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On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote:
I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Sounds like the guy you played didn't execute it correctly tbh.
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On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote:
I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Yeah this counter won't work if P does it well, no amount of spine or roach can hold, neither can mass mass spine muta ling, only potential holds are super macro pure ling, I'm talking 80+ lings with reinforcements coming, or super fast hydras, you need 10+ hydras out before I got to your base or I can win with FF and even then you need a lot of lings and spines and likely a drone pull too survive.
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just done it today I did it BADLY and still it seemed overpowered, the dropforced extra lings, some static defence in main and even an extra queen or not.. then forsome reason zergs still go roach...lol i just made sure to kill a queen pickup and try to snipeoverlords around too forcing more unitsand pulling queens away frominjecting.
Lot more needs to eb done then just building the units, thingslike notletting overlords scout yuou by spreading pylons around, tkaing towers by dropping on lings holding them or even overlordsaroundthe map, then when the dropcomes the zerg panics and sned in armies and with properforcefiled placement youcan seperate the ling and roach and then even forcefield again to stop the lings if they dontpull them back and they committhem. Deffiantly a strat that is perfect for a best of 3.
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This has been very handy against Zerg, even when I horribly execute it (1 minute late, although getting better). Lower diamond zergs are getting roflstomped when I used to have some serious trouble ~10-12m mark when mutas came out in force. Thanks ^^
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On December 08 2011 07:47 TheShadower wrote:
This has been very handy against Zerg, even when I horribly execute it (1 minute late, although getting better). Lower diamond zergs are getting roflstomped when I used to have some serious trouble ~10-12m mark when mutas came out in force. Thanks ^^
aye if they go muta it normamlly means they will have not enough army to counter it and u can just warp in stalkers and mutas wont want to base race in low numbers 
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On December 08 2011 02:36 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 02:33 Bergys wrote:On December 08 2011 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On December 08 2011 01:29 Bergys wrote:On December 07 2011 13:59 chadissilent wrote:On December 07 2011 07:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote:
I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings. Are you "iAmSeXi"? I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote:
I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings. This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields. I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it. What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league. I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them. I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit. Your going to snipe 1 stalker if you're lucky against a good player, and it's not really worth losing alot of roaches for 1 stalker. Since you do know stalkers are faster than roaches without speed, and I highly doubt you have roach speed if you've been spamming lings and roaches. Also, a good player wouldn't let you camp his ramp. He could just harass you with his 1/2 immortals and force you to away from the ramp to the point where he can get most of his units down without you noticing. Do you want to test this out? I know what build you're doing, you know how I plan on dealing with it. Sound fair?
I'm sure you'd beat me if you know what I'm doing since you seem to have experience playing against it. I'm just saying your 'ramp-camping' has no part in beating the strategy, I'd even say it sets you behind versus players that know what theyre doing.
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Seeing as you get a robo, but don't get an observer, has anyone ever tried burrowed banelings on you? I mean, if they KNOW exactly what's coming and burrow a handful of banelings in a spot you will likely likely walk over (like ramp out of their natural or into your natural), couldn't they take out your sentries and then just swarm you with slings? Have you considered trying to fit an obs into the build?
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i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/
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On December 08 2011 10:48 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/
I have been just hitting earlier, with 3 or even 2 immortals, if I scout 4 gas/fast lair/nothird, in order to hit before spire pops, which lets you run over most zergs who are saving for mutas.
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On December 08 2011 10:56 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 10:48 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/ I have been just hitting earlier, with 3 or even 2 immortals, if I scout 4 gas/fast lair/nothird, in order to hit before spire pops, which lets you run over most zergs who are saving for mutas.
hmm, i guess i never really thought about that, i feel dumb now cuz i realize that while im harassing with drop, i never REALLY look at their tech, i simply see roach warren and how many drones they have, but havent really been aware of lair timing.... ill def try out this faster push if i see fast lair...
thanks
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I'm getting banelings a fair bit from some zergs lately, I'm not sure whether they are just doing it wrong or whether it doesn't work, but I had some pretty close games vs banelings since he wastes my ffs with lings beforehand.
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I'm a mid masters zerg, and I just had a guy do this to me on ladder. Here is a quick summary of the game and how I defended it quite easily (don't think this defense has been mentioned yet):
The game began normally, though I noticed he wasn't taking his natural at the typical sentry expand timing. Curious, I sacked an overlord and scouted the robo. At this point I knew the build was coming - I don't know of any other 1 base robo plays from toss.
I decided I would try to defend without any tech at all, just queens and zerglings. I had my initial 3 queens (1 per base + 1 for creep spread). I then continually produced queens until the timing hit me. When he attacked I had 7 queens, a good number of lings and 5-6 spine crawlers. I destroyed the push, constantly transfusing my injured queens. In fact, it was so one sided I didn't even need my spines, and ended up chasing him out of my base without the use of the spines.
I have a replay if anyone is interested. Any thoughts on a pure speedling/queen defense? It seemed quite effective to me, but it was only one game.
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On December 08 2011 14:24 muffinsssss wrote:
I'm a mid masters zerg, and I just had a guy do this to me on ladder. Here is a quick summary of the game and how I defended it quite easily (don't think this defense has been mentioned yet):
The game began normally, though I noticed he wasn't taking his natural at the typical sentry expand timing. Curious, I sacked an overlord and scouted the robo. At this point I knew the build was coming - I don't know of any other 1 base robo plays from toss.
I decided I would try to defend without any tech at all, just queens and zerglings. I had my initial 3 queens (1 per base + 1 for creep spread). I then continually produced queens until the timing hit me. When he attacked I had 7 queens, a good number of lings and 5-6 spine crawlers. I destroyed the push, constantly transfusing my injured queens. In fact, it was so one sided I didn't even need my spines, and ended up chasing him out of my base without the use of the spines.
I have a replay if anyone is interested. Any thoughts on a pure speedling/queen defense? It seemed quite effective to me, but it was only one game.
I've been defending this for the past few days using sling / queen / spine.
Scout the robo, make queen / lings / spines, don't allow the warp prism to unload and get a fast +1 melee for the push. Ultimate tech should be towards muta, but as long as the zerg doesn't rush he should hold.
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Looks like a solid build I'll give it a try. I am worried about mass ling countering my main army but I guess I need gosu FF's.
I Haven't seen the replay pack yet but without seeing it I think it could get me a few wins.
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^I think you really need to watch the replays, it helps get a better idea of the build and timings.
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Some stubborn protoss did it to me twice in a row on xel. I held it easily the first time and got overconfident then but still held it with some difficulties the second game.
What as been working for me is just not overdroning or overteching. I get my evo chamber at 6 in case of DT or stargate all-in and a third queen, then my roach warren at 6:30 seeing no expo. Then I just get best mineral saturation on both bases + 1 gaz (16*2+3=35 drones). I thraw down a macro hatch around 7. And I then go into pure roach ling production. It seems weird because it feels like all-ining him but with 2 saturated bases I have a much better income.
The early third queen is really important to begin creep spreading asap (she also help a lot at defending the harass). The idea is to get the first major engagement on creep in a open field (just between the gold and your nat on xel). With a speedling eavy army plus a few roaches on creep you get an easy surround and sentrys shouldn't be enough to deny your 360° suround if you force some force field before the battle.
I feel that it's a good way of holding it because it's not that vulnerable to other one base all-ins (like 2 colossus rush) as long as you can engage him on creep. Something that I learned is also to be vary carefull of overlords positioning since they are the primary target off the wp harass.
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the problem that many zergs are saying stopped it once its easy to stop yet dont even probably watch the replay to see if the protoss did it properly, good forcefields are good vs someon who gets mass ling, and also vs ling/roach to seperate them. I never practice I only do it on ladder so my first attemps (100% so far) have been so poor, ive supply blocked myself, forgot pylons, didnt kill an incoming overlord and didnt do the harassment such as killing overlords at all well and still pretty much 1A vs the zerg so far. Fair enough my opponents probably arent master zergs but generally on my skill level vs equal players it abuses the fact that if they play too greedy or even tech direct to mutas this hits before the mutas even get enough to do anything. A good strategy to have in your arsenal just to use in a bo3 and perhaps catch an opponent off guard.
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So, Lobber, have you actually lost with this build yet? I mean, when you execute perfectly and all.
Its hard to believe you've got a 100% win rate against Zerg (excluding games where you make mistakes, like the 3 you describe in the OP). Has no one found an answer yet, in a game against you? Can you post some replays of yourself losing, if those exist?
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On December 08 2011 20:04 Sbrubbles wrote:
So, Lobber, have you actually lost with this build yet? I mean, when you execute perfectly and all.
Its hard to believe you've got a 100% win rate against Zerg (excluding games where you make mistakes, like the 3 you describe in the OP). Has no one found an answer yet, in a game against you? Can you post some replays of yourself losing, if those exist?
watch the replays he has lost in games... the more well known the strategy the more likely that people will counter even if done flawless. Also a few replays zergs were close to stopping but wasted units earlier on or they most likely would of stopped it.
Its deffiantly not unbeatable it just takes advantage that its non standard(as its not that common yet) and zergs panic which exactly what happens when a zerg does mutas harass to us:D
When this comes more standard it will be just another stategy that a zerg needs to be aware off and play different then the norm.
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Yesterday I was practicing this build against my friends, and many of them couldn't win even knowing the build was coming and meta-gaming it. One friend managed to beat me eventually with hydra-ling, but I don't expect that any zergs on ladder will really be doing that. Most at my level try to go heavy mass ling, but with good positioning and FF's, that can be beaten pretty handily.
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EPT
