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Been a while since I posted here. This might help out some of the terrans having trouble in tvp. It's a 2 base timing that is extremely aggressive and should normally steamroll your oppenent if micro'd correctly. It's weaknesses are 1 base all ins but people tend to play more macro games nowadays so here we go:
10 Depot
13 Rax
15 Orb
16 CC
17 Supply
2 Refinery
19 Bunker
21 Factory
Orb on nat
28 Starport / Tech on Fact / Refinery at nat
31 Bunker
*Start cloak banshee production*
33 Factory tech and start seige tank production
As you start the harass with the initial 1-2 banshees, throw down 2 additional rax, tech on first rax and upgrade stim -> combat.
The idea from here is to finish with 7 rax, 2 factories, 2 starports with a timing push around the 11-12 min mark. No real fixed progression - you just simply need to adjust to the situation of the game.
Here's some replays to help visualize:
Vs Hongunprime
http://drop.sc/82372
Vs Incontrol
http://drop.sc/82373
Vs Axlav
http://drop.sc/82374
Vs ClashMercy
http://drop.sc/61517
http://drop.sc/61518
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Whats the timing of the 2nd CC?
Edit.
Oh. oops. Read that as OC.
Thanks
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
13 Rax
15 Orb
16 CC
2 Refinery
Orb on nat
28 Starport / Refinery at nat
By weakness to all ins, do you mean it can hold them all but is more vunerable than normal, or are there build order losses to this? It seems extremely risky.
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is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
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On January 02 2012 01:57 Cyro wrote:By weakness to all ins, do you mean it can hold them all but is more vunerable than normal, or are there build order losses to this? It seems extremely risky.
With the early CC and tech straight into port, you wouldn't have enough marines to defend any well executed all-in, and your tanks will be very late.
Edit: Basically you will get killed by 4-Gate, 3-Gate Void, 3-Gate Blink, or maybe even a strong 3-Gate pressure.
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I think that 12 min timing are the best way to win vs protoss atm... but 1 rax FE into cloak banshee is really cheesy. I assume you can hit about the same timing from a regular cloak banshee expand wich is a lot safer.
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I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran.
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I can't help feeling that you have too much production, your second factory in the first game makes 1 tank total, that could have been skipped to move out faster and ensure constant production from the remaining structures which have a fair bit of downtime. Or perhaps go 7-1-3 as banshees longer build time requires less income to achieve constant production.
Agree with others that a lot of all-in builds will kill you, especially anything that can bypass the bunkers. I can't see this HongUn falling to this a second time.
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On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
It's just very slightly more economical, I often do a 13 rax.
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Thank you so much i can finally start to win TvP again, great build works well
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On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran.
Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them.
In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating.
I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier?
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On January 02 2012 02:21 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran. Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them. In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating. I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier?
This would probably be good for holding off early aggression, but cloak is pretty important for the push if you can snipe off the obs. Very essential in taking out colossus, ht's or sentries.
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On January 02 2012 02:24 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:21 coko wrote:On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran. Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them. In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating. I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier? This would probably be good for holding off early aggression, but cloak is pretty important for the push if you can snipe off the obs. Very essential in taking out colossus, ht's or sentries.
So you can delay it till about 2 minutes before the push perhaps. From the replays, You use two banshees to harass, but after attacking both, if they have obs, retreat and wait. (Though I notice you do try to pick things off with 4 + raven, but I am not sure cloak helps, as they really often produce 3 observers anyway).
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On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier.
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On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier.
How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line.
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On January 02 2012 03:36 blinkblue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier. How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line.
Try it. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 13, you can make a CC at natural at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making rax at 12. It'll be at 17 or 18.
Just a bit faster.
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Basically you get a couple of extra mineral trips and you can rally the 12 SCV straight to the barracks location rather than have to take one off the line.
It's not a big deal, but every little helps! I mean what were you planning to do with that first marine anyway?
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Yes, or if you wanted to go super eco, get CC before orbital.
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EPT
