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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that: Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244816 The irony is comical. | ||
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MutaKingPrime
Korea (South)43 Posts
On December 06 2011 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals. I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that: Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244816 The irony is comical. LOL | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On December 06 2011 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals. I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that: Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244816 The irony is comical. Tang is like the biggest joke in SC2 | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Although if he did his 14/14 bling bust that he advocates against Terran he might have won^^. Bust kills the zealot blocking the ramp, and allows lings to runin (if stalker is close enough to block, it'll actually take dmg from blings, and lings can simply focus down weakened gate or core, whichever is weaker). Anyways, I think the true power in this build is that if you DON'T know it's coming, so you can't attempt to blind counter it. There's absolutely no reason to 14/14 bling bust unless you know the person is doing this build... well, maybe people will do it vs you since they'll recognize your name on ladder :o. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On December 03 2011 10:30 Xanatoss wrote: Markwerf is actually right. In the long run this build creates just another Timing Zergs have to figure out. In essence its a 4 Gate with 4 Immortals and a Prism that hits ~ 4 Minutes later and has some harassment at 7-8 Minutes. If you engage open field with roach ling and he places FF to shield his Army Z can simply run away and wait for the FF to expire and Stalker/Sentry/Immo without Upgrades and FF against Roach/Ling is quite crap. Dont get me wrong, its very strong and not gimmicky at all, but unless a transition is incorperated its just a 111-like Build to steal wins and metagaming Zergs into less greedy builds. I do agree that I think the best move for zergs must be to engage the army in the middle of the map or possibly quick hydras, but they still need A LOT of units to even put a dent in the army. The strong point(imo) lies in immortals making spine-crawler and roach defenses pretty much useless and lings do nothing at all vs sentries with a lot of energy saved up. It's definitely not unbeatable though, even if I never lost with it in top masters (6-0 so far). Most zerg players just respond to this like retards, I even met one who went up to 65 drones vs a 1-base protoss. I'd say this push is many times stronger than how the 4-gate felt before zergs figured it out. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:39 Conquerer67 wrote: Well, most zergs have 3 queens on 2 bases, and some get another one to make it more harass resistant. Not to mention that, when we see the lack of an expansion at 6:30, we stop droning and scout the shit out of your base. We just know that you're doing something unusual, so we preprare for voids, DTs, or a 4 gate. Which, as zerg, is by no means out of our way. While this would be a sensible respone, not many people react like this. Most zerg players go 40+ drones versus these kinds of builds, and even if they don't it's certainly not a free win for them. And the prism will be rendered ineffective for warps by the queens, and if it unloads, then you're relying on the idea of your sentries never running out of mana. We just have to pull drones for a second, then your FF wears off and we stop the harass with minimal lost mining time. I'm not really relying on my sentries never running out of mana, I'm just saying if you place your pool behind your mineral line it's a free win for me on certain maps. With 4 forcefields you can block off any zerglings from attacking with 1 forcefield. IIRC a forcefield last 15 seconds, which would let me deny you mining for 1 minute, which certainly isn't "minimal lost mining time". You need to understand that doing damage with the warp prism is not required, even though it's guaranteed. Most of the damage is done indirectly by forcing the zerg to build lings. They need quite an hefty amount aswell since you can at any point (well, after your gates complete) warp in an additional 4 zealots if they're low on units and insta win. I'm not saying it's easy to do that, and you'll probably win most of your games in plat and below with this, but it's basically just a 1/1/1 for PvZ beyond that. Incredibly stupid comparison. 1/1/1 is used all the time by top korean terrans and consistently win, yet your saying that this build is mostly useful in plat league? This build is viable at a very high level. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On December 06 2011 18:20 coL.CatZ wrote: sounds like a really interesting build 8-| I'm a little sad I posted it, talking to a lot of my zerg buddies, a lot of people are using it and now zergs are getting a little better at defending.... What would you do to counter, you do generally have a slightly different approach to a lot of things, what's your take on the build? | ||
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monx
Canada1400 Posts
thanks a lot | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:44 monx wrote: please post a replay or two lobber thanks a lot I posted a replay pack of over 30. | ||
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monx
Canada1400 Posts
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
Some Notes on Defending : 1. The Protoss is not expanding, the zerg response is almost always the same. Zerglings, Queens, and Spines should be the words of the day, with a spore in each base as a precaution against warp prisms, dts, and star-gate. 2. If you scout a robo, throw down a few spines in your main as well, just keep producing enough drones to cover your building costs. 3. Whenever the allin comes, your army should be able to deal with it, you have better production, better reinforce, and a better income. This is an allin, it does not punish greedy zergs, just zergs who don't know how to respond to it correctly and are expecting dt / void / 4-gate allins. I scouted a robo, threw down spines in my main and reinforced with extra spines at my natural, and made queens and spines like mad. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense. Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings. Are you "iAmSeXi"? On December 07 2011 04:33 Lobber wrote: I'm a little sad I posted it, talking to a lot of my zerg buddies, a lot of people are using it and now zergs are getting a little better at defending.... What would you do to counter, you do generally have a slightly different approach to a lot of things, what's your take on the build? One can only presume that would happen. I had been doing an extremely similar build to Spanishwa (4 queens, no gas, take all four gas at 44 supply, except I often didn't even get a single spine crawler, while I believe he gets two, I just got the queens out faster to defend and relied on pulling drones which seemed to work out better for me). No one knew wtf I was doing and assumed it was a horrible build, and I got one base allnied ALL the time because "you weren't going to have speed and couldn't hold my push off," and I'd constantly STEAMROLL them with queens + masses of slowlings. Followed up with double evos like him but immediately deviated from his path afterwards. Before he posted his strat, I was absolutely dominant with it, and was destroying most top Terrans on ladder. When it came to the semi-pros like HasHe, Drewbie, etc. I could win multiple times in a row without dropping a single game. Then when he posted the strat, and people started using it more, people learned to counter it so much better... like they realized keeping hellions right outside my main so I couldn't spread creep (which was, without a doubt, the main reason I won my games, I'd say I had better creep spread than 95%+ of pros at the time, far better than IdrA/Ret who people used to marvel at their spread). And since Spanishwa has been posted, my win rate ZvT and ZvP both plummeted (Protoss started doing 1 gate FE with stalker pokes to abuse my lack of spine and slow lings which started CRUSHING me). Which leads me to say... if you have a killer strat, my advice is to keep it to yourself.... people will recognize your name and realize you're going for it, and counters WILL develop. I still go 4 queen no gas in ZvT 75% of the time, but I'm no where near as dominant in the MU as I used to be.  . | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense. Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings. This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields. | ||
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piiiT
43 Posts
thx a lot lobber  | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote: This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields. I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 07 2011 13:59 chadissilent wrote: I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it. Ah that's right, you're the guy I anticipated an aggressive strat after you told me about those Roaches  . I don't know why I confused you with the other guy, he never mentioned the 8 roach thing. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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Xenomorph
United States137 Posts
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EPT
Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
