At one point in your op you say :

"With 15 OC, you get faster MULEs, but you have 5 seconds of idle CC time. With 16 OC, your MULEs come out a bit slower, but your CC has constant production. I've been wanting to actually test which is better for a long time, but haven't done so until now."

You pretty much point it out right there . 5 seconds of idle cc time is the same as having 1 worker not getting minerals for 5 seconds. Which is probably the entire difference between the 2 graphs.

Kid-Fox

Canada400 Posts

December 31 2011 09:04 GMT

#42

kuhuhuhuhuhu....
this makes me feel better for always going 16oc
^__^

Aui_2000

Canada435 Posts

December 31 2011 09:17 GMT

#43

On December 31 2011 17:19 Mip wrote:
*Puts on statistician hat* What methods did you use? Did you get a bot to replicate the results over and over? Did you do the build yourself over and over? Did you do it with and without optimal mining? I see the graphs, but I don't know what information produced the graphs, you didn't say how you got it or why I should trust it to hold up when I do it.

There is more I could say, but I'm not convinced that this debate is well settled based on these graphs with the accompanying explanation. There should be more information describing why your conclusion is valid based on your data gathering methods because I'm not convinced it's thoroughly analyzed. Especially not to the point to say unilaterally that 16OC is the best and should be the standard.

<3 Mip (MS Statistics)

mule = constant income while building scvs = steadily growing

15 oc = cut scvs for earlier mule

16 oc = no scv cut

Therefore, 16 oc gets every scv slightly earlier than 15 oc while catching up on mule income (minus the whatever less energy it gets) immediately. Does that explanation make sense? You don't really even need testing for this one outside of whether 15 oc fits some builds better because they need the first mule trip.

drooL

United Kingdom2108 Posts

December 31 2011 09:22 GMT

#44

Thanks for the research!

Recognizable

Netherlands1552 Posts

December 31 2011 09:25 GMT

#45

Thanks! Will use 16 OC from now on, makes more sense also if you take a sooner gas.

Eben

United States769 Posts

December 31 2011 09:28 GMT

#46

thanks for doing the testing and math, I will switch to 16 OC also. Numbers dont lie

SimKe

Slovenia1 Post

December 31 2011 09:55 GMT

#47

I think going 1 rax expand should also be tested with 15 and 16 OC... I have a feeling that early mule helps you build your CC faster.

InPlainSight

New Zealand40 Posts

December 31 2011 10:13 GMT

#48

Ok I just did some math and while this is only theoretical and worker pathing and junk probably break the math, bascally we can break the situation into 3 time periods where either build has accumulated more money than the other.

Using the start time of the finishing of the 15th SCV, the 16 Orbital will have an economical advantage until t + 40 seconds.
Then from t + 40 to t + 89 seconds the 15 Orbital will be ahead.
From there on however the 16 Orbital will take an economic lead for the rest of the game.

The reason the 16 Orbitals effect takes so long to kick in is that the early mule actually makes up minerals that surpases the gathering of the early 16th scv - which has been mining the entire time - in the 12 seconds before the other orbital is finished. It is not until around the time of the production of the 18th SCV from the 16 Orbital build until the effect of the delay in production actual starts to show.

Note: I counted mule income as 4 x SCV income for sake of these calculations.

DD.Beaver

Netherlands29 Posts

December 31 2011 11:24 GMT

#49

Everyone keeps saying 16 OC, but isnt it technically a 17 OC since the marine starts before the orbital ?

EG.Thorzain

Sweden164 Posts

December 31 2011 11:30 GMT

#50

If you do the 15 OC, the extra minerals you get from that tiny bit earlier mule often gets you a faster expansion, which makes up for the lost scv production because you can produce 2 scvs at a time a bit earlier than with 16 OC. From my personal tests 16 OC catches up to 15 OC somewhere in the middle of the 5th minute (around 4:30 +- 10 seconds). So if you plan on expanding earlier than that I would suggest a 15 OC.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

emart835

United States24 Posts

December 31 2011 11:37 GMT

#51

I supposed ill work the 16 OC into my macro build styles and the 15 into my 1-1-1 vs every protoss

greedyFarmer

United Kingdom21 Posts

December 31 2011 12:41 GMT

#52

Good work, I'm gonna 16OC from now on. Hopefully, in the future, we can use this to tell an early push from a macro based build

iStarKraft

United Kingdom79 Posts

December 31 2011 12:42 GMT

#53

On December 31 2011 20:24 DD.Beaver wrote:
Everyone keeps saying 16 OC, but isnt it technically a 17 OC since the marine starts before the orbital ?

This is the thing I've been wondering! <3333333

Whenever I try testing out getting an OC with or without SCV cut it also means getting the marine before or after your OC, meaning the orbital falls on either 16 or 17 supply.

Unless of course you choose to not build a marine until you have made your OC, which just seems silly, as there is no reason not to.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

December 31 2011 12:43 GMT

#54

Wait, wouldn't it be 17OC if you are making a marine from your barracks before?
Interesting find nonetheless.
Gahhhh someone beat me to it.

PopcornColonel

United States769 Posts

December 31 2011 12:58 GMT

#55

Thank you

It's finally been answered.

Tapppi

Finland70 Posts

December 31 2011 12:58 GMT

#56

Unless u literally play in grandmasters, this difference wont do anything noticeable to your game. Maybe MVP would notice the difference, but a regular player will have some seconds gap eventually in his scv production anyway, and this isnt a big one.

People need to understand this before going gung-ho about how everyone should use 16OC.. And this as stated in comments, is without all the other early game trickery anyways.

Tapppi

vBr

Sweden193 Posts

December 31 2011 13:22 GMT

#57

I'm interested in knowing how 11 rax 15 oc works out for your economy. the timing from rax finishing to oc is pretty spot on and your rax is some 5 sec earlier placed.

Grunknisse

Germany11 Posts

December 31 2011 13:28 GMT

#58

Did you account for the supply that the extra scv takes up? I'm not completely convinced that it's worth it...

Necosarius

Sweden4042 Posts

December 31 2011 13:44 GMT

#59

I've always done 16 OC even pre patch lol ^^

Calasmere

United Kingdom161 Posts

December 31 2011 13:50 GMT

#60

Seems kind of pointless. The same thing was proven for the most efficient time to make overlord/if extractor trick was more efficient, and to this day, some players do the less efficient way anyway, given the change in income is so marginal.

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