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Early mass zergling has stopped me from having a 100% win rate. I did play 2 people twice in a row each, and it worked both times against one of them, and the other guy stopped me pretty handily. I know I shouldn't try to just do the exact same thing against every zerg, especially ones that have seen the strat, but I wanted to see what they could do to stop it.
By the time my warp prism was ready to harass, the zerg had 20+ zerglings with speed available to dart from base to base, so there was no possible early harrassment for me. I still attempted to do the all-in when all of my units were ready, and managed to kill his nat after force fielding all of his zerglings in his main. I ended up losing a bunch of those units due to a flubbed force field, so I guess its not necessarily mass zergling that will stop this. I still don't know how the game would've played out if I hadn't lost most of my units, He had taken a third around the time I killed his nat and was retreating. I mean, I guess after that, assuming I hadn't lost a bunch of stuff, I could've warped in a bazillion zealots asap to try and take him on, but I'm still not sure.
Anyways, he went for mutas after that, and it turned into a base race which I lost.
Edit: Also, by the time my push came, he had probably more than 40 zerglings.
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On December 05 2011 19:45 ppterodactyl wrote:
Early mass zergling has stopped me from having a 100% win rate. I did play 2 people twice in a row each, and it worked both times against one of them, and the other guy stopped me pretty handily. I know I shouldn't try to just do the exact same thing against every zerg, especially ones that have seen the strat, but I wanted to see what they could do to stop it.
By the time my warp prism was ready to harass, the zerg had 20+ zerglings with speed available to dart from base to base, so there was no possible early harrassment for me. I still attempted to do the all-in when all of my units were ready, and managed to kill his nat after force fielding all of his zerglings in his main. I ended up losing a bunch of those units due to a flubbed force field, so I guess its not necessarily mass zergling that will stop this. I still don't know how the game would've played out if I hadn't lost most of my units, He had taken a third around the time I killed his nat and was retreating. I mean, I guess after that, assuming I hadn't lost a bunch of stuff, I could've warped in a bazillion zealots asap to try and take him on, but I'm still not sure.
Anyways, he went for mutas after that, and it turned into a base race which I lost.
Edit: Also, by the time my push came, he had probably more than 40 zerglings.
If you scout no roaches or roach warren with your warp prism warp in a round of zealots before you actually make your push, helps wonders vs lings builds, but 60 lings should barely do any damage to your army assuming you have decent force-fields...
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On December 05 2011 18:15 Lobber wrote:
I've on stream beaten EGMachine, Violet, and several other GM and top 100 masters level zergs... Also it's impossible imo to stop without hydras assuming P micros properly.
Give it time, it's a simple fact of zerg and zerg pros that they'll have trouble with something new because their insatiable drone lust causes them to never take the "first mover " advantage. So a new build can let anybody beat "top tier" zerg pro's.
Case in point, though different mu, destiny beating bomber... although destiny won macro games so he maintains fair bit of cred.
Don't say something is impossible, simplifying the game down to mere unit counters is stupid. Though it works in your favor cause if zergs now tried to hardcounter your push you can just take an expo behind and ultra fast collosus with the robo already up gg ( hence why I don't trust your analysis).
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Jesus... This build sounds very good, but insanely hard to utilize for a bronzie like me 
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this seems like a very nice build for maps where u cant ffe  defo gonna try this, thx for sharing!
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Interestingly, I've done a similar build many months ago. But at that time we didn't have the +1 range on immortals and the better prism, and I lost a bit too often to mass lings to my taste. Also I was warping a lot of zealots initially, so when Zerg went for fast mutas it was too late for stalkers. But I'll try your version now, it seems even more powerful, thanks !
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I LOVE this build :D. Learning to use the WP effectively and winning as well is awesome lol. I have won 10 straight when I first was trying this build out. Definitely modify it based on what units the zerg has out or will be getting out. ie lings - more zealots, Roaches - more stalkers all while creating immortals :D Works wonders. Thanks Lobber !!
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On December 04 2011 21:18 floatingbee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:38 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote:
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later! <3 Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
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On December 06 2011 02:03 craziekev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:18 floatingbee wrote:On December 02 2011 11:38 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote:
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later! <3 Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by? Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
Sometimes im amused here. It's a 4 gate + Robo build, it's total all in. And you have loads of money floating couse you arent good enough to spend chronos + manage warpins while pushing.
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I've been doing this build a lot because it's really fun, probably have a 70-75 percent win-rate with it vs GM / high masters players. It's definitely quite stoppable and as its popularity increases Zergs will learn to stop playing like idiots versus it I think
It is quite satisfying the amount of rage it can induce though, practically gave Zilea an aneurism.
You mentioned a fast colossus build, would you be willing to share that as well? How does that fare versus 2 hatch mutas?
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On December 06 2011 02:03 craziekev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:18 floatingbee wrote:On December 02 2011 11:38 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote:
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later! <3 Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by? Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
If there ever was an all-in, this would be one lol.
Anyway I'm going to try this once I get done with my finals, looks really strong.
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I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with
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On December 06 2011 02:03 craziekev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:18 floatingbee wrote:On December 02 2011 11:38 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote:
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later! <3 Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by? Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
I would say it is an all-in, and a very strong one in the current meta game. Haven't lost with it yet. And i agree with lobber that hydras is probably the only proper response, but i've beaten hydras aswell. Massling doesn't work, ever. Only if you are sloppy and FF bad, or take a fight right in the open. You have great scouting and know what units he does, and it's really hard for a zerg player to know how heavily he must drone, since he needs either lings or roaches early on as queens wont cut it.
If zerg player does 3-4 queens he will delay his lair for so long also preventing hydras which would be required. You can as P attack anywhere between 8-11 minutes, the sooner the better of course, and he wont stand much of a chance. But i don't see how it couldn't be an all-in. You cut probe production, you have 4 gates and a robo on 1 base. I guess if it's a "failed" attack where u bring down his probe count and expansion while not being able to attack his front due to spines or w/e (like 10 of them) it could be possible to transition out of.
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On December 06 2011 12:14 enjoylol wrote:
I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with
Baneling bust will be scoutable, therefor having a sentry or two on the ramp will delay it enough... Nydus could be tricky idd, but who would nydus against a 1 basing toss? And you'd still be basetrading with a toss that has about 3 immortals dealing insane damage to the Z player. Don't think it'd be enough..
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The build is strong but not easy to pull off for diamond at least, though i've beaten masters with it..
I float too much and do too little dmg with my Prism, and i still win with it unless i royally fuck my force fields up. Though at the same time lots of wins were just from baiting Z into his main and then force fielding him out. Still its scary that its working even when I mess up a lot, thanks op
edit - forgot the main thing
Have you tried incorporating a forge with +1 to finish about the time when push is ready. It comes at the cost of 1 immortal, and will help a lot vs lings.
Also, wish there was a way to hide the build better as 3gate expands seem rare now
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On December 06 2011 12:45 iokke wrote:
The build is strong but not easy to pull off for diamond at least, though i've beaten masters with it..
I float too much and do too little dmg with my Prism, and i still win with it unless i royally fuck my force fields up. Though at the same time lots of wins were just from baiting Z into his main and then force fielding him out. Still its scary that its working even when I mess up a lot, thanks op
edit - forgot the main thing
Have you tried incorporating a forge with +1 to finish about the time when push is ready. It comes at the cost of 1 immortal, and will help a lot vs lings.
Also, wish there was a way to hide the build better as 3gate expands seem rare now
Thing about dealing damage with warp prism.. The damage you do is forcing the zerg player to make units early, instead of making drones. I played a game where i killed 3 workers, 1 queen and 1 creep tumor, and that is more than i usually do. About floating minerals, just make 2 extra immortals or so, keep on checking ur gateways when they are off cd. Make sentries early to save up gas, and stalkers with that. If you noticed he made alot of lings when ur pushing out, just warp in zealots after that. I don't think incorporating a +1 attack is worth it since it will leave you waiting, aswell as using all ur CB on it while it could and should have been used on immortals and gateways, also it costs 250/100, which is imo not worth it seeing as lings shouldn't be a problem with forcefields anyway.
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What are these zergs doing that you are catching them off guard at 9:30 when u have no natural expo lol.
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Thanks for the tips!
Yeah I realized that at the very least he isnt making drones, though at the same time it seems a bit counter intuitive (allin coming, id prefer him to have only drones... i think)
With forge, i think if you build it shortly after robo you wont need to use too many CB on it for +1 to finish by the time your main push is in his base. I tried it one time, cutting an early sentry for gas, did not seem like it hurt the timing too much (then again, at my level timings are not as precise).
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I like this build, I might actually have to try it just to add to my arsenal of strong all-ins. Around what time is ideal for the Warp Prism to be hitting his base? ( I haven't had to look at the replays yet or the complete thread so I apologize if this has been answered before)
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On December 06 2011 12:41 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 12:14 enjoylol wrote:
I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with Baneling bust will be scoutable, therefor having a sentry or two on the ramp will delay it enough... Nydus could be tricky idd, but who would nydus against a 1 basing toss? And you'd still be basetrading with a toss that has about 3 immortals dealing insane damage to the Z player. Don't think it'd be enough..
Well he doesn't scout, so there's your deviation. A baneling bust should hard counter the build how he does it (no scouting), but I presume other people who adopt it would scout. Also, who the fuck goes 14/14 banes anymore?
I know immortals are strong, but I was very surprised at how strong the attack actually is. I knew it would be strong, but it's slightly stronger (and later) than I assumed it would be.
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EPT
