|
On January 12 2012 07:26 Jermstuddog wrote:
Roaches flat out stop any fast expo and can't be touched by hellions... what's the problem?
Roaches don't stop a fast expo and are very expensive to make early game. You might scream LARVAEEEEEE but that's not a good argument to go for roaches. You lose a drone, 150 minerals and delay the macro hatch+queen which means more LARVAEEEE. Using roaches just to defend is not a good option and they don't do much damage if the terran has good enough micro. 7 roaches don't contain the terran for long. Make 2 marauders and it's over with the contain. Even if he makes 1 tanks and does some micro it's enough.
|
On January 12 2012 07:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
The thing about the roach aggression is you are forcing T to stick on one base until he can deal with the roaches.
That simple fact adversely affects pretty much everything about early macro for the Terran player.
i doubt you need to stay in your main to defend against 7 roaches. maybe against a hardcore roach ling allin with no eco behind, terran should go up their ramp, but not against 7 naked roaches.
|
I'll provide a replay when I get home tonight (about 5 hours from now).
Its fairly hard for T to have perfect bunker placement where I can't do SOMETHING with my roaches.
Maybe he has his nat, but he doesn't have the army to clear out my roaches, so he sure as hell isn't mining from it.
Just don't fight his bunker. There are plenty of great targets.
|
i usually go
15 hatch
16 pool
18 gas
21 1 x lings
28 roach warren
2 overlords
7 roach pull out all but 1 drone from gas
2 overlords
+1 queen drones
then you go harass the terran and you should be able to get 45ish drones
and when you get 100 gas for speed you take all gases and and get lair + 1 armor
all of this kicks in perfectly and you will have 3-4 hatches depending on the map with 4 queens and 55ish drones while being super safe
also when you go with your roaches, at 50 supply when you hit his front you should see what tech he's going since he has to reveal it
also you can hold any 8-9 min push with some micro and a few lings
|
I really have problems against helions, especially when combined with rauder or allin. It's so hard to be prepared for that and banshees etc.
I do want to learn the game properly though and while this may have sucess I do believe Darkforce if he's saying that the build can be countered and that you are behind.
I would love to know though if you (Darkforce) have an alternative for agressive Zerg play against Helions. I like to play the aggressive part and this guide here was the best to find. Is it possible at all to be agressive in your opinion? And if yes, how?
|
Yeah Darkforce I admit in that game you mention, my terran opponent was definitely ahead after the first roach/ling push but that was a worst-case scenario where my opening did terribly and I didn't break in and kill SCVs (Which is actually because of a micro-error where I attack one of my own lings instead of the depot but shh don't tell anyone).
The fact is people underestimate zerg ability to transition out of something like roach pressure and roach/ling pressure. A lot of people see zerg as an "either or" scenario with no area in between. People think either you're all-in or you're massing drones. I personally believe there are pressure builds that allow zerg to attack and macro, and there are circumstances that make it more or less likely to be successful. And this style of play gives you a *chance* to win the game outright against an overly greedy player and gives you some distinct advantages like forcing hellions not to harass your expansion.
|
On January 12 2012 07:39 CallmeMuppet wrote:
I really have problems against helions, especially when combined with rauder or allin. It's so hard to be prepared for that and banshees etc.
I do want to learn the game properly though and while this may have sucess I do believe Darkforce if he's saying that the build can be countered and that you are behind.
I would love to know though if you (Darkforce) have an alternative for agressive Zerg play against Helions. I like to play the aggressive part and this guide here was the best to find. Is it possible at all to be agressive in your opinion? And if yes, how?
well you can go for the roach ling baneling push that i recommended earlier, watch DRG vs MMA at MLG for example (there is a replay of this), DRG does it twice there.
If you scout your opponent going for CC -> gas -> rax -> reactor hellions, then you can play the build that is recommended here, except for that i would just build like 7-9 roaches, pull drones off gas and then go drone behind it and not get lings. in that case your opponent will see the roaches way later than with reactor hellion (because the hellions are later) and you can actually do a good amount of damage.
The same is true for 1 rax -> CC -> reactor hellion builds, altho here its a bigger gamble, because if you scout 1 rax CC your opponent could just follow it up with 3 rax for example and then the roachpush does nothing.
I have actually played around a bit with this kind of early roach pressure a bit against ryung at i44 in england, and really the only time it worked was when he went CC first into reactor hellion, the rest of the time it didnt do enough damage.
edit: in general though, i'd recommend to just learn solid 2 base muta play. for example the build leenock does: get +1 armor before lair, macrohatch at ~50 and then react to whatever your opponent is doing. if he is super greedy with a fast third you can try go to for a muta ling baneling attack.
|
On January 12 2012 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:39 CallmeMuppet wrote:
I really have problems against helions, especially when combined with rauder or allin. It's so hard to be prepared for that and banshees etc.
I do want to learn the game properly though and while this may have sucess I do believe Darkforce if he's saying that the build can be countered and that you are behind.
I would love to know though if you (Darkforce) have an alternative for agressive Zerg play against Helions. I like to play the aggressive part and this guide here was the best to find. Is it possible at all to be agressive in your opinion? And if yes, how? well you can go for the roach ling baneling push that i recommended earlier, watch DRG vs MMA at MLG for example (there is a replay of this), DRG does it twice there. If you scout your opponent going for CC -> gas -> rax -> reactor hellions, then you can play the build that is recommended here, except for that i would just build like 7-9 roaches, pull drones off gas and then go drone behind it and not get lings. in that case your opponent will see the roaches way later than with reactor hellion (because the hellions are later) and you can actually do a good amount of damage. The same is true for 1 rax -> CC -> reactor hellion builds, altho here its a bigger gamble, because if you scout 1 rax CC your opponent could just follow it up with 3 rax for example and then the roachpush does nothing. I have actually played around a bit with this kind of early roach pressure a bit against ryung at i44 in england, and really the only time it worked was when he went CC first into reactor hellion, the rest of the time it didnt do enough damage. edit: in general though, i'd recommend to just learn solid 2 base muta play. for example the build leenock does: get +1 armor before lair, macrohatch at ~50 and then react to whatever your opponent is doing. if he is super greedy with a fast third you can try go to for a muta ling baneling attack.
Darkforce, I know, you've been multiple GM or have attended in multiple lans with good results, but could you, please, try it at least 1 day before saying that this build is a blind allin ? From the look of it, it seems that you simply didn't even try that build. It's 8 roaches and 24+ (at least) zerglings coming at the entrance @ 7:15 7:30 !
I don't know about you, but I hardly see any terran with a bunk or 2 and an expansion and whatever you can think of cauz it's quite early...
If not, there's an alternative i've brought up with experience but it has only 4-5 roaches and 24+/- zerglings at 8 min but you have way more drones and can easily defend against any hellions openings (which is like what 99% of the terrans in EU ?). This build has already saturated both bases and is taking a 3rd. You can easily transition for 3 gas and go for mutas.
However, as darkforce suggested, i'm not sure if that build far well against banshees. I guess I could build an evo chamber in between, sadly i've not faced a lot of banshees followup lately.
|
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=17270
As promised.
I would like to point out a few things about the replay:
1) obviously, Proxima is a much better player than I.
2) My roaches do the dumbest thing possible and attack the bunker, like i specifically say not to do. (Notably, he has 4 marines and a Marauder to defend his entire base with... not exactly what I would call a sizeable defending army)
3) I still end up with a 20 worker lead until the 14 minute mark.
This was a horrible game by me with terrible decision-making when it comes to my roaches, yet I still manage to kill off 6 SCVs and secure a sizeable economic advantage for the next several minutes of play...
edit: also note, even if I hadn't killed those SCVs, I would have still been up by 10 workers.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download/id/17272
Here's another one where my Roaches are equally useless. Make sure you note his army at the time of my attack, 3 Marines and 4 Hellions with 2 more on the way. I manage to kill off a reactor, a tech lab, stupidly attack a factory? for like 30 seconds, then still manage to kill off 2 SCVs, 1 hellion, and 2 marines before my roaches go down. By the time it's all said and done, I have a 24 worker lead at the high point, he has to rebuild his addons, is afraid to take his nat, and I am completely safe the whole time behind a complete wall (with queen blocking of course). Had I spent my roaches doing anything decent, like killing depots, or harassing his mineral line, my lead would have been much more significant.
I then proceed to play terribly and throw away units for the next 20 minutes, still winning anyway because the lead is too great to overcome.
Mind you, Tang's attack hits at roughly the same time as mine and comes along with 30+ lings as he sees fit. I prefer a safer, more economic style, but I am sure he wins MANY games simply due to the huge army discepancies he comes across. Holding off ANY roach-based pressure around the 7-8 minute mark is a tall order for Terran because they have most likely been working off of 1 rax and 1 factory (and probably spent over a minute building add-ons) up until that point in the game.
|
People are arguing semantics. Some people will think it's all-in, some will not. There is not a definitive line.
Cloaked banshees have to do a good amount of damage to pay for themselves. They're not considered all-in because they have such an extremely high potential to do damage and more than pay for themselves. Even if they don't immediately, they are still very useful in harassing your opponent later and forcing resources spent into detection.
This roach rush has to do a good amount of damage to pay for themselves as well. However, according to Darkforce, who I agree with and would trust a lot more than Tang, the ability for it to do damage is significantly smaller vs a competent opponent doing anything other than a greedy expo+reactor hellion build. Yes, it's possible to have a build-order win, but in too many cases it will not do enough damage, put you significantly behind in economy, and leave you susceptible to a marine/tank 2-base push or all-in.
|
On January 12 2012 13:06 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 12 2012 07:39 CallmeMuppet wrote:
I really have problems against helions, especially when combined with rauder or allin. It's so hard to be prepared for that and banshees etc.
I do want to learn the game properly though and while this may have sucess I do believe Darkforce if he's saying that the build can be countered and that you are behind.
I would love to know though if you (Darkforce) have an alternative for agressive Zerg play against Helions. I like to play the aggressive part and this guide here was the best to find. Is it possible at all to be agressive in your opinion? And if yes, how? well you can go for the roach ling baneling push that i recommended earlier, watch DRG vs MMA at MLG for example (there is a replay of this), DRG does it twice there. If you scout your opponent going for CC -> gas -> rax -> reactor hellions, then you can play the build that is recommended here, except for that i would just build like 7-9 roaches, pull drones off gas and then go drone behind it and not get lings. in that case your opponent will see the roaches way later than with reactor hellion (because the hellions are later) and you can actually do a good amount of damage. The same is true for 1 rax -> CC -> reactor hellion builds, altho here its a bigger gamble, because if you scout 1 rax CC your opponent could just follow it up with 3 rax for example and then the roachpush does nothing. I have actually played around a bit with this kind of early roach pressure a bit against ryung at i44 in england, and really the only time it worked was when he went CC first into reactor hellion, the rest of the time it didnt do enough damage. edit: in general though, i'd recommend to just learn solid 2 base muta play. for example the build leenock does: get +1 armor before lair, macrohatch at ~50 and then react to whatever your opponent is doing. if he is super greedy with a fast third you can try go to for a muta ling baneling attack. Darkforce, I know, you've been multiple GM or have attended in multiple lans with good results, but could you, please, try it at least 1 day before saying that this build is a blind allin ? From the look of it, it seems that you simply didn't even try that build. It's 8 roaches and 24+ (at least) zerglings coming at the entrance @ 7:15 7:30 ! I don't know about you, but I hardly see any terran with a bunk or 2 and an expansion and whatever you can think of cauz it's quite early... If not, there's an alternative i've brought up with experience but it has only 4-5 roaches and 24+/- zerglings at 8 min but you have way more drones and can easily defend against any hellions openings (which is like what 99% of the terrans in EU ?). This build has already saturated both bases and is taking a 3rd. You can easily transition for 3 gas and go for mutas. However, as darkforce suggested, i'm not sure if that build far well against banshees. I guess I could build an evo chamber in between, sadly i've not faced a lot of banshees followup lately.
If i really have to try every build that i argue against here in the strategy forum i would probably not be doing much useful practise. Im sorry if this sounds arrogant, but im here to help by providing my opinion, not to waste my time on builds i think suck. In this case i have even tried builds that are almost the same like the one described here, as i pointed out before.
|
On January 07 2012 00:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:00 TangSC wrote:On January 06 2012 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
overall this kind of build surely works well on lower levels, but against good players i think its crap.
personally i think the roach ling baneling push that you see in GSL sometimes is way better. I think the roach/ling/bane push is great too, but it's an over-generalization to say it is "crap" against good players. It might not work against Kas or immvp, but it will work to very high level master and even GM. Also, if you play someone 5 games in a row, it's helpful to alternate between this timing attack (or a comparable roach/ling/baneling timing attack) and standard macro play. i guess we have different standards what we call a "good" player.
Question is though, how many people using this forum feels that builds they use have to work against MVP?
Don't get me wrong, it's amazing to have insanely good players and pros like you who can give their opinion on builds and strategies, and I make sure to always value opinions of a pro highly, but don't you agree that if a build is good enough to do well in high master/low GM, without being cheesy allin like a 6pool pulling all drones, it does deserve merit? Remember, most people reading this forum will never ever play against a GM player, regardless if they follow Tangs advice or yours.
Seems to me that while your critique of this build gives a TON of insight, it makes little sense to recommend players not to use it because it doesn't work against good players, when your definition of a good player is a top 50 GM korean.
Just my opinion though, it feels like people are too harsh against Tangs builds for the wrong reasons. Better to have a clear guide how to do roach/ling pressure without losing the game outright if it's defended, than to have all the low league players go 100% allin roach/ling pushes which are not only weaker, but also have no way to transition out of.
|
Don't you guys think that getting a third and being able to spread creep against a terran going reactored hellions isn't enough of a benefit to make this build worth it?
If your opponent defends, his push will be delayed because he made a deviation from his build, and you will have enough time to drone enough and still be able to defend when the push comes.
Going aggressive is a style, and it's different from standard 2 base muta where you are defensive and get a good early eco.
Still, if you go 2 hatch muta, and he has turrents and marines in place, you won't be able to harass. If you made 7 mutas, that's 700 700 that don't pay for themselves. This fact doesn't make 2 hatch muta not viable, actually it's a great build. Mutas gives you map control and all that good jazz, and the 700 700 is not WASTED, it just doesn't pay for itself right away.
Try to think about this build in a similar fashion, it may be viable, it might not be viable I don't know and i can't tell to be honest, but it's not an all in win or loose push, because at some point you stop making units and start droning, trying to transition out of it. If you can, after doing this build, hold a standard marine tank push, that's enough to make it not suck
This build isn't just a push. The push gives you a lot of options to do things that 2 hatch muta can't do, like getting that fast third against hellions. There should be more enphasis about these things you get to do
|
You don't have to be a top player to hold this off and then be ahead as terran. The terran who is facing against this build will be a lot worse than MVP, but so is the zerg who is executing it. We can assume that they are on the same skill level, and then it comes down to which build is better I think.
I don't think people are being harsh I think that they point out the weaknesses and strengths which is the point in posting to strategy forums isn't it ?
|
On January 12 2012 23:29 djtopa wrote:
You don't have to be a top player to hold this off and then be ahead as terran. The terran who is facing against this build will be a lot worse than MVP, but so is the zerg who is executing it. We can assume that they are on the same skill level, and then it comes down to which build is better I think.
I don't think people are being harsh I think that they point out the weaknesses and strengths which is the point in posting to strategy forums isn't it ?
Yeah honestly I enjoy hearing both sides of the argument and think it's reasonable to look at it either way. There are strengths and weaknesses to any build, I just think an aggressive style will improve certain fundamentals faster than macro play.
|
Me and tang have had a few conversations about aggressive roach openings, he has asked me to post a few replays for general discussion. Here is a replay of a very similar style to tang's.
The previous debate(s)
1. You are in danger to cloaked banshee follow ups: http://drop.sc/89777
This Terran opens up with a proxy 2 rax, I continue with my usual build with drone micro, The reason for roaches here is to aggressively scout the terran, to force him to show me what he is doing, The roaches are "sacked," while attempted to kill harvesters/buying time, meanwhile I am droning, and queening, and spore crawler making.
2. This hinders your ability to macro. http://drop.sc/89779
This game I go roach because I see that the terran is getting 1 gas. This means that he is likely two reaper/helion expand, or do some kind of 1 base all in. I have no idea which, so I am making roaches to force the terran to show me what he is doing, and to counter reaper/helion expand.
Here you can clearly see that I get a mega drone/base advantage, know exactly what the terran is doing, and have the best surround/win ever.
|
On January 12 2012 23:29 djtopa wrote:
You don't have to be a top player to hold this off and then be ahead as terran. The terran who is facing against this build will be a lot worse than MVP, but so is the zerg who is executing it. We can assume that they are on the same skill level, and then it comes down to which build is better I think.
I don't think people are being harsh I think that they point out the weaknesses and strengths which is the point in posting to strategy forums isn't it ?
DarkForce has pretty much said the build sucks. Tang responded that it has worked well for him against good players in high master. DarkForce responded that those aren't good players. I'd say that's pretty harsh.
As for a terrans holding this off because the user isn't much better? I don't know about that. Pulling this build off is very easy, like most early aggression, like 3 rax. I'm just a platinum player and I get more or less the same timings as Tang who is high master, 1-2 roaches come a bit later because of my lack of splits and drone micro in the opening, but that's it. It's however very hard for a terran to defend, especially now that the metagame heavily favors early hellions. I completely obliterate my platinum opponents with this, no need to even worry about the transition since they just die to the attack. The terran has to scout it coming and has to react properly. Putting down a haphazard bunker is far from enough to stop it, and tons of platinum terrans actually build more than 4 hellions because they expect bad zergs to let them into their main, which just makes this build even stronger.
So I think it's fine to discuss strengths and weaknesses, but one should definitely not expect it to be a bad build just because an insanely good terran will be able to stop it every time, the vast majority of terrans on the ladder will not be able to stop it every time.
|
On January 13 2012 00:06 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 23:29 djtopa wrote:
You don't have to be a top player to hold this off and then be ahead as terran. The terran who is facing against this build will be a lot worse than MVP, but so is the zerg who is executing it. We can assume that they are on the same skill level, and then it comes down to which build is better I think.
I don't think people are being harsh I think that they point out the weaknesses and strengths which is the point in posting to strategy forums isn't it ? DarkForce has pretty much said the build sucks. Tang responded that it has worked well for him against good players in high master. DarkForce responded that those aren't good players. I'd say that's pretty harsh. So I think it's fine to discuss strengths and weaknesses, but one should definitely not expect it to be a bad build just because an insanely good terran will be able to stop it every time, the vast majority of terrans on the ladder will not be able to stop it every time.
Darkforce has his own opinions about what is and isn't a good strategy, and that's based on his experience at the higher levels. I think even though he said he doesn't like the build, he'll acknowledge that it isn't a bad first step for players looking to improve their aggression/multitasking as zerg. I think it's fine for him to share his views, but his advice may not be the most solid for those looking to improve as he specializes in pro-level thinking, not helping newer players improve.
|
I still don't get what's wrong with the build at a pro level.
I arrived at my variation based on the facts that:
1) Hellions CANNOT fight 7 roaches in a cost-efficient manner.
2) Terran CANNOT apply pressure to me, expand, and adequately root out my roaches from his natural without taking significant losses all at the same time
3) As long as I keep the hellions from getting inside my main, I don't care what they do.
All of these are based on the limitations of the game. When I play poorly and my opponent does well, I still break even. I don't see how a pro is going to micro his way out of the fact that he only has 4 marines, a marauder, and a bunker to defend at that point of the game.
There is no room for micro to be the game-changer.
|
On January 13 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
I still don't get what's wrong with the build at a pro level.
I arrived at my variation based on the facts that:
1) Hellions CANNOT fight 7 roaches in a cost-efficient manner.
2) Terran CANNOT apply pressure to me, expand, and adequately root out my roaches from his natural without taking significant losses all at the same time
3) As long as I keep the hellions from getting inside my main, I don't care what they do.
All of these are based on the limitations of the game. When I play poorly and my opponent does well, I still break even. I don't see how a pro is going to micro his way out of the fact that he only has 4 marines, a marauder, and a bunker to defend at that point of the game.
There is no room for micro to be the game-changer.
Why would Hellions fight Roaches? All they have to do is try to intercept your Lings or stand behind the Bunker (if it's on the low ground), preventing Lings from attacking the bunker while your 8 Roaches will never kill a Bunker being repaired. 8 Roaches = 60 dps on a 350-hps Bunker. Even if you snipe some SCVs, his economy will be better than yours. You don't even know if he went CC35 (i. e. double expand). If it's the case, 3 MULEs will simply laugh at your 24 drones economy (yes, I know you drone after, but you're still on 24 drones for quite some time), regardless of how many SCVs you killed at his natural. If Reactor Hellion => dual expand can hold this while still retaining an advantage, push-oriented follow-ups will have no problem neither. As DarKFoRcE stated, this build is only worth it if your opponent went 1 rax FE / CC first => Reactor Hellion, but most of the time you won't even be able to know if he's going this follow-up anyway.
Sure, this build may work even in Master League, but only because people don't know how to properly react. I mean, I once saw Beastyqt open with a BC rush against a Master League Zerg and still win anyway; what does this prove about the build's viability? Nothing. A good Terran will hold this with minimal defence (really, one Bunker, one Marauder and some SCVs repairing is all you need) while still building SCVs and thus having the advantage. Whether you win or not the game after this is irrelevant; he had the advantage after the opening. Who would purposefully play openings in which you're at a disadvantage if your opponent plays correctly? You shouldn't play with the “Let's hope he messes up his defence” mindset, right? Regardless of the macro transition, this opening is sadly this. For those who play chess, it's like moving your Queen in the first moves hoping for a Scholar's mate against your opponent. Yes, if your opponent plays incorrectly, you may win or get an advantage here, but against someone who knows his openings you will end up with a disadvantage, which means your opening was questionable at best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
