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This is a build that I've made myself over awhile, it originally started with my just wanting to immortal drop post warpprism buff but it's turned into a 1 base build that has never actually... lost. In my replay pack of 32 I have I think 3 losses and all of them due to errors on my part. All my NA replays are vs high masters or GM on ladder, or a few tournament wins including vs a GM Korean Zerg on TSL (I believe their B team) And there's also several from KR ladder ranging from high diamond to mid masters. (using this build to rank up kr fast)
Replay pack yay: http://www.mediafire.com/?u1r8rkznnfkflza and extra incase one doesn't work [url blocked]
Basic build order:
CB probes non stop until 26 probes, then cut probes entirely. Also I don't scout or delay a scouting probe to about 4 minutes or so.
9 pylon (at ramp)
13 gate (at ramp)
14 assim
15 pylon (middle of base)
17 cyber (ramp)
18 zealot (hold pos wall in)
21-23 gas (or whenever there's drone in base that could gas steal)
23 pylon
warpgate (no cb)
stalker
~28 robotics facility(middle of base to deny scouting, should be or about to cut probes)
sentry after stalker done
32pylon
Immortal (from now on all CB on robo)
stalker as soon as sentry done
Waprrism as soon as immortal done
sentry when stalker done
As soon as the warprism pops you are going to load up 2 stalker and an immoral and start harassing, best targets are mineral lines, overlords, if he hasn't build units yet tech structures and queens, also keep in mind immortals can 1 or 2 hit spines that are just starting, and can 1 hit any creep tumor, also dropping in chokes you can kill a lot of lings, and immortals tear through low roach counts. You should never lose any units with your drop, there's no AA other than queens and warprisms are fast with high hp, and you can pick up either at low hp or shields gone.
Meanwhile at hope keep cbing immortals out and build up to 4 sentries than start stalker production, you should go to 3 gates soon after the warprism is finished and add a 4th gate when you can. When your 4th immortal pops send all your units to usually a watch tower or some point outside their base. Wall off your main with a pylon.
You should be leaving your base before 9:30 with 3 immortals 8 stalker 4 sentries and a zealot, and have a warprism with 2 stalker 1 immortal that can then warp in 4 units (usually stalkers). You should be attacking before 10:00 and have up to 12 FF ready to use on your 4 sentries. Keep warping in units and pick up and drop behind your immortals with your warprism. This army at this point in the game beats any zerg army they can have. With FFs and zealot warpins lings are easily dealt with, immortals rape roaches, hydras will be in incredibly small numbers and easy to FF, spines can be 1 or 2 hit with your army and with ff you can separate zerg armies and spines easily. Mutas will never come in time and never good enough to beat your stalker+sentry count. If they have an absurd number of spines just elevator into the main FFing it off for a free win, or get to the side where you're only engaging 2 or so spines at a time. If they try to counter attack you're fully walled off and can easily warp in units to hold.
The reason this works is because of the warpprism drop it forces out early units from the zerg so they can't drone til 9 minutes then pop units (or something like that) because they are forced to build units early, and because you're almost guaranteed 2+ ovie kills and others with the drop you're doing damage then hitting the zerg with one of the best and biggest possible armies at that time for a protoss. In the replay pack is ~8 games where it was me vs Z and about 10+ people obsing basically they'd try to beat me, I went 8-1 vs high masters purposely countering the build and the game I lost was pretty close and could have gone either way.
Losses, I only have 3 losses with this build where I do the attack with no real hindrance and still lose out of 40+ games.
One of these losses was vs a mid master on the KR ladder where he went mass spine ling queen (6+ transfuse 10+ spines and mass ling) and I tried to beat it head on and actually broke his spine wall before being over run with lings, at that point I was using an early rendition of the build, and I could have easily elevatored into his main and FF him out.
Another game was a ladder game on NA where I pushed about a minute late a warpin behind, so I had less and he had more and I didn't get a single good round of FFs and it was still close, easily winnable by me.
The third game was the last game of a practice group trying to hardcounter my build, he caught my army mid map and spread out with a ling attack and I lost quite a few units due to bad positioning, then it was ling roach spine vs my army and I was elevatoring into his main when I accidentally sent 3 immortals around through his natural where they died to lings, if not for that mistake I would have likely won.
So basically this build hasn't really lost and a lot of my stream viewers and people I play with have been asking me for a BO. I think I could do this build and win vs any level of zerg before and maybe even after they have experienced the build.
Edit: A lot of text, there could be a few errors or things that don't make sense, please point them out or ask about any so I can fix it.
2nd edit: I'll be streaming for awhile, if you want to see the build live I'll use it in all my PvZs for today. http://www.twitch.tv/alltheusernamesweretaken
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I'm interested in the concept. It sounds finely tuned.
Post some separate replays with descriptions. I don't need a replay pack. I'd rather see this build in action vs different responses. Especially if they have dealt with the drop harass well.
Extra 2-4 extra queens vs a one base protoss who is prism harassing early shuts it down and they're still ahead after dumping money into queens.
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On December 02 2011 09:41 JonnyLaw wrote:
I'm interested in the concept. It sounds finely tuned.
Post some separate replays with descriptions. I don't need a replay pack. I'd rather see this build in action vs different responses. Especially if they have dealt with the drop harass well.
Extra 2-4 extra queens vs a one base protoss who is prism harassing early shuts it down and they're still ahead after dumping money into queens.
By the time they have build 2-4 extra queens I'm already about to attack them with my whole army, the drop forces units but isn't very committal. And if their base is covered hard I can always go ovie hunting.
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Wouldn't it be better to go Immortal/Zealot? As stalker/immortal is countered obviously by mass speedling.
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This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
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On December 02 2011 09:49 schmutttt wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to go Immortal/Zealot? As stalker/immortal is countered obviously by mass speedling.
I have a lot of FFs available and I can always just warp in more zealots if I scout mass speedling with my drop harass, if I don't see any roach warren go up I sometimes switch it to 5 gate and zealot sentry to reinforce.
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On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
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On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
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On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
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On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
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On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
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On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Oh I understand it isn't used often anymore, I was merely mentioning it would counter it. Particularly because I've used that build a lot vs Zerg.
The reason you'd lose has nothing to do with lings engaging. It's because the 4 queen build hard counters any fast drop play, because the queens target the warp prism. You even try to engage with the units and you'll lose the prism. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, especially with transfuse, and if you're limited to three units the queen damage output would be large enough to even kill the units along with a few extra lings.
You don't need speed at this point.
Don't get me wrong, it seems incredibly strong, I just think that in particular would be a hard counter. I'm free to test if you want.
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was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
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On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Oh I understand it isn't used often anymore, I was merely mentioning it would counter it. Particularly because I've used that build a lot vs Zerg. The reason you'd lose has nothing to do with lings engaging. It's because the 4 queen build hard counters any fast drop play, because the queens target the warp prism. You even try to engage with the units and you'll lose the prism. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, especially with transfuse, and if you're limited to three units the queen damage output would be large enough to even kill the units along with a few extra lings. You don't need speed at this point. Don't get me wrong, it seems incredibly strong, I just think that in particular would be a hard counter. I'm free to test if you want.
But there's no way for the queens to hit the warpprism unless they are off creep, and if they are then they can't even hit the stalkers and immortals wit there like 0.0003 speed...
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On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote:
was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
I watched it too, but to be fair, Machine played awful and lost like a million ovies, and lost a ton of lings to nothing.
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On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote:
was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
:D his counter was one of the worse ones I've hit, he had like a couple dozen lings and 2 spines and that's it... ezez
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On December 02 2011 10:38 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote:
was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime :D his counter was one of the worse ones I've hit, he had like a couple dozen lings and 2 spines and that's it... ezez
no need to be rude about it. never said it was unbeatable. merely said you did it well once so i'm interested
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On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
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Really cool build. I've seen him do this about 3 times in the past hour and I haven't seen him lose yet. Insane! Keep it up Lobber.
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Lobber, I like the idea of this build... Im going to watch the replay pack tonight and have a go at it with some practice partners. I would suggest that Micro limitations would probably pose the biggest challenge in pulling this off. Do you consider your micro to be particularly good?
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EPT
