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15 OC vs 16 OC - Page 4

Blogs > darthcaesar
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narkissos
Profile Joined December 2011
198 Posts
December 31 2011 14:08 GMT
#61
Thank you Sir
NicoakaD
Profile Joined December 2011
Argentina25 Posts
December 31 2011 15:40 GMT
#62
What league u are? If ur not High master, stop being worried about this kind of stuff and improve your macro.
Follow me in twitter! www.twitter.com/NicoakaD
MangoNinja
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada13 Posts
December 31 2011 15:45 GMT
#63
Thank you for the stats ! was wondering when someone going to do this !
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
December 31 2011 16:13 GMT
#64
thanks for doing the math
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
DoubleRobo
Profile Joined April 2011
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 16:24:36
December 31 2011 16:24 GMT
#65
really well written, thanks for the info. this kind of theory crafting is what will make the early game airtight in years

edit: it gave me a stupid clown face for my smiley, i took it out
all the way
tappi
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland4 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 16:45:47
December 31 2011 16:43 GMT
#66
On January 01 2012 00:40 NicoakaD wrote:
What league u are? If ur not High master, stop being worried about this kind of stuff and improve your macro.


This is a very easily implemented build order fix, anyone of any skill level can improve themselves with this without any training time.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
Kwon
Profile Joined March 2011
Brunei Darussalam41 Posts
December 31 2011 16:45 GMT
#67
I actually did not know you build the OC at 15 before. Always thought it was 16.
darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 16:48:19
December 31 2011 16:46 GMT
#68
On December 31 2011 20:30 Thorzain wrote:
If you do the 15 OC, the extra minerals you get from that tiny bit earlier mule often gets you a faster expansion, which makes up for the lost scv production because you can produce 2 scvs at a time a bit earlier than with 16 OC. From my personal tests 16 OC catches up to 15 OC somewhere in the middle of the 5th minute (around 4:30 +- 10 seconds). So if you plan on expanding earlier than that I would suggest a 15 OC.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


I had only originally considered this in light of adding on rax for an allin, haha, but this is just as true and the faster double SCV production makes another small difference.


On January 01 2012 01:45 Kwon wrote:
I actually did not know you build the OC at 15 before. Always thought it was 16.


Well, it depends on when you build the marine, but most people called it 15 OC afaik. Some people pointed out that the "16 OC" variation is actually 17 OC because of the marine, which is true, but I've heard it called 16 OC most often so I stuck to that.
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
zyce
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States649 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 16:49:15
December 31 2011 16:48 GMT
#69
I don't find this to be conclusive due to the poor build-order choices made immediately after the OC, which throws such statistically marginal differences out the window until a proper test can be done.

(If curious, I'm referring to building rax/2nd depot with the same scv, as well as not optimizing mining)
Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war.
Kwon
Profile Joined March 2011
Brunei Darussalam41 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 17:12:05
December 31 2011 17:10 GMT
#70
On January 01 2012 01:46 darthcaesar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 01 2012 01:45 Kwon wrote:
I actually did not know you build the OC at 15 before. Always thought it was 16.


Well, it depends on when you build the marine, but most people called it 15 OC afaik. Some people pointed out that the "16 OC" variation is actually 17 OC because of the marine, which is true, but I've heard it called 16 OC most often so I stuck to that.


Oh, its like that. Thanks for clearing that up!
llKenZyll
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States853 Posts
December 31 2011 17:24 GMT
#71
On December 31 2011 13:39 Shalaiyn wrote:
What about 13 barracks 16 OC?

No reason not to make a 12 rax because it doesn't cut workers or anything.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
December 31 2011 20:31 GMT
#72
I updated the OP with some more info!
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 23:22:58
December 31 2011 23:21 GMT
#73
On December 31 2011 17:50 Mowr wrote:
Nicely done! Just a thought though on supply timings for various builds. I have to test this but say you go 2rax with reactor after the first marine. Here the second supply depot is built after the second barracks and you just barely don't get supply blocket at 19. With an extra SCV I think you do, but again, this needs testing.


It's unclear unless you do some tests yourself. If you 15 OC, the 16 OC guy gets that extra SCV while the 15 OC guy is offline, but after the 15 OC is done, the 15 OC guy is building an SCV while the 16OC guy's CC is offline. Seems like the two builds will more or less converge. I'll have to test reactor/tech 2 rax, but my intuition says that it's unaffected

On January 01 2012 02:24 Lebzetu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2011 13:39 Shalaiyn wrote:
What about 13 barracks 16 OC?

No reason not to make a 12 rax because it doesn't cut workers or anything.


The SCV building the rax gets an extra trip, so 13 rax should be VERY SLIGHTLY richer. If you played TvP in BW, it's similar to how people wait til 250 min and get gas/rax at the same time. The SCVs mine a few more trips, and you don't need the rax so early anyway so they might as well be an extra 24 or so minerals richer
Trucy Wright is hot
hyperknight
Profile Joined May 2011
294 Posts
January 01 2012 07:11 GMT
#74
Wow! well done man. Looks like OC at 16 is the way to go! Thanks for results =)
"you 6poll?" - aLive to IdrA on NASL Sunday Showmatch, Feb 2012
4Servy
Profile Joined August 2008
Netherlands1542 Posts
January 02 2012 13:30 GMT
#75
I even did 16 oc before the patch lol because you get 1 more scv for gas on tech heavy builds.
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
January 02 2012 17:15 GMT
#76
On December 31 2011 20:30 Thorzain wrote:
If you do the 15 OC, the extra minerals you get from that tiny bit earlier mule often gets you a faster expansion, which makes up for the lost scv production because you can produce 2 scvs at a time a bit earlier than with 16 OC. From my personal tests 16 OC catches up to 15 OC somewhere in the middle of the 5th minute (around 4:30 +- 10 seconds). So if you plan on expanding earlier than that I would suggest a 15 OC.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


If you want to be greedy you can do a 16OC, build one marine, land your expo, supply and start scv/marine production. Bomber does that when he 1rax FE in TvT, it just cuts half a marine if I remember correctly. He scouts after the rax, but anyway scouting in tvt on a map with more than one spot for the opponent, I don't see many good player (0?) doing it atm.
Zest fanboy.
darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
January 03 2012 07:28 GMT
#77
On January 02 2012 22:30 4Servy wrote:
I even did 16 oc before the patch lol because you get 1 more scv for gas on tech heavy builds.


You should only have 3 SCVs on gas, lol. The only thing you'd get pre-patch is an extra SCV on minerals. And that's not worth it because you could instead get faster MULEs. But those times are now in the past. Good times.
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
Psilo
Profile Joined December 2011
United States115 Posts
January 21 2012 04:46 GMT
#78
Thank you so much.
xJaCEx
Profile Joined August 2010
155 Posts
February 05 2012 05:47 GMT
#79
The reason I like the 16 opening is because when you do the delayed orbital your likely to be dealing with scouting issues so all you have to worry about is turning the command center into an orbital when the scv is done. The other way if your scout is getting attacked or a probe is bugging you its possible you'll be even more delayed on upgrading the orbital as you have to watch for when the rax gets done. I just feel 15 opener has more room for errors so I try to avoid it however I find myself sometimes doing it just because I expect to be able to build the oc right away from doing it the old way for so long.

Here's one I'd like to see answered with colorful graphs how much do you gain from taking a slightly delayed gas
I already know from my own recent testing that it's a large amount because of a snowball effect from something that happens so early on. Amazing what keeping 3.5 extra workers on minerals for a few seconds can do for your econ. That to me suggest that the extra minerals in your example could end up making a larger difference then your graphs suggest.
First blood is as good as anything.
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