blind aggression, that's not at all what I'm suggesting. My argument is that having an aggressive opening in response to Terran expansion builds can be very safe/solid play if executed properly with planned transitions.
Your build is not really a reaction to an expansion though, its just a blind 2 base allin.
That's not a fair judge. There is enough early scouting to skip the attack in case. If you go muta-bling you also play your build accordingly and transition to e.g. infestor dependent on your scouting. Nobody calls a 10-minute 10 muta build 'all-in' because of that.
On January 12 2012 04:56 DarKFoRcE wrote: So what do you do if your opponent goes reactor hellion -> banshee (maybe even with cloak) -> CC? If you aim for the later i allin i suggested you have more time to find out what your opponent is doing, and also success rate against builds where it actualyl works is probably higher.
If you have an EU acc im willing to play T vs your build, altho my T sucks. Just to see whether its as easy to counter as i think it is.
edit: By the way you put it, almost nothing is really an allin, because if you do enough damage etc. you almost always have a transition followup bla bla bla
That build is one of the strongest, but usually you can still break in. I've had games that were really close against reactor hellion/banshee expands and it's been win some / lose some. Usually depends on how much damage I do, how fast I respond to their banshees, etc. I'm definitely up for practicing on EU, though I can't today. Message me your EU info and we'll experiment soon.
I dont see how you will ever do damage if terran has a wallin + a bunker behind that and SCVs repairing.
If the Terran spent money getting a bunker and marines, he either doesn't have hellions, doesn't have a banshee, or cut SCVs to do so. There is a proper course of action for every possibility. Declairing a build "blind all-in" because Zerg is attacking before the 15 minute mark is unfair and closed-minded.
Mutas are a blind all-in. What if he just makes a bunch of marines and turrets? Guess you just lost right?
2 rax is a blind all-in. If Zerg didn't go 15 hatch its GG right?
I don't do Tangs exact build, I just do the naked 7 roaches, no lings. But all the same principles apply. Its a build that works and doesn't have to do damage to be worth it.
TL has a horrible attitude toward new builds these days.
I was going to make a similar guide last week but decided not to because I knew I would get this same shitty response, if not worse.
Thanks Tang for putting the effort in to writing a guide and shbaring some knowledge.
Fuck everybody else for preferring to stay in the dark.
Attacking Terran before Broodlords is auto-lose. Don't bother.
On January 12 2012 01:55 blinkblue wrote: Darkforce's reply is why players should be learning from the best and not these cheesy "pressure" builds.
Tang's builds are based on blind aggression. As Darkforce explains, he uses early aggression as a reactionary response.
Top-tier players decision-making is logical and changes based on what they see, including the tiniest details. Tang's builds are based on build orders that assume his opponent is going to make a mistake.
Darkforce's reply is an opinion, no more valid than others'. He has bias's like anyone else. Opening with early aggression with planned transitions is not "blind".
His reply regarding his reactionary response is not his opinion, it's fact. You brought up a game as an example of darkforce using a ling aggression build as if he has blindly chosen to use it at the start of the match while excluding all of the obvious early-game events.
I never used DarkForce as a reference, I've only seen one or two of his games. I don't know where you're getting this concept of blind aggression, that's not at all what I'm suggesting. My argument is that having an aggressive opening in response to Terran expansion builds can be very safe/solid play if executed properly with planned transitions.
Your build is not really a reaction to an expansion though, its just a blind 2 base allin.
That's not a fair judge. There is enough early scouting to skip the attack in case. If you go muta-bling you also play your build accordingly and transition to e.g. infestor dependent on your scouting. Nobody calls a 10-minute 10 muta build 'all-in' because of that.
Thats because a 10 minute muta build isn't all in... Mutas defend almost anything terran can throw at you. Just some marine tank timing pushes are hard to stop, but even those can be cleaned up pretty easily.
On January 12 2012 04:56 DarKFoRcE wrote: So what do you do if your opponent goes reactor hellion -> banshee (maybe even with cloak) -> CC? If you aim for the later i allin i suggested you have more time to find out what your opponent is doing, and also success rate against builds where it actualyl works is probably higher.
If you have an EU acc im willing to play T vs your build, altho my T sucks. Just to see whether its as easy to counter as i think it is.
edit: By the way you put it, almost nothing is really an allin, because if you do enough damage etc. you almost always have a transition followup bla bla bla
That build is one of the strongest, but usually you can still break in. I've had games that were really close against reactor hellion/banshee expands and it's been win some / lose some. Usually depends on how much damage I do, how fast I respond to their banshees, etc. I'm definitely up for practicing on EU, though I can't today. Message me your EU info and we'll experiment soon.
I dont see how you will ever do damage if terran has a wallin + a bunker behind that and SCVs repairing.
If the Terran spent money getting a bunker and marines, he either doesn't have hellions, doesn't have a banshee, or cut SCVs to do so. There is a proper course of action for every possibility. Declairing a build "blind all-in" because Zerg is attacking before the 15 minute mark is unfair and closed-minded.
Mutas are a blind all-in. What if he just makes a bunch of marines and turrets? Guess you just lost right?
2 rax is a blind all-in. If Zerg didn't go 15 hatch its GG right?
I don't do Tangs exact build, I just do the naked 7 roaches, no lings. But all the same principles apply. Its a build that works and doesn't have to do damage to be worth it.
TL has a horrible attitude toward new builds these days.
I was going to make a similar guide last week but decided not to because I knew I would get this same shitty response, if not worse.
Thanks Tang for putting the effort in to writing a guide and shbaring some knowledge.
Fuck everybody else for preferring to stay in the dark.
Attacking Terran before Broodlords is auto-lose. Don't bother.
are you saying fast 2 base muta is all in? Ret goes fast 2base muta. It's a nice build that holds almost anything and has a good macro potential.
And I can't believe you are trying to argue with DarkForce. I think I'll go with darkforce since I know for sure he's better.
On January 12 2012 04:56 DarKFoRcE wrote: So what do you do if your opponent goes reactor hellion -> banshee (maybe even with cloak) -> CC? If you aim for the later i allin i suggested you have more time to find out what your opponent is doing, and also success rate against builds where it actualyl works is probably higher.
If you have an EU acc im willing to play T vs your build, altho my T sucks. Just to see whether its as easy to counter as i think it is.
edit: By the way you put it, almost nothing is really an allin, because if you do enough damage etc. you almost always have a transition followup bla bla bla
That build is one of the strongest, but usually you can still break in. I've had games that were really close against reactor hellion/banshee expands and it's been win some / lose some. Usually depends on how much damage I do, how fast I respond to their banshees, etc. I'm definitely up for practicing on EU, though I can't today. Message me your EU info and we'll experiment soon.
I dont see how you will ever do damage if terran has a wallin + a bunker behind that and SCVs repairing.
If the Terran spent money getting a bunker and marines, he either doesn't have hellions, doesn't have a banshee, or cut SCVs to do so. There is a proper course of action for every possibility. Declairing a build "blind all-in" because Zerg is attacking before the 15 minute mark is unfair and closed-minded.
Mutas are a blind all-in. What if he just makes a bunch of marines and turrets? Guess you just lost right?
2 rax is a blind all-in. If Zerg didn't go 15 hatch its GG right?
I don't do Tangs exact build, I just do the naked 7 roaches, no lings. But all the same principles apply. Its a build that works and doesn't have to do damage to be worth it.
TL has a horrible attitude toward new builds these days.
I was going to make a similar guide last week but decided not to because I knew I would get this same shitty response, if not worse.
Thanks Tang for putting the effort in to writing a guide and shbaring some knowledge.
Fuck everybody else for preferring to stay in the dark.
Attacking Terran before Broodlords is auto-lose. Don't bother.
I dont even know how to argue with someone like you. You seem to think its a good thing to build 7 roaches and walk over the map? what the fuck? How will you defend your natural against hellions? And what kind of damage do you think your roaches will do? 1 Bunker with some SCVs repairing easily defends the roaches, probably even if its built at the natural, doesnt even have to be in the main.
Its not Darkforce I have a problem with, its all of TL.
If you read TL, Zerg either cannot attack, or should not attack before the 15 minute mark in any MU.
While the principles of this thought process make perfect sense, the mantra of "NR 20 Zerg" is entirely too excessive in the entire scene.
Roach based aggression is a great way to hold back Terran inearly game ZvT through forcing T into a defensive posture, thereby allowing one the freedom to drone up harass free.
This is the same thing as hellion harass, just on the opposite side. Why does everybody hate on it so hard?
On January 12 2012 07:05 Jermstuddog wrote: Its not Darkforce I have a problem with, its all of TL.
If you read TL, Zerg either cannot attack, or should not attack before the 15 minute mark in any MU.
While the principles of this thought process make perfect sense, the mantra of "NR 20 Zerg" is entirely too excessive in the entire scene.
Roach based aggression is a great way to hold back Terran inearly game ZvT through forcing T into a defensive posture, thereby allowing one the freedom to drone up harass free.
This is the same thing as hellion harass, just on the opposite side. Why does everybody hate on it so hard?
Im not saying you cant be aggressive with Zerg, im just saying the allin suggested here is bad.
You havent answered any of my question. I assume you dont have any good arguments and just throw your "NR 20 Zerg bla bla bla" bullshit around to hide that.
so when your 7 roaches move out you ALSO have a macrohatch/evo building and a spine + third queen done? what :D? please tell me, at what supply are you starting to build your hatch/evo and when is that mysterious roachattack coming?
On January 12 2012 07:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: so when your 7 roaches move out you ALSO have a macrohatch/evo building and a spine + third queen done? what :D? please tell me, at what supply are you starting to build your hatch/evo and when is that mysterious roachattack coming?
Yes actually.
My build is: 26 RW 28 OVx2 7 roaches @ warren pop Drone to 44 Hatch Evo Spine Queen OVx2 Mass drone.
7 roaches is enough to 1-shot a hellion if it gets close and enough fire power to be a nuissance in Ts nat. If T didn't expand that's fine, just camp his ramp until he gets siege mode (its gonna be a while).
The roaches move out at the same time you buld your wall.
You haven't answeared Darkforce question. What time or supply do you build the hatch and evo chamber? I'm guessing after the 44 drones but thats pretty late to defend vs hellions.
On January 12 2012 07:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: so when your 7 roaches move out you ALSO have a macrohatch/evo building and a spine + third queen done? what :D? please tell me, at what supply are you starting to build your hatch/evo and when is that mysterious roachattack coming?
just watch leenock, drg .. (however i admit they often just want to get rid of their roaches built exclusively for hellion defense). Anyway DRG regularly does 8+ roach pushes pretty early (7..9 minute). Leenock is somewhat more all-innish.
You don't have to all in, its an option in case you scout greedy play. I personally dislike slow roaches as they are just dead money during their ~1 minute walk to the opponent. Slings with an optional bling morph near the opponent are more flexible to punish greedy expands IMO.
And yes, western zergs are playing much more macro oriented compared to korean zergs. Somehow Korean Zergs are more successful .. hm
he builds it at 44/43 i assume. so you'll have like 22ish drones when you are building your macrohatch. i dont know man, to me that sounds like you'll be far behind in eco unless you do alt of damage.
i just looked at some of the screens of the replays in the guide and to me it seems like you win more despite having a bad build, and not because of your build .
good example is shakuras. you build a third base with 22 drones while terran is already at 30 scvs, next screenshot terran has 3 base secured and is 20 supply ahead. i mean, good job on still winning that kind of game, but maybe it would be a bit easier if you would play a better BO
EPT
.
