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Been a while since I posted here. This might help out some of the terrans having trouble in tvp. It's a 2 base timing that is extremely aggressive and should normally steamroll your oppenent if micro'd correctly. It's weaknesses are 1 base all ins but people tend to play more macro games nowadays so here we go:
10 Depot
13 Rax
15 Orb
16 CC
17 Supply
2 Refinery
19 Bunker
21 Factory
Orb on nat
28 Starport / Tech on Fact / Refinery at nat
31 Bunker
*Start cloak banshee production*
33 Factory tech and start seige tank production
As you start the harass with the initial 1-2 banshees, throw down 2 additional rax, tech on first rax and upgrade stim -> combat.
The idea from here is to finish with 7 rax, 2 factories, 2 starports with a timing push around the 11-12 min mark. No real fixed progression - you just simply need to adjust to the situation of the game.
Here's some replays to help visualize:
Vs Hongunprime
http://drop.sc/82372
Vs Incontrol
http://drop.sc/82373
Vs Axlav
http://drop.sc/82374
Vs ClashMercy
http://drop.sc/61517
http://drop.sc/61518
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Whats the timing of the 2nd CC?
Edit.
Oh. oops. Read that as OC.
Thanks
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United Kingdom20295 Posts
13 Rax
15 Orb
16 CC
2 Refinery
Orb on nat
28 Starport / Refinery at nat
By weakness to all ins, do you mean it can hold them all but is more vunerable than normal, or are there build order losses to this? It seems extremely risky.
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is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
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On January 02 2012 01:57 Cyro wrote:By weakness to all ins, do you mean it can hold them all but is more vunerable than normal, or are there build order losses to this? It seems extremely risky.
With the early CC and tech straight into port, you wouldn't have enough marines to defend any well executed all-in, and your tanks will be very late.
Edit: Basically you will get killed by 4-Gate, 3-Gate Void, 3-Gate Blink, or maybe even a strong 3-Gate pressure.
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I think that 12 min timing are the best way to win vs protoss atm... but 1 rax FE into cloak banshee is really cheesy. I assume you can hit about the same timing from a regular cloak banshee expand wich is a lot safer.
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I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran.
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I can't help feeling that you have too much production, your second factory in the first game makes 1 tank total, that could have been skipped to move out faster and ensure constant production from the remaining structures which have a fair bit of downtime. Or perhaps go 7-1-3 as banshees longer build time requires less income to achieve constant production.
Agree with others that a lot of all-in builds will kill you, especially anything that can bypass the bunkers. I can't see this HongUn falling to this a second time.
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On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
It's just very slightly more economical, I often do a 13 rax.
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Thank you so much i can finally start to win TvP again, great build works well
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On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran.
Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them.
In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating.
I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier?
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On January 02 2012 02:21 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran. Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them. In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating. I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier?
This would probably be good for holding off early aggression, but cloak is pretty important for the push if you can snipe off the obs. Very essential in taking out colossus, ht's or sentries.
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On January 02 2012 02:24 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:21 coko wrote:On January 02 2012 02:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I was actually discussing this build with our player (Mercy) yesterday.
It's essentially just a 1/1/1 off two bases, with an excess of marines. This build is very very vulnerable to Robotics builds in general, which are pretty common against Terran. Watching the replays, only Axlav makes real use of his robo, rather than rushing to the templar. I think taking out the Robotics is hugely important, and what lost him the game against your push was the placement of his 2 Robotics after you destroyed the first one, you could siege them. In the battles, he seemed to be destroying you, and importantly you couldn't get your third up without retreating. I lose to Robotic builds, but can beat the others (diamond level) playing more standard and less all - in. But I think this is worth looking into. Have you played with removing the cloak, and going for a fast second factory/4th refinery to hit earlier? This would probably be good for holding off early aggression, but cloak is pretty important for the push if you can snipe off the obs. Very essential in taking out colossus, ht's or sentries.
So you can delay it till about 2 minutes before the push perhaps. From the replays, You use two banshees to harass, but after attacking both, if they have obs, retreat and wait. (Though I notice you do try to pick things off with 4 + raven, but I am not sure cloak helps, as they really often produce 3 observers anyway).
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On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw.
I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier.
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On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier.
How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line.
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On January 02 2012 03:36 blinkblue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier. How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line.
Try it. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 13, you can make a CC at natural at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making rax at 12. It'll be at 17 or 18.
Just a bit faster.
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Basically you get a couple of extra mineral trips and you can rally the 12 SCV straight to the barracks location rather than have to take one off the line.
It's not a big deal, but every little helps! I mean what were you planning to do with that first marine anyway?
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Yes, or if you wanted to go super eco, get CC before orbital.
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I like this build thank you for sharing it, it really is good for a eco game. TvP was my worse matchup anyway 
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13 16 makes no sense if you're 1rax fe-ing
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What's wrong with 13 16?
Would you prefer to be really cheeky and go 14 rax? or even 14 CC?
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you get a slower expansion with 16 oc than with 15 oc
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On January 02 2012 04:18 Klyberess wrote:
you get a slower expansion with 16 oc than with 15 oc
He does exactly that for that reason. He cuts scvs at 15. You rax at 13. Cut at 15. OC at 15, make a marine, and start CC at natural.
You guys need to read or watch a fucking replay before commenting because you're all saying very, very stupid things. You're asking about a minuet difference in a rax timing, and coming up with 'Oh well isn't 13 rax 16 OC better'
Try it for yourself before talking. You aren't weaker to a rush, it just lines up better with the expo at natural along with the OC timing in your main. And, infact, when 2nd CC is done, you have just enough for an OC there.
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@Klyberess
That is why I suggested 13 rax 16 cc.
But even with 16 oc while the expansion is slightly slower, the economy is very slightly better. Most people prefer to get their marine out quicker to chase the probe away rather than get the tiny economical boost.
If you are going to do 13 rax you might as well delay your OC and get CC before orbital, then the eco boost is actually worthwhile.
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I like 11 rax 14 oc myself, but i'm probably in the minority.  and it is obviously less economical.
sorry, might have misread cc for oc.
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On January 02 2012 01:47 sksyen wrote:Been a while since I posted here. This might help out some of the terrans having trouble in tvp. It's a 2 base timing that is extremely aggressive and should normally steamroll your oppenent if micro'd correctly. It's weaknesses are 1 base all ins but people tend to play more macro games nowadays so here we go: 10 Depot 13 Rax 15 Orb 16 CC 17 Supply 2 Refinery 19 Bunker 21 Factory Orb on nat 28 Starport / Tech on Fact / Refinery at nat 31 Bunker *Start cloak banshee production* 33 Factory tech and start seige tank production As you start the harass with the initial 1-2 banshees, throw down 2 additional rax, tech on first rax and upgrade stim -> combat. The idea from here is to finish with 7 rax, 2 factories, 2 starports with a timing push around the 11-12 min mark. No real fixed progression - you just simply need to adjust to the situation of the game. Here's some replays to help visualize: Vs Hongunprime http://drop.sc/82372Vs Incontrol http://drop.sc/82373Vs Axlav http://drop.sc/82374Vs ClashMercy http://drop.sc/61517http://drop.sc/61518
Oh ho ho... i like it. Iv been trying fast 3rc Orbitals for a 3 base timings but im always missing my window as my play is not consistent enough. But i dont want to just 1/1/1 This seems like the perfect compromise. Early harass with banshees into 2 base.
Correct me if im wrong but it sound a bit like the 2 base 1/1/1 iv heard about (i dont watch much other than ZvX so im pretty ignorant on the TvP/PvT metagame).
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if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1?
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Well from the replays all i can see is that you do eco damage with cloak banshees and go in for the killing blow with a huge marine tank banshee raven army
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On January 02 2012 03:40 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 03:36 blinkblue wrote:On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier. How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line. Try it. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 13, you can make a CC at natural at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making rax at 12. It'll be at 17 or 18.Just a bit faster.
Tried this. You're kind of trying to misrepresent the results here.
By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 12, you can make a CC at nautral at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making a rax at 13. It'll be at 17 or 18. <-- This is also true as making the rax on 12 or 13 has ultimately zero effect; it's the cutting scvs at 15 that gets you the natural CC faster.
Even by logic it should be clear; there is going to be a scv that's building a rax and not mining for 65 seconds, whether you choose to make that rax at 12 or 13 is irrelevant. The only difference here is that by making the scv on 13 instead of 12, you get a little more minerals before the rax finishes and the scv returns mining, but total income is evened out as soon as that scv returns mining and mines a few times.
But it's still advantageous to make the rax on 12; proxy gates anyone?
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How on earth dd this get into 12 vs 13 rax. Can we please leave it be? Thats not relevant this thread.
More importantly, are there any replays of you losing with this (when you think you did okay) besides 1 base allins?
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On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1?
Wouldn't a 15 nex be the perfect way to beat a 1-1-1-build?
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On January 02 2012 06:07 Whalecore wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? Wouldn't a 15 nex be the perfect way to beat a 1-1-1-build?
no.
OT, how do u handle 5gate. 2 bunkers with crap rines in em isnt enough usually.
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On January 02 2012 05:54 HardMacro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 03:40 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 03:36 blinkblue wrote:On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier. How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line. Try it. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 13, you can make a CC at natural at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making rax at 12. It'll be at 17 or 18.Just a bit faster. Tried this. You're kind of trying to misrepresent the results here. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 12, you can make a CC at nautral at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making a rax at 13. It'll be at 17 or 18. <-- This is also true as making the rax on 12 or 13 has ultimately zero effect; it's the cutting scvs at 15 that gets you the natural CC faster. Even by logic it should be clear; there is going to be a scv that's building a rax and not mining for 65 seconds, whether you choose to make that rax at 12 or 13 is irrelevant. The only difference here is that by making the scv on 13 instead of 12, you get a little more minerals before the rax finishes and the scv returns mining, but total income is evened out as soon as that scv returns mining and mines a few times. But it's still advantageous to make the rax on 12; proxy gates anyone?
Uhh.. I said you make scvs to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, marine and CC at natural at 16. You're spewing pure theorycraft. I've done it. I've run it. It lands out perfectly with the minerals when you scv to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, and CC at natural at 16. I know for a fact. I don't have BS numbers that I made up. You're the kind of person that needs to get away from these forums. Nothing but stupid non game play facts.
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On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1?
If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro.
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On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro.
can you explain why please so we can understand the build and the strategy that goes with it?
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hongunprime is fulltiltpokr?? Is this confirmed I've never heard of this? I beat this guy in ladder!
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That's what Sterling said on his stream, so I assume so.
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On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro.
what
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On January 02 2012 02:07 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 01:57 Cyro wrote:
13 Rax
15 Orb
16 CC
2 Refinery
Orb on nat
28 Starport / Refinery at nat
By weakness to all ins, do you mean it can hold them all but is more vunerable than normal, or are there build order losses to this? It seems extremely risky. With the early CC and tech straight into port, you wouldn't have enough marines to defend any well executed all-in, and your tanks will be very late. Edit: Basically you will get killed by 4-Gate, 3-Gate Void, 3-Gate Blink, or maybe even a strong 3-Gate pressure.
4 gate on 1 gas you can hold I think, but you should lose to anything else. However after looking the replays and comparing them with a standard bio FE this looks like an extremely strong 2 base all in and it also looks like an auto-win against any 2 base all in protoss does.
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On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro.
Macro against the most macro oriented build a P can do, and auto win? Um sure. Whatever dude.
I personally just marine scvs all in every single 15 nexus i see. Works amazingly in diamond, and in GSL wtc from what ive seen. Only on huuge maps is 15 nexus viable. And i veto taldrim.
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haha, I watched the games v Axslav, iNcontroL, and HonhunPrime; but I saw them before this thread, I was just looking through the GM section of Drop.sc and saw those three players get beat by the same build, thinking, man this looks scary strong O_O.
Also damn you for making a double 1-1-1 
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On January 02 2012 07:18 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro. Macro against the most macro oriented build a P can do, and auto win? Um sure. Whatever dude. I personally just marine scvs all in every single 15 nexus i see. Works amazingly in diamond, and in GSL wtc from what ive seen. Only on huuge maps is 15 nexus viable. And i veto taldrim.
?
You do realize he's the one that posted the build and the one that's currently in GM right? Oh nvm, I'm sure whatever works in diamond applies here too. 15 nexus is viable on many ladder and tourney maps, some med sized, wouldn't call shak or antiga huuge...
Thanks for the guide, used to watch your stream after release and then you seemed to go inactive for a while =(, I was happy to see you playing again and now this guide too  Seems pretty similar to a 2 base tech timing that PuMa and Beastyqt use I'll be sure to check this out.
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On January 02 2012 07:36 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 07:18 Squigly wrote:On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro. Macro against the most macro oriented build a P can do, and auto win? Um sure. Whatever dude. I personally just marine scvs all in every single 15 nexus i see. Works amazingly in diamond, and in GSL wtc from what ive seen. Only on huuge maps is 15 nexus viable. And i veto taldrim. ? You do realize he's the one that posted the build and the one that's currently in GM right? Oh nvm, I'm sure whatever works in diamond applies here too. 15 nexus is viable on many ladder and tourney maps, some med sized, wouldn't call shak or antiga huuge... Thanks for the guide, used to watch your stream after release and then you seemed to go inactive for a while =(, I was happy to see you playing again and now this guide too Seems pretty similar to a 2 base tech timing that PuMa and Beastyqt use I'll be sure to check this out.
Wow first off, no need to be hostile. Secondly get off your high horse.
Also i dont think 15 nexus is not viable on most ladder maps that i know off (and dont veto). Try 15 nexusing on antiga and tell me how it goes.
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That pretty much sums it up Squigly. Idea behind this build was to create a variation of puma's 1-1-1 but off 2 base instead. If you micro/m acro correctly, a toss that 15 FE shouldnt be able to hold it. I have had trouble against phoenix openings, but it can be held off if you react accordingly. I also build CC in the open to try to induce toss into taking his nat , no point in hiding the CC. Yes this build can be hard countered by 1 b all ins but for people that play tournies and end up in a bo3/bo5+ scenario, its good to have a build like this in your arsenal.
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On January 02 2012 07:53 sksyen wrote:
That pretty much sums it up Squigly. Idea behind this build was to create a variation of puma's 1-1-1 but off 2 base instead. If you micro/m acro correctly, a toss that 15 FE shouldnt be able to hold it. I have had trouble against phoenix openings, but it can be held off if you react accordingly. I also build CC in the open to try to induce toss into taking his nat , no point in hiding the CC. Yes this build can be hard countered by 1 b all ins but for people that play tournies and end up in a bo3/bo5+ scenario, its good to have a build like this in your arsenal.
Agreed, however I don't believe this hardcounters a 15 nexus, there is no reason to suggest it does. It hits way after the eco off a 15 nexus already has kicked in. But if he 15 nexus and you scout it early enough instead of throwing down a CC you can just throw down 4 extra rax and win that way. They will have 1 stalker when you arrive at their base and you can just kill the pylons powering the gateways. Never lost a game that way ^^
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You're basically saying that your build autowins against anything that isn't one base agression ?
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On January 02 2012 06:19 gogogadgetflow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 06:07 Whalecore wrote:On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? Wouldn't a 15 nex be the perfect way to beat a 1-1-1-build? no.
Afaik 1 gate expo or nexus before gate was the best response to 111, so I'm a bit confused...
About 15 nexus, so what you mean is that basically this wins any build that macros against it(assuming good micro from both)? + Show Spoiler +Guess this is the reason I've been seeing this/similar builds allover the place from pros TvP...
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Im also confused by this. Sure 15 nexus is the best possible build for a P to do if they want to macro. So for a 15 nexus not to hold, surely macro cant hold.
I have to say im dubious on that.
however great guide, i look forward to using.
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On January 02 2012 07:47 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 07:36 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 07:18 Squigly wrote:On January 02 2012 06:50 sksyen wrote:On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? If you scout 15 nex it should be gg. sit tight and macro. Macro against the most macro oriented build a P can do, and auto win? Um sure. Whatever dude. I personally just marine scvs all in every single 15 nexus i see. Works amazingly in diamond, and in GSL wtc from what ive seen. Only on huuge maps is 15 nexus viable. And i veto taldrim. ? You do realize he's the one that posted the build and the one that's currently in GM right? Oh nvm, I'm sure whatever works in diamond applies here too. 15 nexus is viable on many ladder and tourney maps, some med sized, wouldn't call shak or antiga huuge... Thanks for the guide, used to watch your stream after release and then you seemed to go inactive for a while =(, I was happy to see you playing again and now this guide too Seems pretty similar to a 2 base tech timing that PuMa and Beastyqt use I'll be sure to check this out. Wow first off, no need to be hostile. Secondly get off your high horse. Also i dont think 15 nexus is not viable on most ladder maps that i know off (and dont veto). Try 15 nexusing on antiga and tell me how it goes.
There's no need for you to be demeaning to the OP either, wtf is this: "Um sure. Whatever dude."
I regularly nexus first on Antiga, especially the MLG version with forced cross, and in fact I've seen it used PvT in the GSL last season, AND in the up and downs. It's very hard to punish as you'll generally not scout it until a point at which you're faced with the decision to either cancel your cc and build 3 rax or keep on par with him in a macro game. At which point any allin attempt will be delayed enough for the Protoss to have 1 more round of units and will defend if he micros half decently.
I don't understand where you're coming from and I don't understand how you fail to see the condescension in your first post lol
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 02 2012 08:07 Geiko wrote:
You're basically saying that your build autowins against anything that isn't one base agression ?
I'm having trouble understanding this too. I don't see how it auto wins against a macro build after the expo kicks in. You would expect the issues to come right as the nexus goes down, not 10 minutes later :/
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On January 02 2012 09:16 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 08:07 Geiko wrote:
You're basically saying that your build autowins against anything that isn't one base agression ? I'm having trouble understanding this too. I don't see how it auto wins against a macro build after the expo kicks in. You would expect the issues to come right as the nexus goes down, not 10 minutes later :/
I'm pretty sure the point is that it isn't behind and will infact beat most 15 nexus follow-ups that aren't ready for the timing push since this build cuts a lot more corners than those and hence be stronger when the push timing rolls around. It pays for this by just dying to anything 1base.
That this will auto win against any 15 nex I've got a really hard time believing and on top of that it'd take massive amounts of testing to prove. You may on the other hand have to cut some corners as well to defend it even after a successful 15 nex just like this build cuts corners.
It's like the invincible 1-1-1 that suddenly turned out to not be invincible (and no immortal range being increased by 1 doesn't kill a build, it just doesn't punish worse positioning as much.)
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He's just trying to make out that marine/tank/banshee is an unbeatable unit combo. It's not of course, but it is a combo that can be used to force the issue if the protoss has not prepared a large enough army.
Basically the whole build is designed to build a very large army at a point in time where protoss are usually spending a lot of money on upgrades and economy and thus cannot defend adequately. And unlike a regular terran army this cannot be deflected by the use of forcefields.
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Ah so the point is that most macro builds will lose to this is unprepared. While 15 nexus may be the best macro build, it will still lose if unprepared for this particular push.
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Guys, guys guys. Obviously no build is an autowin, the better you utilize it, the better you will perform however. It's not invincible, just a new way to play.
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Guys, when he says "it should be gg," what he means is "it should be gg if you execute properly." He's clearly done the build a lot against all sorts of openings and by now is confident in his ability to close out games with it. Don't expect to trash 15 nex builds the first time you try it, but expect that you will have his level of confidence after a hundred trials with it (or whatever it takes you).
We all felt the same way about 1-1-1 at a certain point (I actually still do. nobody beats my 1-1-1 on ladder, i mean NOBODY, and that comes from more hours of 1-1-1'ing than I care to admit)
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Why marine/tank/banshee/raven and not marine/thor/banshee/raven?
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On January 02 2012 09:45 Ghostfoot wrote:
Guys, guys guys. Obviously no build is an autowin, the better you utilize it, the better you will perform however. It's not invincible, just a new way to play.
Thank you, I guess this is the point I was trying to get across... if you micro and macro well going into the 11-12 min mark, you have a high chance of winning the game.
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On January 02 2012 10:39 sksyen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 09:45 Ghostfoot wrote:
Guys, guys guys. Obviously no build is an autowin, the better you utilize it, the better you will perform however. It's not invincible, just a new way to play. Thank you, I guess this is the point I was trying to get across... if you micro and macro well going into the 11-12 min mark, you have a high chance of winning the game.
You should probably write a bit about followups to the push in the OP if you really want to get this point across.
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Show some replays of you losing? Nice build but showing no losses is both a little self-promoting and biased. Nobody learns from games where you just roll people that don't respond properly.
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shoulda posted this before we played our grudge match X_X
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I used to do this build with cloak and then going 2 base, the thing that stopped me was when I played on the Korean server I got 1 based and the most popular, VR All in crushes this so bad, because it hits quite early, so I stopped using this. But on the American server, it is much more macro oriented so I see it working for a bit.
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hey everyone let's name all our builds with only numbers because it sounds cool.
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I'm a bit disappointed by the content in the OP. When I read [G] I normally expect a guide, not a quick build order opening followed by a single paragraph of explanation.
-edit-
I concede that the strat is good, and I've used it a few times, although I don't get 2 factories... doesn't make much sense to me.
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On January 02 2012 08:11 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 06:19 gogogadgetflow wrote:On January 02 2012 06:07 Whalecore wrote:On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1? Wouldn't a 15 nex be the perfect way to beat a 1-1-1-build? no. Afaik 1 gate expo or nexus before gate was the best response to 111, so I'm a bit confused... About 15 nexus, so what you mean is that basically this wins any build that macros against it(assuming good micro from both)? + Show Spoiler +Guess this is the reason I've been seeing this/similar builds allover the place from pros TvP...
His build doesn't deviate when he scouts a 15 nexus. It's not like you have to commit to this build after scouting a nexus first, he can still throw down a few rax and marine/scv allin and win that way.
Edit: Looks like something MVP did vs MC and Oz, 2 base 1-1-1. (except this is 7-2-2 ><")
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instead of guessing what the op meant maybe the op could just say what he meant.
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On January 02 2012 12:31 GleaM wrote:
Show some replays of you losing? Nice build but showing no losses is both a little self-promoting and biased. Nobody learns from games where you just roll people that don't respond properly.
Games I lose to are ones where I get 4gated, dt rushed, or voidray,essentially 1b play. not much to show there. The build is pretty straight forward if you still cant understand(which obviously you fail at) - you macro to where 2 bases are running with 16 scvs each and move out with continuous rally around the 11 min mark - its pretty 'allinish' if you want to call it that, either works or it doesnt like a 6gate. This is how every game has ended as long as you get to that point although there are certain spots where you can transition to 3rd. just react accordingly is what i always say.
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On January 02 2012 13:56 spbelky wrote:
I'm a bit disappointed by the content in the OP. When I read [G] I normally expect a guide, not a quick build order opening followed by a single paragraph of explanation.
-edit-
I concede that the strat is good, and I've used it a few times, although I don't get 2 factories... doesn't make much sense to me.
No one really cooks one recipe the same way. I would like to think that the TL community is smart enough to understand the gist of a strategy presented and to take it and to apply it in sync with their own playstyle. I dont give step by step guides, I give foundations for others to build on.
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Why so much criticism? If you can't understand the point of this build, maybe you should be looking at more basic strategy guides? Geez.
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It might be useful to actually write more than just the build order...
I have no idea how you will ever hold off early pushes, what your logic behind the build is etc...
Ofcourse it is good vs macro toss because while the toss plays safe and solid you play greedy and gimmicky. If i go triple nex and dont get punished ill be ahead too. Is this really worth taking bo loss vs any all-in?
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I think his gameplan is to just say "gg" if toss does any 1 base all-in.
This entire build is a gamble that protoss will follow the standard macro build and not scout that he is extremely weak for much of the early game or that there is a 2 base all-in coming.
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If you scout one base play, which it's pretty easy to do, just don't go with this? Once you hold the one base play it should be pretty much your game. Toss doesn't really hide 15 nex or 1gate FE, or at least they shouldn't be able to if you scout decently. But if he doesn't, you're already going 1rax fe by the time you scout it, and so you can just go up to 4rax and be in good shape (I just always get 4 vs one base play, 3 otherwise). Not to say Toss one base play sucks, but like any timing attack, if you scout it and react you should be ok. Get a turret by about 7 min if you have no idea what he's going, and I'd just spend your 2nd scan from your expo to get a better idea. This guide details early scouting and what to expect from it.
Thanks for the build Yen, miss your stream! I really like any build that has cloak banshees vs toss, because so many Toss I play skip obs for huge gateway timings or chargelot/archon with no robo.
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Have you used this against the HuK 20 nexus? That build will deliver 5 stalkers to your door at the same timing as a 4gate...your opener seems extremely skimpy on defense (as everyone has pointed out), but the 20-nex will allow the protoss to macro behind his 5 stalker poke, which will likely derail you pretty badly.
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I have to respect the OP on his skill, and on how effective the BO looks as a 2 base all-in. I think it would be great if more high level players shared their BOs on TL.
That being said, this is nowhere near the TL standards of what a guide should be. The OP is basically just a BO, a line saying when to attack, and replays.
To be constructive, I'd like to know for example :
-what counters it (appart from 1 base play)
-details in execution (scouting, any tweeks or adjustement based on what your opponent is doing)
-army positionning and micro during engagements (which units are important etc...)
-why 7-2-2 and not 6-2-1 or something else. What is the reasoning behind that particular building number.
Basically your OP is lacking content even though it seems like it's a fairly good 2 base all-in. And your are not helping when you answer "lol it's gg against 15 nexus" when a blue poster is asking you for details on the build.
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sksyen you didn't answer my question of why siege tanks over thors? I'm really interested..
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Beastyqt just tried this or something very similar on his stream and got stomped.
That's Europe for you
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
So, from what I can tell, the build is something like this:
expand very aggressively with a single barracks and minimal defense, and hope you don't get attacked by a 1-basing protoss
then, double gas and rush banshee asap. The cloak banshee should hit fairly quickly and against a double forge protoss you should get in some decent damage.
From this point forwards, assert map control with your banshees and try to scout what he's doing. In most replays, Yen comes out of the banshee harass, 20-30 food ahead, due to his constant unit production, and the pretty large amount of damage unexpected banshees can do.
This build interests me and is a relative of a build I do (in some aspects), so I thought I'd break down a few replays. This is kind of what you need to do in the OP, btw man. Like, seriously. I literally had no idea what was going on until I'd watched several of your replays.
HongunPrime AKA FulltiltPokr: double forge disrupted.
+ Show Spoiler +In the game against FullTiltPokr, Yen's banshee flies into FTP's main at 8:57 with 85 energy. FTP has one observer halfway cross the map and another 20 seconds in the hole. He's got 1 out-of-position stalker and 1 sentry with which to try to put out this fire. Both players are at 65 food. Yen controls this banshee expertly, getting 4 probes and a sentry. As it exits the main, the other enters the nat. The second banshee kills 4 probes and cancels a cannon, taking no damage.
Rather crucially, this harass delays FTP's TC-- his forges are idle. He's burning robo time on more observers, and his chrono has built up to enormous levels on both nexii. Both of his forges idle for about a minute at 10:45 while his TC completes. He then gets supply blocked at 76 food. By the time he recovers from this supply block, he's now 30-40 food (depending on where in the production cycle you are) behind Yen. His 2/2 is on the way, but it has crucially been delayed by a minute due to the banshee harass. As Yen pushes out, FTP chronos his forges furiously, but he's sitting at 95 food against 141-- both of them at about the same worker count. As the fight begins at 13:00 it's already over, with FTP's 2/2 crucially 60 seconds away. The game is already over, with Yen's 40-50 food lead.
Vs. Incontrol: Dat harass
+ Show Spoiler +
IF we take a look at the game against Incontrol, a similar pattern emerges-- protoss sees a fast expand and the robo is delayed. Yen goes with the usual "delayed marines, quick double gas" FE, and comes in with a banshee. His banshee has a minor altercation with a stalker in the open field- Incontrol knows its coming. The stalker enes into his base at 8:53 and both players are at 62 food. Incontrol is up a few probes, but Yen has mules. Looks pretty normal. This time our banshero is at half strength, wounded by the battle with the stalker.
However, Incontrol has no obs on the way-- due to his delayed robo, he has to build a cannon in each mineral line. The banshee fearlessly picks off a probe and 3 sentries, bringing its kill count to 5 and its resource kill count to 325 minerals, 350 gas, making it a very successful banshee.
As the banshee lives Incontrol's base, Yen is up 7 food and is looking for a comfortable transition into the midgame. This story does not end here, however... at 10:05 banshee #2 enters Incontrol's main. The food count is 77-68 in favor of Yen.
Incontrol does little for about 15 seconds before commanding his units to attack the banshee. He sort of hangs out in his base during this time. I think he got distracted by something out-of-game, or he was busy doing whatever Incontrol does (usually gettin mad bank and doing his thang by running mad game, but that's just one man's opinion). Whatever the case is, the banshee exits his base at 10:49 with 7 probe kills and Yen is sitting solidly 23 food ahead on Incontrol-- 12 of which can be accounted for by banshee kills, and the remainder of which is probably due to lost income due to dead probes, incontrol's 2 cannons, and his additional tech investments.
Yen cuts workers at 46 and stewards his 23 food lead into a 34 food lead without any additional interaction between his army and incontrol's-- again likely due to the fact that he didn't lose any workers and had mules. The fight begins at 142 vs 108 food, with all of that advantage in army size.
So what does this mean?
Well Yen controls his units well, has solid macro, and does a good banshee harass build that hits at a time when double forge is vulnerable, especially if it's disrupted.
I think the real thing to look for here, the real nugget of wisdom, though, is the game vs Axlav:
Axlav makes his stand
I think the real sotry here is the game against Axlav. The most notable things about this game are:
1) Axlav goes Nexus First
2) this is on Antiga Shipyard, with an anti-spinward spawn, making banshee harass very favorable
3) Axlav wins the initial banshee harass.
Axlav uses a Zealot rather than a stalker as a front-checking unit, leaving him an extra stalker as a firefighter at home-- and when Yen's banshee shows up, he has to back off until cloak finishes, netting a few probe kills. He re-enters the protoss base at 8:50 with cloak. However, unlike every other protoss player, Axlav has a 2nd observer ready to go.
This is the only game in which Yen loses a harassing banshee.
Axlav's extra observer gets a full scout of the prod facs off, and axlav begins colossus production.
Here Yen uses a raven aggressively to PDD+banshee harass the main, picking off some probes and a stalker and losing nothing.
The real party starts at 12:30 when yen decides to manhandle down axlav's cannon with a force of 6 banshees and a raven, just as axlav's colossus attack was halfway between their bases. Without blink and his army hopelessly out of position, axlav can't save his robotics facility. After donating a few stalkers and a colossus, he also bleeds his robotics support bay, but not before picking off a few banshees.
This harass brutalizes Axlav's army. he's crucially down to 2 colossi and doesn't have the tech to rebuild them. Yen's thoughtful harass has given him the edge he needs for a frontal attack. at 14:00, he begins his assault and he's up 30 food. This time, though, he's not fighting the usual 1/1 gateway units with a few feedbacsk or archons-- Axlav has 2/2 and he has colossi. In another world, he'd have 3 colossi instead of 2-- bringing colossi to defend the banshees was an unforced error earlier.
Banshees are excellent against colossi, but Yen can't siege up as close as he'd like to due to the large threat range of the colossus. He makes an unfavorable trade in order to lower that colossus count, knowing Axlav still can't rebuild them. Still, he was forced to fight outside the umbrella of his tanks. He also takes some time to knck out the Artosis pylon supporting both of Axlav's Robos and one of his 6 gateways.
There are several minor skirmishes between blink stalkers and banshees.
Without active robos, and his charge far from complete (And 3/3 further still), Axlav is in a tight spot. He slaps down an additional (4th so far! LOL) robo and accepts the loss of his third. without a large colossus count to thwart him, Yen leapfrogs his tanks forward. Axlav engages to get the tanks away from his ramp, sniping Yen's spotters. Yen scans. Axlav slightly overextends, and at the end of the enagement is down 12 food at 15:50.
Yen tightens the noose and goes for a third. Axlav's 3/3 is almost done. He's having trouble securing a rally from his robo to his army, though, due to aggressive banshee control from Yen. He can't get up a critical colossus mass. AT 18:00 he decides to break out, and fails.
He blinks out of his base to Yen's third and snipes it. Yen sees his opportunity and sprints into Axlav's base. Axlav is forced to engage with half of his army, and at 21:00 with both players on 2 bases Yen ALMOST emerges as the victor, but careful control of 3/3 stalkers keeps axlav from leaving the game. Yen's large standing army eventually wins out in the remaining time, as well as the good old terran trick: flying an existing base to a new base :D
Overall, this game had errors on both sides, but showed what I think was a good response to this sort of play-- aggressively making colossi and using them to prevent the tanks from pushing forward quickly, as well as using blink stalkers to abuse the immobility of tanks and address the mobility of banshees. It also shows the durability of this two base all-in, and the dangers it faces against a fast-upgrading protoss who manages to hit 3/3.
Most of the time, it seems that Yen's opponents are simply unprepared for any sort of enormously fast. banshee play from a 2-basing terran. He does a good job of getting the fastest banshee imaginable on 2 base, and that certainly contributes, as well as his solid control. The follow-up push is very strong, but is on a ticking clock against an opponent who goes for colossi. Killing production facilities like he did against Axlav was effective, but I'd like to see how things would have gone if axlav had retained his first 3 robotics facilities.
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@Blazinghand
Yep, it's all about the banshees, which is why I think he should stick to 1 factory and get 3 starports. Not only do I think banshees are more useful, but it is also a better match to his income, meaning less idle production.
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Isn't this similar to MVP's 2 base marine tank banshee which he has been doing for his whole vP career. GSL august vs MC group stages is a fine example. He goes 1 rax cc into double gas into factory tech. He has 1 bunker the whole time. MC could have attacked with 4 gate pressure after expand and won.
Also, I don't think stim is very good for this timing. I think I remember hearing windy on stream saying its a c shield timing.
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On January 02 2012 20:28 hersenen wrote:
sksyen you didn't answer my question of why siege tanks over thors? I'm really interested..
thors will delay your push by 2 minutes, at which time your opponent will ample time to get an advantage in army supply and a better composition to defend with. Siege tanks are much better for pushing against protoss when you're not maxed, while thors are good for breaking FF contain at their ramp while they are still on 1 base or just putting their expo down, OR when you're maxed out on thor banshee (see asd's game from gsl nov on bel shir against some protoss) they don't trade well unless they're against small numbers or at a critical mass.
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oh this build is owning me the last days -.-!
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hmm i'll add this to my arsenal, thanks!
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On January 02 2012 06:56 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
hongunprime is fulltiltpokr?? Is this confirmed I've never heard of this? I beat this guy in ladder!
He streams while playing as fulltiltpokr. I would assume that it is then, infact, Hongun...
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On January 02 2012 02:13 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. It's just very slightly more economical, I often do a 13 rax.
13 rax also allows for smoother timing if you want to depot scout.
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I tried this strategy, but I always died to 1 base or 2 base timings before i can get cloaked banshee or a tank with siege out.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 02 2012 22:13 Willzzz wrote:
@Blazinghand
Yep, it's all about the banshees, which is why I think he should stick to 1 factory and get 3 starports. Not only do I think banshees are more useful, but it is also a better match to his income, meaning less idle production.
Well, I think the strength of the build's banshee play is the timing of the early banshee, not the follow-up banshees in the main army. Like, the classic protoss 1 gate FE into 2x Forge gets a delayed robo, and often has only 1 observer on hand and very few stalkers when this fast banshee hits. Protoss only rushes out a robo against a 1-basing terran, not an obviously 1-rax-FEing terran. The surprise is in the risky marine cutting and double gas.
The surprise factor of the banshee is good for about a minute, and in that window Yen lays down some serious pain. After that, the banshees are primarily to provide a mobile element, force stalkers, and spot for his tanks. Still a useful battle unit, but his marines and tanks lay down the real hurt.
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I'm going to try this ... thanks!
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This is a really fun build to use, I'm rather bored of MMMVG.. Had great success with it so far.
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Yes this build is very good. I cant vouch for high level, however at diamond/master level it works great.
Ive had a lot of people say that they odnt want to do a 2 base all in. However, ive had a lot of games where i didnt actually kill the P, or deal game ending damage, then re-pushed a few minutes later.
Ive won quite a lot of 30+ min games staying with push after push, killing the 3rd or 4th once sieged up outside their nat. Ive found its all about the banshees aswell. They decimate a base in seconds.
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Yeah, I think I'll go for 7-1-3, ever since this can then easily transition into MMMGV with banshees with cloak :D and possible for a late-game BC transition... good build anyways! :D
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On January 02 2012 06:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 05:54 HardMacro wrote:On January 02 2012 03:40 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 03:36 blinkblue wrote:On January 02 2012 03:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 02 2012 02:01 Paljas wrote:
is there a special reason for the 13 (insteaf of 12) rax?
nice build btw. I do this in TvT when I 1 rax FE. Delaying first rax builds up money to start your 2nd CC earlier. How? You're still spending the 150 minerals on the rax either way, and 12rax doesn't stop worker production. The only advantage you get is the maybe 10-15 minerals from having a worker stay on the mineral line. Try it. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 13, you can make a CC at natural at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making rax at 12. It'll be at 17 or 18.Just a bit faster. Tried this. You're kind of trying to misrepresent the results here. By cutting scvs at 15, and making rax at 12, you can make a CC at nautral at 15 or 16. Try it then by not cutting scvs, and making a rax at 13. It'll be at 17 or 18. <-- This is also true as making the rax on 12 or 13 has ultimately zero effect; it's the cutting scvs at 15 that gets you the natural CC faster. Even by logic it should be clear; there is going to be a scv that's building a rax and not mining for 65 seconds, whether you choose to make that rax at 12 or 13 is irrelevant. The only difference here is that by making the scv on 13 instead of 12, you get a little more minerals before the rax finishes and the scv returns mining, but total income is evened out as soon as that scv returns mining and mines a few times. But it's still advantageous to make the rax on 12; proxy gates anyone? Uhh.. I said you make scvs to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, marine and CC at natural at 16. You're spewing pure theorycraft. I've done it. I've run it. It lands out perfectly with the minerals when you scv to 15, cut at 15, OC at 15, and CC at natural at 16. I know for a fact. I don't have BS numbers that I made up. You're the kind of person that needs to get away from these forums. Nothing but stupid non game play facts.
Uh, theorycrafting in places such as this is perfectly fine. Also what is up with being all offensive because someone is discussing with you? If you ask me it's people like you that should go away from this forum, if you cannot discuss without getting all offended you are just hurting the discussions. Even more so when you are not even paying attention to what he's actually saying, but instead just getting mad because he's disagreeing with you. What he is saying is that there should be no difference between the 12 and 13 rax in economy, which is true if you perform it optimally and place your barracks at your mineral field there should literary be 0 difference.
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Hi guys !
I created my TL account to answer to this topic !
I have bad tvp and I suck with bio, i'm a huge fan of old bw tvp style with mech, so I always try to use tanks / mech in tvp and I'm constantly looking for alternatives to classical MMM.
I tried your build and i really love it. I give my opinion :
1 - Early game :
For sure, you are very sensitive to protoss all-in, so you have to scout well if protoss takes fast expand. If not, bunker more and keep some scans to avoid DT. I would veto smallers maps when playing this stratagy cause I suppose players are more tended to cheese on smaller maps.
2 - Banshee :
If P fast-exps, banshee is really annoying for protoss. I mean, you're not supposed to KILL a good protoss with one or two banshees, but you can harrass enough to keep protoss at home while you mass marines/tanks. Your 1st banshee comes quiete early, and so as cloak. A good protoss will always send 1 obs in terran's base, so I try to hide my starport as much as possible. When the 1st banshee arrives, with some luck P will have no obs in his base, because banshee is not expected when you see a terran fast exp. Then you can harrass b1 and natural with 2 banshees, that really forces protoss to build obs. You can really take a small advantage like this.
3 - Upgrades :
In the game vs Axslav, you get army-trade because of the lack of upgrades.
If you harrass well with banshee, the 12-13 min push is deadly but if you can't kill him, then I try to take 3rd base at 17-18 min game and start upgrades marines at least, tanks and banshee at best.
Also I think you can go battlecruiser in the late game.
4 - Maps :
I really like the mix of tanks/marines and banshee to give vision for tanks. The tank placement is of course very important so this strategy works better on maps where you can hit your opponent's natural with tanks behind a cliff, like Tal Darim or Shakuras.
5 - Protoss' response to this build :
As long as i played this build, I think protoss has to go Air. Except stalker, protoss has no really good solution against banshee, and stalker gets killed by tank. Phoenix can lift tank and kill banshee so it's a real good response. But as Terran got 2 starport u can build some vikings to support your air.
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Just wanted to confirm that this build works just as well in HotS A weakness is definitely an early oracle harrass from protoss which can completely fuck you up. I almost managed to come back after losing 16 workers to said oracles and win the game, but the push was delayed till min 15~ ca. I should've went with a max 200/200 instead in that case since this composition is extremely strong. Dealing with blink stalkers can be a bit tricky as well but I feel that if you tweak the build so you start immediate siege tank production and a little later cloak banshee you will be fine vs it, with 2 well positioned siege tanks (your second one should be about half way through when the stalkers hit).
In addition I have been thinking that adding an early engineering bay and 1 turret in each mineral line (just automatically) should be fine, and will cover you vs that oracle harrass so that you take minor damage and you can upgrade +1 for your marines with the eng bay since you have an additional 150 gas & 150 minerals (from not having to research siege upgrade anymore!).
But yeah, this push is still as strong as ever
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On July 01 2013 00:43 Chrobbus wrote:Just wanted to confirm that this build works just as well in HotS A weakness is definitely an early oracle harrass from protoss which can completely fuck you up. I almost managed to come back after losing 16 workers to said oracles and win the game, but the push was delayed till min 15~ ca. I should've went with a max 200/200 instead in that case since this composition is extremely strong. Dealing with blink stalkers can be a bit tricky as well but I feel that if you tweak the build so you start immediate siege tank production and a little later cloak banshee you will be fine vs it, with 2 well positioned siege tanks (your second one should be about half way through when the stalkers hit). In addition I have been thinking that adding an early engineering bay and 1 turret in each mineral line (just automatically) should be fine, and will cover you vs that oracle harrass so that you take minor damage and you can upgrade +1 for your marines with the eng bay since you have an additional 150 gas & 150 minerals (from not having to research siege upgrade anymore!). But yeah, this push is still as strong as ever
I would disagree.
1) Mamaship core deters the early banshee harass really well.
2) Because of the threat of widow mine drops, more Protoss are putting cannons at their mineral lines by 7 minutes which means your cloak banshee does nothing.
3) Stargate openings are bad for you because you spend all your resources making things that do not shoot up.
4) 1 base plays by Protoss are more frequent nowadays with the cheaper dark shrine, mamaship core, oracles, etc that can all start from the standard 13 gate 15 double gas build.
5) There are better things to harass with than banshees. The things that defend against widow mine or hellbat drop also defend against banshees.
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On July 01 2013 01:21 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 00:43 Chrobbus wrote:Just wanted to confirm that this build works just as well in HotS A weakness is definitely an early oracle harrass from protoss which can completely fuck you up. I almost managed to come back after losing 16 workers to said oracles and win the game, but the push was delayed till min 15~ ca. I should've went with a max 200/200 instead in that case since this composition is extremely strong. Dealing with blink stalkers can be a bit tricky as well but I feel that if you tweak the build so you start immediate siege tank production and a little later cloak banshee you will be fine vs it, with 2 well positioned siege tanks (your second one should be about half way through when the stalkers hit). In addition I have been thinking that adding an early engineering bay and 1 turret in each mineral line (just automatically) should be fine, and will cover you vs that oracle harrass so that you take minor damage and you can upgrade +1 for your marines with the eng bay since you have an additional 150 gas & 150 minerals (from not having to research siege upgrade anymore!). But yeah, this push is still as strong as ever I would disagree. 1) Mamaship core deters the early banshee harass really well. 2) Because of the threat of widow mine drops, more Protoss are putting cannons at their mineral lines by 7 minutes which means your cloak banshee does nothing. 3) Stargate openings are bad for you because you spend all your resources making things that do not shoot up. 4) 1 base plays by Protoss are more frequent nowadays with the cheaper dark shrine, mamaship core, oracles, etc that can all start from the standard 13 gate 15 double gas build. 5) There are better things to harass with than banshees. The things that defend against widow mine or hellbat drop also defend against banshees.
You can disagree all you want but that does not change the fact that I have been having success with this build in HOTS mid-high masters. And even if protoss has cannons in his mineral lines when your cloakshees hit, you can still take out forges/pylons/cyber core and whatnot if he has no obs. Furthermore you can snipe off sentries (the most crucial unit to get) and further delay his tech since he will need to replace them, 100 gas each, or risk getting run over without any when your force of marines tanks cloakshees+raven hits. You do not _need_ to deal dmg with the banshees, it's just an added bonus. What matters is that you do not lose any banshee at all during your harrass though.
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When I first saw this thread in the sidebar, I thought a Terran HotS guide had finally been released. I am disappoint
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EPT![[image loading]](http://p1kachu.com/sig.jpg)
