|
On January 22 2012 17:31 lickwidice wrote:
Wren.822 and Khazidhea.
Thank you so much for your time and your replies. I'm going to go play now with that in mind. I'm sure my TVP will be stronger. I found a build that I like way more (1Rax FE), but I do not intend on implenting it until I can perfect this build and get at least a 60% win rate with it until I am out of gold (I'm in bronze now)
Are you doing a naked 1rax, or a 1rax marauder FE? There are distinct advantages/disadvantages to both. I mentioned in my previous post that I do a 1rax marauder FE with concussive. The advantage is that with 2 marauders and a marine + concussive you can take map control away from the protoss player's poking army, and if you catch their stalker/zealot out on the map you can generally kill their units for free. This delays your CC only slightly (I think it's something like 23 CC instead of 20CC) and gets you the safety of having control of the map, and the ability to pressure your opponent a bit while you expand safely instead of having to expand while relying on bunkers to stay safe.
The naked 1rax, or the CC first, is great for players with impeccable macro because you can expand super fast and eke out an economic advantage as early as possible (~17-20 supply), and still remain safe. This requires a lot of scouting and map awareness, however. I am not super comfortable doing it. Perhaps someone with more experience with a naked 1rax can expound upon its virtues and flaws in a more detailed manner. But I'm glad you found he feedback useful. :D
|
On January 22 2012 20:20 Wren.822 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 17:31 lickwidice wrote:
Wren.822 and Khazidhea.
Thank you so much for your time and your replies. I'm going to go play now with that in mind. I'm sure my TVP will be stronger. I found a build that I like way more (1Rax FE), but I do not intend on implenting it until I can perfect this build and get at least a 60% win rate with it until I am out of gold (I'm in bronze now)
Are you doing a naked 1rax, or a 1rax marauder FE? There are distinct advantages/disadvantages to both. I mentioned in my previous post that I do a 1rax marauder FE with concussive. The advantage is that with 2 marauders and a marine + concussive you can take map control away from the protoss player's poking army, and if you catch their stalker/zealot out on the map you can generally kill their units for free. This delays your CC only slightly (I think it's something like 23 CC instead of 20CC) and gets you the safety of having control of the map, and the ability to pressure your opponent a bit while you expand safely instead of having to expand while relying on bunkers to stay safe. The naked 1rax, or the CC first, is great for players with impeccable macro because you can expand super fast and eke out an economic advantage as early as possible (~17-20 supply), and still remain safe. This requires a lot of scouting and map awareness, however. I am not super comfortable doing it. Perhaps someone with more experience with a naked 1rax can expound upon its virtues and flaws in a more detailed manner. But I'm glad you found he feedback useful. :D
Hi,
I was talking about 1 rax (1xMarine) and then quick FE so no marauders.. but I like your idea more because I do struggle against stalkers and without maruaders he is picking off my "free" units across the map. I am still perfecting the 3 rax build but Ideally my standard opening in TvT and TvP will be something like you said, 1 rax marauder FE. I see alot of master players build reapers instead but I find that to be a waste for me right now because I can't micro it like they do and even if I do try to micro it it affects my macro so severely that it throws out my game completely.
I find that the 3 Rax build works well but puts me at a disadvantage if the game lasts longer then 20 minutes but either way it is helping me improve my mechanics / macro / positioning etc. so I'm still going to stick with it. Once again, thanks alot for your input.. I'm sure alot of other players like me will also find value in these posts =)
|
I wish there was a build for zerg like this.
|
Hi Khazidhea,
Thanks for making this guide. I didn't use your guide, but I used the same approach to improve my own skill and focus on core mechanics. Thankfully I have high level friends who were able to guide me through it.
A couple points I'm curious about.
1) Why get concussive shells? I used to get these out of habit but it doesn't really help if you engage at your opponents base. Concussive, to me, helps in two scenarios: a) intensive stutter step micro and b) trapping one-off units when the opponent retreats.
(a) is not something I would encourage a gold or plat level player to do for an early push because most likely their economy will suffer greatly while they are focusing their attention/APM on this. (b) is not a scenario which would come up if you are attacking at their natural, the most likely engagement point.
I think that first putting the resources in to combat shields would be much better. Especially given the 4:1 marine:marauder ratio.
2) I think the general layout of 2 reactor, 1 tech is a good balance but the reactor timing seems tricky to me. Reactors take 50-seconds to build and marines take 25 seconds. So, if you build a reactor, you effectively are building 2 fewer marines. Turn this around, it takes an additional 75 seconds (3 rounds of marine production) after the reactor finishes for it to come out ahead of a naked barracks. In my experience, and in your video, with the reactor timing you show, you end up moving out before this up-swing happens. Here are a couple suggestions for tweaks to the build order that I tried to solve this problem:
(a) Make the reactors when you build the CC. Since you have to stall your army production at this time anyway, it's a good fit for the downtime of your rax's.
(b) Put a reactor on the first rax, TL on second, reactor on 3rd. Move out with stim but without concussive. I expect you will find that you have 4-5 more marines this way. (Bonus for this methid: add shields, concussive and +1 armor for a sweet 2nd timing attack if the first fails)
|
Thanks for making this guide, Khazidhea. I've been playing Zerg in 2n2 and other teamgames from the very beginning of the beta on, and haven't focused on 1n1 yet. I laddereda little bit as zerg, too, and managed to get placed into platinum where i struggle as a zerg player to keep up with my enemies. Now i have tried this build literally having NO idea of 'how to terran', hell, even this production-cycle in the buildings is totally new to me!
And it just kicks ass. Here's my first replay, i later recognized i expanded 'to early'. I haven't analyzed the replay yet cause it's 1:30 am and i'm going to bed now, but my terran opponent really disliked the fact that your build is just huuuuge. 
http://drop.sc/96511
On mah way to diamund!
|
Azira, the marine marauder ratio is not 4:1 as you start producing marauders earlier. Getting techlab first is essential to get stim going early. Reactor first would delay for WAY TOO LONG.
I like the idea of skipping reactors until the push - it is something I would like to test, maybe you are right.Maybe use 3 rax naked rax or something instead. I might update the OP, but cant really change the video.
Concussive shell is arguable, I agree. I clearly mention in the vid that concussive is "kinda optional". But it does help, especially in TvP. In addition, you have to learn how to stutter step at some point and doing this with concussive is easier than without. I wouldnt recommend bronzie to stutter step, but a gold\plat player should start looking into that. Concussive also has this random factor of accidently hitting something like a baneling and giving a few extra seconds to micro marines back. Zealots - usually what would happen you start hitting zealots, they try to attack you, try to retreat an die. If you happen to engage in open field - it would definitely help chase you opponent.
Finally, in the transition section I say how you should go for shields right after concussive. I would always go for +1 weapons first - it is way better to do it in every matchup for terrans. In TvP I would wait for medivacs for a second push and in TvZ and TvT I wait for tanks.
|
Another satisfied customer here,
just startet over after two seasons off.
Practised the Build vs AI, got on Ladder (Bronze) and startet to wreck face.
vs Zerg, the only game i lost so far was because the power to my building went off. They always have much less stuff than me. (i think because learning the inject/larva is kinda hard for bronzies like me.
vs. Protos, the games are closer, but i almost always do enough damage to kill them off with my second push, 5rax bio with 1/1 and medivacs off 2 bases (if i dont slaughter them outright)
the only matchup i struggle is TvT, in most games they survive my first push, after that, it goes to a macro game. And i struggle with my transition (dont like tanks all that much, and bio vs tanks has its problems with bronze apm, I really look forward to HotS in TvT , + I only get cheesed by terran, mostly banshees.
|
Just got promoted to gold league after about 35 games, still really happy with how well this build covers the basics. Starting to run into a few problems now that I'm playing platinums almost 100% of the time. I'm finding that the first push is doing less and less damage as my opponents get better.
Against protoss, I'm completely fine with sticking to the 3rax. It's hard to remember the last time I lost to a toss using this build.
High platinum terrans are starting to beat me. My loses against T usually come when they get siege mode and an expo up right before my attack hits at about 8:00. 3rax still wins me a lot of games, especially when they try to cheese.
Zerg is by far my weakest matchup. Ling bling muta destroys me. I usually only win against an opponent that goes roaches and my first attack still usually does nothing...except force a lot of units. Need to get better at my macro and learn when to attack/not attack.
Should I be moving on to another build, or should I stick with the 3rax and focus on improving my macro/scouting/game sense? I'm quite sure this build can get me a lot farther, but I'm starting to feel like it's not setting me up very well for the mid to late game.
|
>Not really suitable for high levels of play
In my opinion, every type of strategy can be used in upper leagues if they're refined. I can normally get away with 3raxing protoss players all the time.
Also, I suggest getting concussive before stim. Unless you want to push faster and without concussive, getting concussive stops early pokes by stalkers.
|
On January 25 2012 02:33 MrMoist wrote:
>Not really suitable for high levels of play
In my opinion, every type of strategy can be used in upper leagues if they're refined. I can normally get away with 3raxing protoss players all the time.
Also, I suggest getting concussive before stim. Unless you want to push faster and without concussive, getting concussive stops early pokes by stalkers.
Agreed. MMA used essentially the same build to beat IMMVP in the GSL one game. It's a strong timing that has potential build order wins and if you deny scouting then it can be very hard to defend.
|
On January 24 2012 04:03 ReallyBigShark wrote:
Against protoss, I'm completely fine with sticking to the 3rax. It's hard to remember the last time I lost to a toss using this build.
High platinum terrans are starting to beat me. My loses against T usually come when they get siege mode and an expo up right before my attack hits at about 8:00. 3rax still wins me a lot of games, especially when they try to cheese.
Zerg is by far my weakest matchup. Ling bling muta destroys me. I usually only win against an opponent that goes roaches and my first attack still usually does nothing...except force a lot of units. Need to get better at my macro and learn when to attack/not attack.
Same here! I'm playing against gold players (having a really hard time against Zerg) and wonder whether I should use a different BO in TvZ. I thought about Bomber's TvZ-style (Day9:395) but this will/would need some time(a lot^^) and train to use it in the ladder.
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina72 Posts
On January 25 2012 04:50 nic1868 wrote:
Same here! I'm playing against gold players (having a really hard time against Zerg) and wonder whether I should use a different BO in TvZ. I thought about Bomber's TvZ-style (Day9:395) but this will/would need some time(a lot^^) and train to use it in the ladder.
3 Rax is an awesome build to get started with, but I'd say in gold league it's about time to learn the standard midgame and get the general idea of each matchup.
As for TvZ, i honestly reccomend staying away from Bomber's 3OC build which was shown in that daily until you get up to the higher leagues. Not only the build is map dependant, it is also harder to execute than usual cookie cutter builds, and going from 3 rax to 3OC is practically skipping the logical "next chapter in the book". (Dont get me wrong, its quite a useful addition later on when you know what youre doing.)
If you're just getting into gold, IMHO the ideal choice is the old 2 rax FE -> 10minute-ish marine tank stim push which was fairly common before the reactor hellion came into fashion.
The reason i suggest the economical 12/14 2 rax over hellions is because at your levels, not only you might not reap the full benefits of early hellion openings like creep deny and thourough scouting, theres a solid chance you might even be putting yourself behind with losing them to spines, surprise lings or plain macro bumps thanks to babysitting and kiting.
The two rax will give you a decent, easy to execute pressure option in the early game as long as you learn not to overcommit and try to do dmg without taking it.
Back then i used to do something in the lines of:
2 rax > CC > 2 gas > rax > factory > lab on rax > swap, start tank prod.> lab and stim > gas > ebay, later +1 > starport > gas > push with 3,4 tanks and stim nearing completion. (thanks Doc!)
You'll be learning marine tank control, sniping zergs third, when to pull back, adding more production and your 3rd and stuff like that.. just get the build down first.
When you get more comfortable and maybe around plat, its a good time to replace 2 rax with reactor hellion opener.
Good luck!
|
Thank you Batcha!
2 rax FE seems to be the perfect solution for me. I haven't tried the build yet, but it sounds great and fits to my skill level.
I can't wait to use it and hopefully increase my win-ratio in TvZ
|
Better off with the 2 Rax or Tank push aint gonna get nothing done with Stimpack taking so long.
|
I've been trying out some naked 3 rax builds that go like the following:
supply
rax (pump marines nonstop after done)
rax (pump marines nonstop after done)
orbital
supply
rax (pump marines nonstop after done)
supply
supply
CC
double gas
orbital
supply ...
(basically similar to 1rax fe + 2 rax follow up)
i usually have 8+ marines to push at 5 minutes. take 2 scv's with you to buid bunkers as necessary. it does ok damage against an opponent that fast expands. if the opponent is on one base, i make a bunker near the ramp and put a few marines in there, and move the rest back to base. build another bunker in the nat and wall off while the bunker at the opponents natural buys some time to keep the speedlings or stalkers at bay.
it's not the most aggressive build, but keeping your scv's off gas and constantly mining minerals helps you build your CC sooner while keeping a decent sized army knockin on their door
|
First of all, thanks for doing this: by learning and using this build I feel I have improved much over de past weeks, by being low-bronze at first and now ranked 2 in the same league. My matches from the past two weeks have been 35-10 or something like that. However, I have some questions that someone might help me with:
1. How important is it to attack at 7:30 (or something around that)? I sometimes wait until some more units come out, but is that costing me games? And is there an indication about how many units I need with those adjusted buiding times (like 6 marauders and 10 marines)?
2. Sometimes protoss gives me trouble, when they use sentries. One forcefield can block some of the ramps in two-player maps and I find myself having trouble what to do? Should I pay attention to when the forcefield has gone away and attack at that moment, or should I do something else?
I would be glad if someone can help me with this.
|
|
|
@Negius
1) This 3rax build gets you a big army relatively early, but the longer you wait to attack generally the worse the game will go for you. He'll either have expanded before you and got an economic lead, or he'll have developed some high tech units that can defeat your barracks army more easily. For example siege tanks in TvT.
2) Yes a competent Protoss will keep you forcefielded out of his main base. In this case what you want to do is set up a contain, IE set your army at his natural just out of range of his units. That way you delay his expansion while you can expand yourself and sending more units down. You might have to retreat back to your own base at some point but the main thing is to get a lead on having your 2nd base up.
|
In TvP ramp case, run 1 marine up to see how many sentries he has. If its more than 1 dont even try to break it, expand and proceed to macro.
You can attack earlier than 7:30 in TvT and TvZ without concussive shells, it's a personal preference. I wouldnt recommend attacking later than that for the reasons monkeyballs mentioned above.
|
Delaying the attack against terran is also very dangerous due to the increased possiblity of seige tanks. This push into 3 or 4 seige tanks is basically throwing those units away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
