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On December 02 2011 15:14 Conquerer67 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat? Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down. Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4. However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up  Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
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On December 03 2011 06:24 Markwerf wrote:
I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this..
If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism.
You hit with 4 immortals, a lot of stalkers, a shit load of sentries with several forcefields available and you can warp-in 4 zealots at a time if you see alot of lings. Roaches die so quickly to the immortals, and so do spine crawlers. Lings are pretty much useless against so many force-fields.
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On December 03 2011 10:18 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 06:24 Markwerf wrote:
I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this..
If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism. You hit with 4 immortals, a lot of stalkers, a shit load of sentries with several forcefields available and you can warp-in 4 zealots at a time if you see alot of lings. Roaches die so quickly to the immortals, and so do spine crawlers. Lings are pretty much useless against so many force-fields.
Markwerf is actually right. In the long run this build creates just another Timing Zergs have to figure out. In essence its a 4 Gate with 4 Immortals and a Prism that hits ~ 4 Minutes later and has some harassment at 7-8 Minutes.
If you engage open field with roach ling and he places FF to shield his Army Z can simply run away and wait for the FF to expire and Stalker/Sentry/Immo without Upgrades and FF against Roach/Ling is quite crap.
Dont get me wrong, its very strong and not gimmicky at all, but unless a transition is incorperated its just a 111-like Build to steal wins and metagaming Zergs into less greedy builds.
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I just beat Violet with it while he was stream AFTER I lost 2 immortals to lings for free, ezpz.
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On December 03 2011 10:14 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:14 Conquerer67 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat? Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down. Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4. However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off. Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
Well, most zergs have 3 queens on 2 bases, and some get another one to make it more harass resistant. Not to mention that, when we see the lack of an expansion at 6:30, we stop droning and scout the shit out of your base. We just know that you're doing something unusual, so we preprare for voids, DTs, or a 4 gate. Which, as zerg, is by no means out of our way. And the prism will be rendered ineffective for warps by the queens, and if it unloads, then you're relying on the idea of your sentries never running out of mana. We just have to pull drones for a second, then your FF wears off and we stop the harass with minimal lost mining time.I'm not saying it's easy to do that, and you'll probably win most of your games in plat and below with this, but it's basically just a 1/1/1 for PvZ beyond that.
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This build is so...Good! Ty for sharin, Lobber
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This build is great. Who knew that 1 basing as Protoss could be so awesome against Zerg? 
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This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem.
http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNw
oh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
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Wouldn't this lose to mass ling? They'd force you to be defensive...
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getting a Robo on 1 base gives it away usually when scouted. Every protoss has been trying this 1 base robo build recently with high immortal count.
Doesn't work vs Ling/Bane/Roach into ling/bane/Hydra + spines.
If your doing stalker/Immortal, thats even worse since lings can destroy this easily. Heavy zealot works better, but only if there isn't a baneling nest.
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On December 04 2011 03:55 BroboCop wrote:This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNwoh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
Not sure what the point of your post is.
To safe others from wasting their time: In this replay the Z gets early lings into lobbers base, which delays everything and the final engagements happens with a way different army than described here (loads of sentries, few stalkers).
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sorry i'm new to the thread. so this is essentially a 4-gate robo??..
i'll be watching some of the replays during NASL i suppose
*edit* so which were your losses in the replay pack ?
*edit2* so after viewing 7 or so replays, i went and did this to a friend who wanted to play with me.
he commented after the game that he was expecting either DT or voidrays or expecting something cheesy (read:warp-prism as i purposely sent it through watchtower vision) since it was just some 1-base. he did well in droning to 40, but started zergling speed late and to my luck i managed to grab the spawning pool just as it was about to finish.
he was floating 1.5k mins with roach tech, two spines and 4 or so queens, and still managed to churn out about 10 roaches before all of that. i killed quite a lot through the initial drop since he was preparing for stargate and dt specifically when he missed seeing my prism halfway across the map.
i have no doubt it'd normally get crushed by good macro, less compensation for the fact that it's a 1-base-something (since he didn't overlord scout), and heavy roach as the warp-prism is dealt with. i felt that the first drop that happens is not very scary, and over-valuing it (from observing your replays on KR server) is what brings the zerg's response to be slow enough that they can't hold.
i think if the zerg sacs his natural and runs his drones in time, keeps any units intact before engaging the army, he would actually still be ahead if he were droning and not busy worrying about some 1-base cheese.
the idea of the warp-prism being the unassailable pylon makes it harder to hold off than a normal 4-gate. then again, what are the normal indicators that a protoss is 4-gating?
the drop gives zerg a chance to accumulate queens to transfuse. roach burrow is not really a normal option but would potentially stop the first push.
that said, i feel your strategy is akin to a more complicated 4-gate but is easier to execute to good effect because of how unexpected the warp-prism is, how strong immortals are, the fact that it is a 1-base play, and that the warp-prism provides vision for attacking up ramps and so on.
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On December 04 2011 04:26 eteran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 03:55 BroboCop wrote:This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNwoh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious. Not sure what the point of your post is. To safe others from wasting their time: In this replay the Z gets early lings into lobbers base, which delays everything and the final engagements happens with a way different army than described here (loads of sentries, few stalkers).
my point is he boasts about the build when he beats a player like violet while not explaining/providing replays where it gets utterly stomped (fails) because when its obvious he will do some 1base trash AND because of his lack of scouting he can lose to anything. The build is extremely blind and expects a zerg to do? what? i'm not sure. any form of early aggression whether it be cheese or not will stomp this build. the lack of information he is sacrificing for 35-40minerals/min (for the worker) is unfathomable.
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On December 03 2011 10:14 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:14 Conquerer67 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat? Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down. Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4. However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off. Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
Yes? I played vs it and am fully aware. It's a very strong all-in. I was just commenting on counters. The 4-queen build has actually far MORE time to prepare for the harass than I anticipated, however, it's the actual all-in attack that's hardest to stop.
On December 04 2011 04:21 Keyz1 wrote:
getting a Robo on 1 base gives it away usually when scouted. Every protoss has been trying this 1 base robo build recently with high immortal count.
Doesn't work vs Ling/Bane/Roach into ling/bane/Hydra + spines.
If your doing stalker/Immortal, thats even worse since lings can destroy this easily. Heavy zealot works better, but only if there isn't a baneling nest.
Completely wrong.... ling/bane/roach would get stomped.
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Before telling that this doesn't work against mass ling or stuff like that, why don't you just watch the replay pack?
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On December 04 2011 05:46 BlackBurn wrote:
Before telling that this doesn't work against mass ling or stuff like that, why don't you just watch the replay pack?
the problem with some of the the games from KR server is.. they run the lings into the army automatically and without a flank, haha. diamond league
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Very cool build. Seems to induce a lot of RAGE as well. Do you think doing the same opening (2stalker 1 immortal drop) but then expanding behind it with sentries/natural wall would be viable?
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On December 04 2011 06:15 Drowsy wrote:
Very cool build. Seems to induce a lot of RAGE as well. Do you think doing the same opening (2stalker 1 immortal drop) but then expanding behind it with sentries/natural wall would be viable?
That would defeat the purpose of the build. 1 gate robo expand wouldn't be able to constantly churn out units well to defend a ling allin, as Immortals are 250/100 or something high like that.
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It is possible to expand behind a 2 zealot + stalker + warp prism drop, however. by the time the harass is done, you're on 3 WG + robo, have 2-3 immortals and a nexus. if they don't keep their lings in their base you just kill their drones and hide up your ramp and cancel the nexus, then you're 3 gate robo against a one base zerg, ezpz
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EPT
