EPTYep, it's all about the banshees, which is why I think he should stick to 1 factory and get 3 starports. Not only do I think banshees are more useful, but it is also a better match to his income, meaning less idle production.
[G] *New* [TvP] Yen's 7-2-2 Build - Page 5
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Yep, it's all about the banshees, which is why I think he should stick to 1 factory and get 3 starports. Not only do I think banshees are more useful, but it is also a better match to his income, meaning less idle production. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Also, I don't think stim is very good for this timing. I think I remember hearing windy on stream saying its a c shield timing. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:28 hersenen wrote: sksyen you didn't answer my question of why siege tanks over thors? I'm really interested.. thors will delay your push by 2 minutes, at which time your opponent will ample time to get an advantage in army supply and a better composition to defend with. Siege tanks are much better for pushing against protoss when you're not maxed, while thors are good for breaking FF contain at their ramp while they are still on 1 base or just putting their expo down, OR when you're maxed out on thor banshee (see asd's game from gsl nov on bel shir against some protoss) they don't trade well unless they're against small numbers or at a critical mass. | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
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Specialist
United States803 Posts
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Jamial
Denmark1289 Posts
On January 02 2012 06:56 Avril_Lavigne wrote: hongunprime is fulltiltpokr?? Is this confirmed I've never heard of this? I beat this guy in ladder! He streams while playing as fulltiltpokr. I would assume that it is then, infact, Hongun... | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On January 02 2012 02:13 Willzzz wrote: It's just very slightly more economical, I often do a 13 rax. 13 rax also allows for smoother timing if you want to depot scout. | ||
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FlubbaSet
Germany7 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 02 2012 22:13 Willzzz wrote: @Blazinghand Yep, it's all about the banshees, which is why I think he should stick to 1 factory and get 3 starports. Not only do I think banshees are more useful, but it is also a better match to his income, meaning less idle production. Well, I think the strength of the build's banshee play is the timing of the early banshee, not the follow-up banshees in the main army. Like, the classic protoss 1 gate FE into 2x Forge gets a delayed robo, and often has only 1 observer on hand and very few stalkers when this fast banshee hits. Protoss only rushes out a robo against a 1-basing terran, not an obviously 1-rax-FEing terran. The surprise is in the risky marine cutting and double gas. The surprise factor of the banshee is good for about a minute, and in that window Yen lays down some serious pain. After that, the banshees are primarily to provide a mobile element, force stalkers, and spot for his tanks. Still a useful battle unit, but his marines and tanks lay down the real hurt. | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Ive had a lot of people say that they odnt want to do a 2 base all in. However, ive had a lot of games where i didnt actually kill the P, or deal game ending damage, then re-pushed a few minutes later. Ive won quite a lot of 30+ min games staying with push after push, killing the 3rd or 4th once sieged up outside their nat. Ive found its all about the banshees aswell. They decimate a base in seconds. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On January 02 2012 06:34 iAmJeffReY wrote: Uhh.. I said you make scvs to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, marine and CC at natural at 16. You're spewing pure theorycraft. I've done it. I've run it. It lands out perfectly with the minerals when you scv to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, and CC at natural at 16. I know for a fact. I don't have BS numbers that I made up. You're the kind of person that needs to get away from these forums. Nothing but stupid non game play facts. Uh, theorycrafting in places such as this is perfectly fine. Also what is up with being all offensive because someone is discussing with you? If you ask me it's people like you that should go away from this forum, if you cannot discuss without getting all offended you are just hurting the discussions. Even more so when you are not even paying attention to what he's actually saying, but instead just getting mad because he's disagreeing with you. What he is saying is that there should be no difference between the 12 and 13 rax in economy, which is true if you perform it optimally and place your barracks at your mineral field there should literary be 0 difference. | ||
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LloydPGM
85 Posts
I created my TL account to answer to this topic ! I have bad tvp and I suck with bio, i'm a huge fan of old bw tvp style with mech, so I always try to use tanks / mech in tvp and I'm constantly looking for alternatives to classical MMM. I tried your build and i really love it. I give my opinion : 1 - Early game : For sure, you are very sensitive to protoss all-in, so you have to scout well if protoss takes fast expand. If not, bunker more and keep some scans to avoid DT. I would veto smallers maps when playing this stratagy cause I suppose players are more tended to cheese on smaller maps. 2 - Banshee : If P fast-exps, banshee is really annoying for protoss. I mean, you're not supposed to KILL a good protoss with one or two banshees, but you can harrass enough to keep protoss at home while you mass marines/tanks. Your 1st banshee comes quiete early, and so as cloak. A good protoss will always send 1 obs in terran's base, so I try to hide my starport as much as possible. When the 1st banshee arrives, with some luck P will have no obs in his base, because banshee is not expected when you see a terran fast exp. Then you can harrass b1 and natural with 2 banshees, that really forces protoss to build obs. You can really take a small advantage like this. 3 - Upgrades : In the game vs Axslav, you get army-trade because of the lack of upgrades. If you harrass well with banshee, the 12-13 min push is deadly but if you can't kill him, then I try to take 3rd base at 17-18 min game and start upgrades marines at least, tanks and banshee at best. Also I think you can go battlecruiser in the late game. 4 - Maps : I really like the mix of tanks/marines and banshee to give vision for tanks. The tank placement is of course very important so this strategy works better on maps where you can hit your opponent's natural with tanks behind a cliff, like Tal Darim or Shakuras. 5 - Protoss' response to this build : As long as i played this build, I think protoss has to go Air. Except stalker, protoss has no really good solution against banshee, and stalker gets killed by tank. Phoenix can lift tank and kill banshee so it's a real good response. But as Terran got 2 starport u can build some vikings to support your air. | ||
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Chrobbus
Iceland195 Posts
 A weakness is definitely an early oracle harrass from protoss which can completely fuck you up. I almost managed to come back after losing 16 workers to said oracles and win the game, but the push was delayed till min 15~ ca. I should've went with a max 200/200 instead in that case since this composition is extremely strong. Dealing with blink stalkers can be a bit tricky as well but I feel that if you tweak the build so you start immediate siege tank production and a little later cloak banshee you will be fine vs it, with 2 well positioned siege tanks (your second one should be about half way through when the stalkers hit).In addition I have been thinking that adding an early engineering bay and 1 turret in each mineral line (just automatically) should be fine, and will cover you vs that oracle harrass so that you take minor damage and you can upgrade +1 for your marines with the eng bay since you have an additional 150 gas & 150 minerals (from not having to research siege upgrade anymore!). But yeah, this push is still as strong as ever | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
On July 01 2013 00:43 Chrobbus wrote: Just wanted to confirm that this build works just as well in HotS A weakness is definitely an early oracle harrass from protoss which can completely fuck you up. I almost managed to come back after losing 16 workers to said oracles and win the game, but the push was delayed till min 15~ ca. I should've went with a max 200/200 instead in that case since this composition is extremely strong. Dealing with blink stalkers can be a bit tricky as well but I feel that if you tweak the build so you start immediate siege tank production and a little later cloak banshee you will be fine vs it, with 2 well positioned siege tanks (your second one should be about half way through when the stalkers hit).In addition I have been thinking that adding an early engineering bay and 1 turret in each mineral line (just automatically) should be fine, and will cover you vs that oracle harrass so that you take minor damage and you can upgrade +1 for your marines with the eng bay since you have an additional 150 gas & 150 minerals (from not having to research siege upgrade anymore!). But yeah, this push is still as strong as ever I would disagree. 1) Mamaship core deters the early banshee harass really well. 2) Because of the threat of widow mine drops, more Protoss are putting cannons at their mineral lines by 7 minutes which means your cloak banshee does nothing. 3) Stargate openings are bad for you because you spend all your resources making things that do not shoot up. 4) 1 base plays by Protoss are more frequent nowadays with the cheaper dark shrine, mamaship core, oracles, etc that can all start from the standard 13 gate 15 double gas build. 5) There are better things to harass with than banshees. The things that defend against widow mine or hellbat drop also defend against banshees. | ||
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Chrobbus
Iceland195 Posts
On July 01 2013 01:21 gobbledydook wrote: I would disagree. 1) Mamaship core deters the early banshee harass really well. 2) Because of the threat of widow mine drops, more Protoss are putting cannons at their mineral lines by 7 minutes which means your cloak banshee does nothing. 3) Stargate openings are bad for you because you spend all your resources making things that do not shoot up. 4) 1 base plays by Protoss are more frequent nowadays with the cheaper dark shrine, mamaship core, oracles, etc that can all start from the standard 13 gate 15 double gas build. 5) There are better things to harass with than banshees. The things that defend against widow mine or hellbat drop also defend against banshees. You can disagree all you want but that does not change the fact that I have been having success with this build in HOTS mid-high masters. And even if protoss has cannons in his mineral lines when your cloakshees hit, you can still take out forges/pylons/cyber core and whatnot if he has no obs. Furthermore you can snipe off sentries (the most crucial unit to get) and further delay his tech since he will need to replace them, 100 gas each, or risk getting run over without any when your force of marines tanks cloakshees+raven hits. You do not _need_ to deal dmg with the banshees, it's just an added bonus. What matters is that you do not lose any banshee at all during your harrass though. | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
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