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15 OC vs 16 OC

Blogs > darthcaesar
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darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 20:30:57
December 31 2011 04:20 GMT
#1
Ever since the patch that nerfed Barracks by increasing their build time by 5, the issue of 15 OC vs 16 OC has been nagging me. For those of you who don't play Terran, let me explain.

Before this patch, the barracks would finish at the exact same time as SCV #15, thus allowing the building of the Orbital Command Right away. There was never any question - 15 OC was the best way to go. And it made the OCD part of me happy because of how perfectly it lined up with the barracks timing.

Now, since the barracks has an additional 5 seconds of build time, the nagging question is - do you stop at 15 SCVs and build the orbital right when the barracks is finished, or do you make a 16th SCV and build an orbital once it is done? The first option is 15 OC, and the second is 16 OC.

With 15 OC, you get faster MULEs, but you have 5 seconds of idle CC time. With 16 OC, your MULEs come out a bit slower, but your CC has constant production. I've been wanting to actually test which is better for a long time, but haven't done so until now.

Every time I watch a Terran stream, one of the biggest things I look for in build orders is whether the Terran does a 15 OC or a 16 OC. There isn't any set standard - I've seen different players do different things. My guess when the patch was first released was that eventually all Terran players will settle on one or the other, so I delayed actually testing it. I always did the 16 OC variation simply because the OCD part of me can't stand the 5 seconds of idle build time on the CC. However, to this day, there is no set standard, which surprises me.

I finally decided to run some tests on which is better to settle my mind.

Here are the results:

[image loading]

The top graph is the total mineral value in the 16 OC build minus the total mineral value in the 15 OC build. The bottom graph is simply the total mineral value of both the 15 OC and 16 OC builds. (The total mineral value is the current number of minerals + the cost of each building + the cost of each SCV, including the one currently in production). The bottom graph shows that the difference is surprisingly tiny. The top graph reveals, however, that the 16 OC build fares slightly better in the long run even though the income from MULEs comes a bit later. With 16 OC, you also get faster full saturation.

So, even though the difference between 15 OC and 16 OC is quite small, 16 OC is the better option and it should become the Terran standard. (Note: there are some cases in which the slightly earlier influx of minerals from MULEs matters, such as an allin).

tl;dr 16 OC is slightly better than 15 OC in terms of longer term economy and it should become standard.

EDIT: I did not run many tests - only 3 per build, so the data is not definite as to the amount of minerals gained. But it is true that the 16 OC is, by some small margin, better than 15 OC in the long run. The earlier MULE from the 15 OC can be used for some sort of allin or a slightly faster 1rax expo. So, in the case of a 1rax expo, 15 OC is probably better. Either way, it'd still be nice to see some standardization.

EDIT 2: I decided to do some follow-up work that is more theoretical - just based on SCV build times and orbital build times and the such. (40 minerals/minute per SCV until 16 SCVS, after that the income is an average of experimental data since it no longer increases linearly, 9th SCV sent out to build and never brought back).

[image loading]

The second graph is based on the first graph. You can see the expected income differences in the first graph and how they translate to being very close total mineral counts in the second graph.

Here is the difference between the two graphs (positive means more minerals in 16 OC, negative means more minerals in 15 OC):

[image loading]

You can see that the first spike shows that the extra 16th SCV is making some more money, and then the mules kick in for the 15 OC but the 16 OC catches back up. The total theoretical difference/advantage is about 9 minerals in favor of 16 OC. Not a very large difference, but there you have it.


****
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
rkffhk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
474 Posts
December 31 2011 04:31 GMT
#2
Can't argue with the numbers.

I'll do 16 OC from now on.
"Did not realize gold was such an important threshold for people, I guess I honestly take it for granted that if people practice / invest enough time into this game then they would make diamond in no time." ~Caihead
jmdf
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada6 Posts
December 31 2011 04:33 GMT
#3
Nice, always wondered what was better.

Thank you, Sir.
We make expansion, then defence it.
JoeSchmoe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2058 Posts
December 31 2011 04:36 GMT
#4
whoa thanks for this! I've always wondered this myself but never actually bothered testing it.
DoX.)
Profile Joined December 2008
Singapore6164 Posts
December 31 2011 04:37 GMT
#5
Thank you, will do 16 from now on
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6260 Posts
December 31 2011 04:37 GMT
#6
Great work!

Can you do more tests?
- How does sending the SCV scout affect the results? Even though both openers will have scouts, my guess is that the SCV scout will affect the 15OC more.
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
December 31 2011 04:38 GMT
#7
how did you test this? might need confirmation cause of possible variances still awesome.
Shalaiyn
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2735 Posts
December 31 2011 04:39 GMT
#8
What about 13 barracks 16 OC?
FreezingAssassin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States455 Posts
December 31 2011 04:48 GMT
#9
This is sweet. Good find
"I love when stupid stuff happens, it makes me look smart" - IdrA
Niazger
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany41 Posts
December 31 2011 04:53 GMT
#10
So basicly what this means is do 15 if you want to all-in (like a 1-1-1 for example) otherwise go for 16 scv. I think 16 scv could also be better when oppening reactor hellion since there seems to be a very small mineral "gap" where you have the 100 gas but not yet 150 minerals therefore delaying your factory by a few seconds. This is obviously very minor stuff but i think it can help your mental game quite a bit if you know your build order is, at least in theory, perfect.
Jonas :)
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States511 Posts
December 31 2011 04:53 GMT
#11
Good that someone did some testing.

What was your methodology of testing? I imagine this was done on the same starting position on the same map over at least a dozen or so tests? Did you do the standard deviation and confidence interval testing? What makes you sure that your data is proof that one is better than the other?
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
December 31 2011 04:54 GMT
#12
Pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing your test.
Kluey
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada1197 Posts
December 31 2011 04:55 GMT
#13
On December 31 2011 13:39 Shalaiyn wrote:
What about 13 barracks 16 OC?


Uh... What about it? You're perfectly timed with 16 OC when going 13 rax.
Donnie_Par
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada72 Posts
December 31 2011 05:01 GMT
#14
On December 31 2011 13:39 Shalaiyn wrote:
What about 13 barracks 16 OC?

why 13 barracks?
(if you are referring to the small amount of time that can be lost between scvs on a 12 rax, if you double up on close patches you can easily manage to keep it going consistent)
darnaldo never end
willy001
Profile Joined March 2011
United States89 Posts
December 31 2011 05:04 GMT
#15
Thank you very much for putting this info out there for us to see. Does this mean that Liquipedia should be edited to say this for a standard opening now?
IamNatural
Profile Joined November 2011
64 Posts
December 31 2011 05:04 GMT
#16
thanks for this, ive been wondering this myself for a long time, I always hated cutting the scv.
darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
December 31 2011 05:05 GMT
#17
On December 31 2011 13:38 nttea wrote:
how did you test this? might need confirmation cause of possible variances still awesome.


I touched SCVs only once - when I did my 3/3 split. Then I just kept the CC rallied on the same spot. I rallied my 9th scv to make a depot, then a rax, then another depot, then back to mining. Other than that, I just made SCVs and let them do whatever - no mineral stacking, etc.
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
December 31 2011 05:25 GMT
#18
On December 31 2011 14:05 darthcaesar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2011 13:38 nttea wrote:
how did you test this? might need confirmation cause of possible variances still awesome.


I touched SCVs only once - when I did my 3/3 split. Then I just kept the CC rallied on the same spot. I rallied my 9th scv to make a depot, then a rax, then another depot, then back to mining. Other than that, I just made SCVs and let them do whatever - no mineral stacking, etc.


Unfortunately, most builds do not work like that until 7 minutes.
Pugget
Profile Joined November 2010
United States212 Posts
December 31 2011 05:42 GMT
#19
Can you talk a bit more about your methodology? Was this over multiple trials? Scouting? Etc... Cheers!
ligand
Profile Joined February 2011
United States53 Posts
December 31 2011 05:50 GMT
#20
Thank you for this! It's obviously not a big difference but a difference nonetheless. I have always done the 16OC variation since the patch and will continue to do so now that I've seen this!
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