This is a build that I've made myself over awhile, it originally started with my just wanting to immortal drop post warpprism buff but it's turned into a 1 base build that has never actually... lost. In my replay pack of 32 I have I think 3 losses and all of them due to errors on my part. All my NA replays are vs high masters or GM on ladder, or a few tournament wins including vs a GM Korean Zerg on TSL (I believe their B team) And there's also several from KR ladder ranging from high diamond to mid masters. (using this build to rank up kr fast)
CB probes non stop until 26 probes, then cut probes entirely. Also I don't scout or delay a scouting probe to about 4 minutes or so.
9 pylon (at ramp) 13 gate (at ramp) 14 assim 15 pylon (middle of base) 17 cyber (ramp) 18 zealot (hold pos wall in) 21-23 gas (or whenever there's drone in base that could gas steal) 23 pylon warpgate (no cb) stalker ~28 robotics facility(middle of base to deny scouting, should be or about to cut probes) sentry after stalker done 32pylon Immortal (from now on all CB on robo) stalker as soon as sentry done Waprrism as soon as immortal done sentry when stalker done
As soon as the warprism pops you are going to load up 2 stalker and an immoral and start harassing, best targets are mineral lines, overlords, if he hasn't build units yet tech structures and queens, also keep in mind immortals can 1 or 2 hit spines that are just starting, and can 1 hit any creep tumor, also dropping in chokes you can kill a lot of lings, and immortals tear through low roach counts. You should never lose any units with your drop, there's no AA other than queens and warprisms are fast with high hp, and you can pick up either at low hp or shields gone.
Meanwhile at hope keep cbing immortals out and build up to 4 sentries than start stalker production, you should go to 3 gates soon after the warprism is finished and add a 4th gate when you can. When your 4th immortal pops send all your units to usually a watch tower or some point outside their base. Wall off your main with a pylon.
You should be leaving your base before 9:30 with 3 immortals 8 stalker 4 sentries and a zealot, and have a warprism with 2 stalker 1 immortal that can then warp in 4 units (usually stalkers). You should be attacking before 10:00 and have up to 12 FF ready to use on your 4 sentries. Keep warping in units and pick up and drop behind your immortals with your warprism. This army at this point in the game beats any zerg army they can have. With FFs and zealot warpins lings are easily dealt with, immortals rape roaches, hydras will be in incredibly small numbers and easy to FF, spines can be 1 or 2 hit with your army and with ff you can separate zerg armies and spines easily. Mutas will never come in time and never good enough to beat your stalker+sentry count. If they have an absurd number of spines just elevator into the main FFing it off for a free win, or get to the side where you're only engaging 2 or so spines at a time. If they try to counter attack you're fully walled off and can easily warp in units to hold.
The reason this works is because of the warpprism drop it forces out early units from the zerg so they can't drone til 9 minutes then pop units (or something like that) because they are forced to build units early, and because you're almost guaranteed 2+ ovie kills and others with the drop you're doing damage then hitting the zerg with one of the best and biggest possible armies at that time for a protoss. In the replay pack is ~8 games where it was me vs Z and about 10+ people obsing basically they'd try to beat me, I went 8-1 vs high masters purposely countering the build and the game I lost was pretty close and could have gone either way.
Losses, I only have 3 losses with this build where I do the attack with no real hindrance and still lose out of 40+ games.
One of these losses was vs a mid master on the KR ladder where he went mass spine ling queen (6+ transfuse 10+ spines and mass ling) and I tried to beat it head on and actually broke his spine wall before being over run with lings, at that point I was using an early rendition of the build, and I could have easily elevatored into his main and FF him out.
Another game was a ladder game on NA where I pushed about a minute late a warpin behind, so I had less and he had more and I didn't get a single good round of FFs and it was still close, easily winnable by me.
The third game was the last game of a practice group trying to hardcounter my build, he caught my army mid map and spread out with a ling attack and I lost quite a few units due to bad positioning, then it was ling roach spine vs my army and I was elevatoring into his main when I accidentally sent 3 immortals around through his natural where they died to lings, if not for that mistake I would have likely won.
So basically this build hasn't really lost and a lot of my stream viewers and people I play with have been asking me for a BO. I think I could do this build and win vs any level of zerg before and maybe even after they have experienced the build.
Edit: A lot of text, there could be a few errors or things that don't make sense, please point them out or ask about any so I can fix it.
I'm interested in the concept. It sounds finely tuned.
Post some separate replays with descriptions. I don't need a replay pack. I'd rather see this build in action vs different responses. Especially if they have dealt with the drop harass well.
Extra 2-4 extra queens vs a one base protoss who is prism harassing early shuts it down and they're still ahead after dumping money into queens.
On December 02 2011 09:41 JonnyLaw wrote: I'm interested in the concept. It sounds finely tuned.
Post some separate replays with descriptions. I don't need a replay pack. I'd rather see this build in action vs different responses. Especially if they have dealt with the drop harass well.
Extra 2-4 extra queens vs a one base protoss who is prism harassing early shuts it down and they're still ahead after dumping money into queens.
By the time they have build 2-4 extra queens I'm already about to attack them with my whole army, the drop forces units but isn't very committal. And if their base is covered hard I can always go ovie hunting.
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
On December 02 2011 09:49 schmutttt wrote: Wouldn't it be better to go Immortal/Zealot? As stalker/immortal is countered obviously by mass speedling.
I have a lot of FFs available and I can always just warp in more zealots if I scout mass speedling with my drop harass, if I don't see any roach warren go up I sometimes switch it to 5 gate and zealot sentry to reinforce.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Oh I understand it isn't used often anymore, I was merely mentioning it would counter it. Particularly because I've used that build a lot vs Zerg.
The reason you'd lose has nothing to do with lings engaging. It's because the 4 queen build hard counters any fast drop play, because the queens target the warp prism. You even try to engage with the units and you'll lose the prism. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, especially with transfuse, and if you're limited to three units the queen damage output would be large enough to even kill the units along with a few extra lings.
You don't need speed at this point.
Don't get me wrong, it seems incredibly strong, I just think that in particular would be a hard counter. I'm free to test if you want.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Oh I understand it isn't used often anymore, I was merely mentioning it would counter it. Particularly because I've used that build a lot vs Zerg.
The reason you'd lose has nothing to do with lings engaging. It's because the 4 queen build hard counters any fast drop play, because the queens target the warp prism. You even try to engage with the units and you'll lose the prism. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, especially with transfuse, and if you're limited to three units the queen damage output would be large enough to even kill the units along with a few extra lings.
You don't need speed at this point.
Don't get me wrong, it seems incredibly strong, I just think that in particular would be a hard counter. I'm free to test if you want.
But there's no way for the queens to hit the warpprism unless they are off creep, and if they are then they can't even hit the stalkers and immortals wit there like 0.0003 speed...
On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote: was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
I watched it too, but to be fair, Machine played awful and lost like a million ovies, and lost a ton of lings to nothing.
On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote: was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
:D his counter was one of the worse ones I've hit, he had like a couple dozen lings and 2 spines and that's it... ezez
On December 02 2011 10:33 RyanRushia wrote: was skeptical til i saw him just beat EG.Machine pretty hard with it. pretty good strat. will try it out sometime
:D his counter was one of the worse ones I've hit, he had like a couple dozen lings and 2 spines and that's it... ezez
no need to be rude about it. never said it was unbeatable. merely said you did it well once so i'm interested
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Lobber, I like the idea of this build... Im going to watch the replay pack tonight and have a go at it with some practice partners. I would suggest that Micro limitations would probably pose the biggest challenge in pulling this off. Do you consider your micro to be particularly good?
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
The anchor to this build is the warp prism. If you see a P stay on 1 base for so long, I think making non stop queens isn't a bad choice. The standard 1 base all-ins from toss are dts, stargate or 4gate. So having extra queens helps out in each situation.
Also, with range 7 against air, the 4 or so queens can deter warp prisms.
When I saw the post title, my first thought was, oh shit, that sounds like the build Lobber used against me! Lo and behold, here you are..
If you guys have any doubts about this build being buff as hell, take it from a zerg on the receiving end... Even scouted, it's still unbelievably strong.
On December 02 2011 10:46 Jackal888 wrote: Lobber, I like the idea of this build... Im going to watch the replay pack tonight and have a go at it with some practice partners. I would suggest that Micro limitations would probably pose the biggest challenge in pulling this off. Do you consider your micro to be particularly good?
Not amazing but good, ffs and knowing which units to do what with is troublesome sometimes but at higher and higher levels the build gets more in favor of protoss because micro makes it better for P and Z.
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
I used a similar build extensively against zergs before the warp prism buff, when it was often too weak and could get focused down by Queens. I haven't done it recently since I have a new FFE build that focuses on taking a quick fourth expand that I am working on.
Here's my experience:
Do not block him from expanding; if you manage to block the expo you should have FFE'd. Instead of going gate-core-gate-robo, go gate-core-robo. and build 2 zealots and a stalker. Send the 2 zealots out ahead timed so that they will be 1/2 way to his base when your stalker catches up with them. Try and kill his queen or at least force zerglings to be built.
Chrono out the warp prism as your first unit from the robo, rallied to pick up your zealots and stalkers, while you expand at home and build 3 more gateways and start pumping immortals and sentries. If you time it right you will pick them up just as they are surrounded by zerglings and losing their shields. Fly the prism around between their main and expo, but come back home to protect your expo if they continue to pump units.
This does serious economic damage while nearly guaranteeing your natural goes up, if it turns out he didn't drone and just pumped units so he can deny your expo, you cancel a gateway and nexus and 3 gate robo push for the win.
Heya Lobber, very interesting build! I've been experimenting with 1 base robo plays for a very long while now, and I've refined a build with a very similar concept: harass with a warp prism to force units out rather than allowing the zerg to freely drone and then ultimately push out with some form of a death ball several minutes later. But rather than doing a 3 immortal push at the 10 minute mark, I push out with 2-3 colossus at the 12 minute mark.
On December 02 2011 11:58 Natengall wrote: Heya Lobber, very interesting build! I've been experimenting with 1 base robo plays for a very long while now, and I've refined a build with a very similar concept: harass with a warp prism to force units out rather than allowing the zerg to freely drone and then ultimately push out with some form of a death ball several minutes later. But rather than doing a 3 immortal push at the 10 minute mark, I push out with 2-3 colossus at the 12 minute mark.
I have a similar build where I open gas first and same thing, warprism harass into 3 colossus (with range) leaving my base at ~10 minutes with 4 gate backing it up with the warp prism.
Also have a like 80% winrate with that one vs GMs...
On December 02 2011 12:51 CuHz wrote: ive seen this build in action; works pretty well.
I do know the answer to this build but i don't think i will give it out until I'm bored using this strat =D
I ran through 5 games with zoohairs trying to counter it knowing it's coming, after the 4th game he can counter it more or less, there's about a 5 second window where I can win, if I don't hit it, or the maps to big I lose, if not I can win...
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
only one question: the reason to delay scout by so much or just gave up on scouting dont that makes you outright lost to pool before 10 sometimes 10 pool(if smaller map and got scout fast) which i found very common on mid-dia KR ladder
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
The immortal timing in itself is surprisingly strong. I always open with extra queens, but I think the biggest thing for me when scouting 1 gate robo would be wondering if it's going to be this immortal play, or colossus play, or even somehow a 2gate robo expo.
this build is actually sick, i ran it in a few practice matches against masters zergs and it basically crushed them with ease even if they scout it or know its coming its still seems pretty unstoppable
I am using a similar build where I open forge at the bottom of my ramp, make a wall there with Gateway and Cyber and go straight into 2 Immortals with Warpprism with Zealot/Sentry +1 Support and expand to my natural (covered by the already established wall) while attacking. Although the +1 (and the possibility to cannon-rush) imho is a worth the delay of the Gateway the Attack gets overwhelmed more often than not because Zerg can drone on 2 Base for so long. I never considered drop-harassment after just one Immortal and actually Prism after first Immortals fits in much better than 2nd Immortal. Going to try incorperating this into my Build. Thx! :D
people seem to forget this build is NON STANDARD, thats another reason it catches a lot of zergs of guard. As they dont know whats going on, what no FFE? or 3 gate sentry expand??? :D Going to try this myself PvZ is my worst matchup and if this works at Masters etc level the it should help bolster me to high dimaond whilei get to grips with it:D
Any chance of posting some replays? Would like to see what you do, especially when they go muta.
It's a strong 1-base all-in that people still have to figure out, that's way it is sucessful I guess. But don't get me wrong, I appreciate every new style and concept to diversify the gameplay. Thanks for sharing your work.
On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote: [quote] Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
The immortal timing in itself is surprisingly strong. I always open with extra queens, but I think the biggest thing for me when scouting 1 gate robo would be wondering if it's going to be this immortal play, or colossus play, or even somehow a 2gate robo expo.
yeh thats great theory crafting but what zerg keeps all 4 queens together? Also wouldnt when this comes, 2 will be injecting lava and im presuming another 2 may be dropping tumours and you may also have only one or two transfuses unless you see this coming and have saved them up. Also wouldnt you then focus the queen with most mana so perhaps others may get one off. If you know this is coming at the start of the game its easy to say yeh 4 queens stop this, but in game, it can be quite differnet. Again im theory crafting just like you are, but shitting on a build which before injects and dropping tumers you may not actually see it till he has dropped and already focusing one fo thw two queens in your main. Im only going on the drop part. as immortals do quite well, also you have the choice of warp prism into phase mode and warp in 4 zeals to target the queens.. again im theory crafting same as you :D
Since we are on TL, I guess I should go with: "this won't work vs. blah blah bloop build no one does, so it is bad". Honestly this looks really cool and really unique. The warp prism harass must be a real micro battle and important to take advantage of but for masters that shouldn't be a problem. I can't really be bothered going to the hassle of downloading a replay pack, individuals or youtube or something would be handy. Overall really cool build and very unique, I haven't seen anything that similar.
Watches about 10 replays and im impressed! I mean, it's really strong since many wont know how to react proper to it. It forces a reaction which would probably be really early hydras or something like that.. I'm gonna try it tonight and see how i like it. I love macro games, but doing it vs Zerg is really hard so been trying around with different pressure tactics, this might work!
This build looks really strong, I haven't run into it before my self on the ladder but it looks like a very strong build and one that is great to pull out in a boX situation. IT looks like it would be difficult to execute properly.
Saw Lobber use it against Machine in the Playhem Daily yesterday. Machine had no clue what was going on when he tried to scout. He guessed warp prisms but he couldnt hold the push. Machine said after the game he lost due to not droning enough. It looked like a really unique and strong build. Worth a try for sure.
Watched most of the replays now. By reading your description of the build I assumed your Drop has a massive influence on the gameflow but it turned out that (unless Close-Air) by the time it reaches the opponents base (~8:00) most Zergs already have some Units out anyways. So the damage Zerg takes from Prism-Harass depends mostly on his own faults or overreaction. Like others said, more Queens seems the way to go, especially because they are useful against all 1 Base Builds anyways. Nevertheless Prism-Harass was able to create up to 1000 Ressources of Eco damage and therefore is a great way to extend the purpose of P's early Units.
I think with proper execution, incorperating the lowground forge makes this way better. The pushes reach Z that late, even +1/+1 could be finished by then, greatly enhancing their strength. In addition P is completly safe against early Pools, has the Ability to Cannon-Rush Z's Natural and a possible Transition by expanding next the the already established wall (the point I dislike the most about your build).
2nd Warpprism might be a useful addition, allowing for more Immortal Micro and the ability to warp in single zealots into an exposed mineral-line and picking up more units in case the push gets overwhelmed.
One of the most interesting all in you have come out with. I have been having a lot of troubles in my PvZ lately and in GM. Will be testing this strategy intensively. Watch some of the replays and I'm really impressed. This kinda reminds me of the infamous 1-1-1 where you know its coming and still die to it. I will be looking into this.
Lobber, if you were to make this build not all in and wanted to go into a macro game, what modifications would you do in order to secure more bases while still beating the snot out of the zerg's economy early game?
On December 03 2011 01:55 Mikelius wrote: Lobber, if you were to make this build not all in and wanted to go into a macro game, what modifications would you do in order to secure more bases while still beating the snot out of the zerg's economy early game?
lol. the whole point of the build is that its a strong 1 base allin. if you don't cause incredible damage (kill nat, half drones) then you might be fucked. you just tech if they're able to go muta or hydra.
4+ queens is so underused in ZvP... This is a very powerful 1 base all in that definitely catches Zergs off guard. I think the answer is losing very little to the WP harass, then going mass ling mass spine while teching to muta (to prevent toss from expanding after/if you hold the all in.
all i see in those replays is that you opponents are bad at adapting at what they scout, i mean like 1 protoss base play for over 8-9 mins and during the army engagement you have like 50% or even 100% more Army value is ridiculous bad imho...
On December 02 2011 21:40 Tommylew wrote: people seem to forget this build is NON STANDARD, thats another reason it catches a lot of zergs of guard. As they dont know whats going on, what no FFE? or 3 gate sentry expand??? :D Going to try this myself PvZ is my worst matchup and if this works at Masters etc level the it should help bolster me to high dimaond whilei get to grips with it:D
Any chance of posting some replays? Would like to see what you do, especially when they go muta.
It actually doesn't matter if its standard or not. I use a similar build as one of my PvZ builds, and I play masters level Z players on my friends who say its one of the most annoying things to deal with in my arsenal.
On December 03 2011 04:04 freetgy wrote: all i see in those replays is that you opponents are bad at adapting at what they scout, i mean like 1 protoss base play for over 8-9 mins and during the army engagement you have like 50% or even 100% more Army value is ridiculous bad imho...
It's a lot easier to say a player is "bad" when watching a replay. I'd like to see you take down GM/Pro players like EG.Machine yourself. This build is a great build and fits perfectly into the current PvZ metagame of FFE on nearly every single map. I do believe that it will be figured out soon, but until it is widely used on the ladder, it will probably be an abusive strategy to farm wins with.
I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this.. If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism.
lol, I love you for this guide. PvZ is such a nightmare, so far I'm just testing it out and already 4/4 wins.
And for the comments about spine walls...they are a joke. If you focus fire them with the stalker/immortal group they die almost instantly and you can usually FF the zergs force behind them.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
On December 03 2011 06:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this.. If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism.
You hit with 4 immortals, a lot of stalkers, a shit load of sentries with several forcefields available and you can warp-in 4 zealots at a time if you see alot of lings. Roaches die so quickly to the immortals, and so do spine crawlers. Lings are pretty much useless against so many force-fields.
On December 03 2011 06:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this.. If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism.
You hit with 4 immortals, a lot of stalkers, a shit load of sentries with several forcefields available and you can warp-in 4 zealots at a time if you see alot of lings. Roaches die so quickly to the immortals, and so do spine crawlers. Lings are pretty much useless against so many force-fields.
Markwerf is actually right. In the long run this build creates just another Timing Zergs have to figure out. In essence its a 4 Gate with 4 Immortals and a Prism that hits ~ 4 Minutes later and has some harassment at 7-8 Minutes. If you engage open field with roach ling and he places FF to shield his Army Z can simply run away and wait for the FF to expire and Stalker/Sentry/Immo without Upgrades and FF against Roach/Ling is quite crap. Dont get me wrong, its very strong and not gimmicky at all, but unless a transition is incorperated its just a 111-like Build to steal wins and metagaming Zergs into less greedy builds.
On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote: [quote] Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
Well, most zergs have 3 queens on 2 bases, and some get another one to make it more harass resistant. Not to mention that, when we see the lack of an expansion at 6:30, we stop droning and scout the shit out of your base. We just know that you're doing something unusual, so we preprare for voids, DTs, or a 4 gate. Which, as zerg, is by no means out of our way. And the prism will be rendered ineffective for warps by the queens, and if it unloads, then you're relying on the idea of your sentries never running out of mana. We just have to pull drones for a second, then your FF wears off and we stop the harass with minimal lost mining time.I'm not saying it's easy to do that, and you'll probably win most of your games in plat and below with this, but it's basically just a 1/1/1 for PvZ beyond that.
This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNw
oh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
getting a Robo on 1 base gives it away usually when scouted. Every protoss has been trying this 1 base robo build recently with high immortal count.
Doesn't work vs Ling/Bane/Roach into ling/bane/Hydra + spines.
If your doing stalker/Immortal, thats even worse since lings can destroy this easily. Heavy zealot works better, but only if there isn't a baneling nest.
On December 04 2011 03:55 BroboCop wrote: This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNw
oh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
Not sure what the point of your post is.
To safe others from wasting their time: In this replay the Z gets early lings into lobbers base, which delays everything and the final engagements happens with a way different army than described here (loads of sentries, few stalkers).
sorry i'm new to the thread. so this is essentially a 4-gate robo??..
i'll be watching some of the replays during NASL i suppose
*edit* so which were your losses in the replay pack ?
*edit2* so after viewing 7 or so replays, i went and did this to a friend who wanted to play with me.
he commented after the game that he was expecting either DT or voidrays or expecting something cheesy (read:warp-prism as i purposely sent it through watchtower vision) since it was just some 1-base. he did well in droning to 40, but started zergling speed late and to my luck i managed to grab the spawning pool just as it was about to finish.
he was floating 1.5k mins with roach tech, two spines and 4 or so queens, and still managed to churn out about 10 roaches before all of that. i killed quite a lot through the initial drop since he was preparing for stargate and dt specifically when he missed seeing my prism halfway across the map.
i have no doubt it'd normally get crushed by good macro, less compensation for the fact that it's a 1-base-something (since he didn't overlord scout), and heavy roach as the warp-prism is dealt with. i felt that the first drop that happens is not very scary, and over-valuing it (from observing your replays on KR server) is what brings the zerg's response to be slow enough that they can't hold.
i think if the zerg sacs his natural and runs his drones in time, keeps any units intact before engaging the army, he would actually still be ahead if he were droning and not busy worrying about some 1-base cheese.
the idea of the warp-prism being the unassailable pylon makes it harder to hold off than a normal 4-gate. then again, what are the normal indicators that a protoss is 4-gating?
the drop gives zerg a chance to accumulate queens to transfuse. roach burrow is not really a normal option but would potentially stop the first push.
that said, i feel your strategy is akin to a more complicated 4-gate but is easier to execute to good effect because of how unexpected the warp-prism is, how strong immortals are, the fact that it is a 1-base play, and that the warp-prism provides vision for attacking up ramps and so on.
On December 04 2011 03:55 BroboCop wrote: This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNw
oh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
Not sure what the point of your post is.
To safe others from wasting their time: In this replay the Z gets early lings into lobbers base, which delays everything and the final engagements happens with a way different army than described here (loads of sentries, few stalkers).
my point is he boasts about the build when he beats a player like violet while not explaining/providing replays where it gets utterly stomped (fails) because when its obvious he will do some 1base trash AND because of his lack of scouting he can lose to anything. The build is extremely blind and expects a zerg to do? what? i'm not sure. any form of early aggression whether it be cheese or not will stomp this build. the lack of information he is sacrificing for 35-40minerals/min (for the worker) is unfathomable.
On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote: [quote] Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
Yes? I played vs it and am fully aware. It's a very strong all-in. I was just commenting on counters. The 4-queen build has actually far MORE time to prepare for the harass than I anticipated, however, it's the actual all-in attack that's hardest to stop.
On December 04 2011 04:21 Keyz1 wrote: getting a Robo on 1 base gives it away usually when scouted. Every protoss has been trying this 1 base robo build recently with high immortal count.
Doesn't work vs Ling/Bane/Roach into ling/bane/Hydra + spines.
If your doing stalker/Immortal, thats even worse since lings can destroy this easily. Heavy zealot works better, but only if there isn't a baneling nest.
Completely wrong.... ling/bane/roach would get stomped.
On December 04 2011 05:46 BlackBurn wrote: Before telling that this doesn't work against mass ling or stuff like that, why don't you just watch the replay pack?
the problem with some of the the games from KR server is.. they run the lings into the army automatically and without a flank, haha. diamond league
Very cool build. Seems to induce a lot of RAGE as well. Do you think doing the same opening (2stalker 1 immortal drop) but then expanding behind it with sentries/natural wall would be viable?
On December 04 2011 06:15 Drowsy wrote: Very cool build. Seems to induce a lot of RAGE as well. Do you think doing the same opening (2stalker 1 immortal drop) but then expanding behind it with sentries/natural wall would be viable?
That would defeat the purpose of the build. 1 gate robo expand wouldn't be able to constantly churn out units well to defend a ling allin, as Immortals are 250/100 or something high like that.
It is possible to expand behind a 2 zealot + stalker + warp prism drop, however. by the time the harass is done, you're on 3 WG + robo, have 2-3 immortals and a nexus. if they don't keep their lings in their base you just kill their drones and hide up your ramp and cancel the nexus, then you're 3 gate robo against a one base zerg, ezpz
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
I'm pretty sure queens are armored. So stalkers should do 14 dmg, and Immortals do 50. I remember this because, in some circumstances, I like using immortals to take out queens and spore crawlers so void rays can clean up. :-)
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
I'm pretty sure queens are armored. So stalkers should do 14 dmg, and Immortals do 50. I remember this because, in some circumstances, I like using immortals to take out queens and spore crawlers so void rays can clean up. :-)
Hey lobber next time you upload replays of games of your :"unbeatable" builds could you not upload a huge file full of backwards ass idiot zergs that don't manage to scout that you haven't dropped a pylon on the low ground at any point, hence not stopping drone at 30 and just non stop massing roach ling till you either expand or attack.
Otherwise I think all you have to do is 1) recognise no expansion 2)proceed with a normal evo vs dt/stargate timing, drop maybe 2 spores 3)cut drones at maybe 30 and pump lings and roaches 4) creep spread should let you stay hatch tech so you don't need speed for roaches, engage at the end of your creep with spread units so lobbers forcefields will be spread out rather than "box of pain", retreat immediately. If he expands be ready to kill.
Maybe you disagree lobber, but if this werent the counter then your build would need nerfing. you can't tell someone they have to rush hydras or something like that.
Edit: Otherwise a fantastic build man. it's good to know you have the ability to innovate. But still lots of zergs -> huurr I drone, his not attacking me I make drone, he hasn't taken a base.... drone... drone drone drone drone qqKACHU.
On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote: [quote] Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
I'm pretty sure queens are armored. So stalkers should do 14 dmg, and Immortals do 50. I remember this because, in some circumstances, I like using immortals to take out queens and spore crawlers so void rays can clean up. :-)
Queens have no armour class.
I'll be dammed! :D You're right! Did they used to be armored or something? I thought for sure they were!
On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote: [quote]
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
I'm pretty sure queens are armored. So stalkers should do 14 dmg, and Immortals do 50. I remember this because, in some circumstances, I like using immortals to take out queens and spore crawlers so void rays can clean up. :-)
Queens have no armour class.
I'll be dammed! :D You're right! Did they used to be armored or something? I thought for sure they were!
No. If they were, void rays would demolish queens.
On December 04 2011 22:22 Bananasword01 wrote: Queens are not armoured. they are pysoinic.
Hey lobber next time you upload replays of games of your :"unbeatable" builds could you not upload a huge file full of backwards ass idiot zergs that don't manage to scout that you haven't dropped a pylon on the low ground at any point, hence not stopping drone at 30 and just non stop massing roach ling till you either expand or attack.
Otherwise I think all you have to do is 1) recognise no expansion 2)proceed with a normal evo vs dt/stargate timing, drop maybe 2 spores 3)cut drones at maybe 30 and pump lings and roaches 4) creep spread should let you stay hatch tech so you don't need speed for roaches, engage at the end of your creep with spread units so lobbers forcefields will be spread out rather than "box of pain", retreat immediately. If he expands be ready to kill.
Maybe you disagree lobber, but if this werent the counter then your build would need nerfing. you can't tell someone they have to rush hydras or something like that.
Edit: Otherwise a fantastic build man. it's good to know you have the ability to innovate. But still lots of zergs -> huurr I drone, his not attacking me I make drone, he hasn't taken a base.... drone... drone drone drone drone qqKACHU.
If you stop drones at 30 then you won't get ahead. Mass Hydra off of 2 bases would be the counter I feel.
On December 04 2011 22:22 Bananasword01 wrote: Queens are not armoured. they are pysoinic.
Hey lobber next time you upload replays of games of your :"unbeatable" builds could you not upload a huge file full of backwards ass idiot zergs that don't manage to scout that you haven't dropped a pylon on the low ground at any point, hence not stopping drone at 30 and just non stop massing roach ling till you either expand or attack.
Otherwise I think all you have to do is 1) recognise no expansion 2)proceed with a normal evo vs dt/stargate timing, drop maybe 2 spores 3)cut drones at maybe 30 and pump lings and roaches 4) creep spread should let you stay hatch tech so you don't need speed for roaches, engage at the end of your creep with spread units so lobbers forcefields will be spread out rather than "box of pain", retreat immediately. If he expands be ready to kill.
Maybe you disagree lobber, but if this werent the counter then your build would need nerfing. you can't tell someone they have to rush hydras or something like that.
Edit: Otherwise a fantastic build man. it's good to know you have the ability to innovate. But still lots of zergs -> huurr I drone, his not attacking me I make drone, he hasn't taken a base.... drone... drone drone drone drone qqKACHU.
If you stop drones at 30 then you won't get ahead. Mass Hydra off of 2 bases would be the counter I feel.
Stopping drones at 30 would be completely fine. You just need to have your second base up.
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
It's all-in, don't bother with an expansion.
The only time you could possibly go for an expansion with this build, is if you feel you've reached the 'limit' on the amount of damage you can do.
It would be a pretty small amount of scenarios where you've done enough damage to be able to 'transition' into an expansion, but not enough to make him lose the game outright.
You attack at around 10 minutes-ish. Muta's can come at 9 minutes. Seem's like a coinflip build to me. You have no where near enough stalkers to take on 15 mutalisks. Also, zerglings + mutalisks will destroy everything you had including the warp prism.
Do you know which replay has you facing mutalisks?
On December 05 2011 10:12 Kluey wrote: You attack at around 10 minutes-ish. Muta's can come at 9 minutes. Seem's like a coinflip build to me. You have no where near enough stalkers to take on 15 mutalisks. Also, zerglings + mutalisks will destroy everything you had including the warp prism.
Do you know which replay has you facing mutalisks?
You have a warp prism harassing, enabling you to avoid spines. Getting a decent number of muta at 9 minutes without taking much damage from the harassment before hand would be pretty impressive.
A large part of the build relies on forcing the zerg to deal with harassment before the push.
On December 05 2011 10:12 Kluey wrote: You attack at around 10 minutes-ish. Muta's can come at 9 minutes. Seem's like a coinflip build to me. You have no where near enough stalkers to take on 15 mutalisks. Also, zerglings + mutalisks will destroy everything you had including the warp prism.
Do you know which replay has you facing mutalisks?
15 mutas? Thats not possible... Maybe 7-8... You tend to go stalker/sentry heavy and warp in zealots IF your opponent has lings, if not go stalkers.. Mutas wouldn't hold this unless they can snipe your warp prism while not taking damage...
On December 05 2011 10:12 Kluey wrote: You attack at around 10 minutes-ish. Muta's can come at 9 minutes. Seem's like a coinflip build to me. You have no where near enough stalkers to take on 15 mutalisks. Also, zerglings + mutalisks will destroy everything you had including the warp prism.
Do you know which replay has you facing mutalisks?
Who techs straight to muta vs a 1 base protoss, saving up 1.5k/1.5k. Wtf?
I've learned the build and used it on ladder, It's unstoppable lol The only time I lose, is when I lose prism haha,i have you added as real ID friend idk if you know me my b net is LegitQuinn lol
On December 04 2011 03:55 BroboCop wrote: This build is great as you can see in this replay here is lobber executing it amazingly. You can find it on Lobber's stream from the wednesday playhem. http://replayfu.com/r/LGLNw
oh and i have a 200 point bonus pool for anyone curious.
Not sure what the point of your post is.
To safe others from wasting their time: In this replay the Z gets early lings into lobbers base, which delays everything and the final engagements happens with a way different army than described here (loads of sentries, few stalkers).
my point is he boasts about the build when he beats a player like violet while not explaining/providing replays where it gets utterly stomped (fails) because when its obvious he will do some 1base trash AND because of his lack of scouting he can lose to anything. The build is extremely blind and expects a zerg to do? what? i'm not sure. any form of early aggression whether it be cheese or not will stomp this build. the lack of information he is sacrificing for 35-40minerals/min (for the worker) is unfathomable.
I've only ever lost with it 5 times, 3+ of them it was vs people who I was getting to purposely try to hardcounter the build. I wouldn't count taking massive damage from lings early game and just being really behind a lose, however, if you include every game where something like that happened I would have lost 6 games total, the previous 5 and 1 extra loss in that game.
On December 04 2011 22:22 Bananasword01 wrote: Queens are not armoured. they are pysoinic.
Hey lobber next time you upload replays of games of your :"unbeatable" builds could you not upload a huge file full of backwards ass idiot zergs that don't manage to scout that you haven't dropped a pylon on the low ground at any point, hence not stopping drone at 30 and just non stop massing roach ling till you either expand or attack.
Otherwise I think all you have to do is 1) recognise no expansion 2)proceed with a normal evo vs dt/stargate timing, drop maybe 2 spores 3)cut drones at maybe 30 and pump lings and roaches 4) creep spread should let you stay hatch tech so you don't need speed for roaches, engage at the end of your creep with spread units so lobbers forcefields will be spread out rather than "box of pain", retreat immediately. If he expands be ready to kill.
Maybe you disagree lobber, but if this werent the counter then your build would need nerfing. you can't tell someone they have to rush hydras or something like that.
Edit: Otherwise a fantastic build man. it's good to know you have the ability to innovate. But still lots of zergs -> huurr I drone, his not attacking me I make drone, he hasn't taken a base.... drone... drone drone drone drone qqKACHU.
I've on stream beaten EGMachine, Violet, and several other GM and top 100 masters level zergs... Also it's impossible imo to stop without hydras assuming P micros properly.
On December 05 2011 10:12 Kluey wrote: You attack at around 10 minutes-ish. Muta's can come at 9 minutes. Seem's like a coinflip build to me. You have no where near enough stalkers to take on 15 mutalisks. Also, zerglings + mutalisks will destroy everything you had including the warp prism.
Do you know which replay has you facing mutalisks?
No Z build has any mutas popping at 9 minutes and still allows them to deal with my warp prism harass, yes a zerg can pop 5-8 mutas at about 9:30, just in time for my to be killing their natural. Mutas are an auto loss imo, the lings of the ling muta would be MUCH more effective than the mutas themselves.
I did lose, but I can see how I can adapt to this build easily. Just build more queens when I see the warp prism and the late expo and spend my minerals better and perhaps build some spines to delay some more I can easily hold it off.
I can see how people that don't have great injects and gamesense can lose to this though. And I'm sure you platinum protoss' will have a great time obliterating Zergs until they catch on .
Early mass zergling has stopped me from having a 100% win rate. I did play 2 people twice in a row each, and it worked both times against one of them, and the other guy stopped me pretty handily. I know I shouldn't try to just do the exact same thing against every zerg, especially ones that have seen the strat, but I wanted to see what they could do to stop it.
By the time my warp prism was ready to harass, the zerg had 20+ zerglings with speed available to dart from base to base, so there was no possible early harrassment for me. I still attempted to do the all-in when all of my units were ready, and managed to kill his nat after force fielding all of his zerglings in his main. I ended up losing a bunch of those units due to a flubbed force field, so I guess its not necessarily mass zergling that will stop this. I still don't know how the game would've played out if I hadn't lost most of my units, He had taken a third around the time I killed his nat and was retreating. I mean, I guess after that, assuming I hadn't lost a bunch of stuff, I could've warped in a bazillion zealots asap to try and take him on, but I'm still not sure.
Anyways, he went for mutas after that, and it turned into a base race which I lost.
Edit: Also, by the time my push came, he had probably more than 40 zerglings.
On December 05 2011 19:45 ppterodactyl wrote: Early mass zergling has stopped me from having a 100% win rate. I did play 2 people twice in a row each, and it worked both times against one of them, and the other guy stopped me pretty handily. I know I shouldn't try to just do the exact same thing against every zerg, especially ones that have seen the strat, but I wanted to see what they could do to stop it.
By the time my warp prism was ready to harass, the zerg had 20+ zerglings with speed available to dart from base to base, so there was no possible early harrassment for me. I still attempted to do the all-in when all of my units were ready, and managed to kill his nat after force fielding all of his zerglings in his main. I ended up losing a bunch of those units due to a flubbed force field, so I guess its not necessarily mass zergling that will stop this. I still don't know how the game would've played out if I hadn't lost most of my units, He had taken a third around the time I killed his nat and was retreating. I mean, I guess after that, assuming I hadn't lost a bunch of stuff, I could've warped in a bazillion zealots asap to try and take him on, but I'm still not sure.
Anyways, he went for mutas after that, and it turned into a base race which I lost.
Edit: Also, by the time my push came, he had probably more than 40 zerglings.
If you scout no roaches or roach warren with your warp prism warp in a round of zealots before you actually make your push, helps wonders vs lings builds, but 60 lings should barely do any damage to your army assuming you have decent force-fields...
On December 05 2011 18:15 Lobber wrote: I've on stream beaten EGMachine, Violet, and several other GM and top 100 masters level zergs... Also it's impossible imo to stop without hydras assuming P micros properly.
Give it time, it's a simple fact of zerg and zerg pros that they'll have trouble with something new because their insatiable drone lust causes them to never take the "first mover " advantage. So a new build can let anybody beat "top tier" zerg pro's.
Case in point, though different mu, destiny beating bomber... although destiny won macro games so he maintains fair bit of cred.
Don't say something is impossible, simplifying the game down to mere unit counters is stupid. Though it works in your favor cause if zergs now tried to hardcounter your push you can just take an expo behind and ultra fast collosus with the robo already up gg ( hence why I don't trust your analysis).
Interestingly, I've done a similar build many months ago. But at that time we didn't have the +1 range on immortals and the better prism, and I lost a bit too often to mass lings to my taste. Also I was warping a lot of zealots initially, so when Zerg went for fast mutas it was too late for stalkers. But I'll try your version now, it seems even more powerful, thanks !
I LOVE this build :D. Learning to use the WP effectively and winning as well is awesome lol. I have won 10 straight when I first was trying this build out. Definitely modify it based on what units the zerg has out or will be getting out. ie lings - more zealots, Roaches - more stalkers all while creating immortals :D Works wonders. Thanks Lobber !!
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
Sometimes im amused here. It's a 4 gate + Robo build, it's total all in. And you have loads of money floating couse you arent good enough to spend chronos + manage warpins while pushing.
I've been doing this build a lot because it's really fun, probably have a 70-75 percent win-rate with it vs GM / high masters players. It's definitely quite stoppable and as its popularity increases Zergs will learn to stop playing like idiots versus it I think
It is quite satisfying the amount of rage it can induce though, practically gave Zilea an aneurism.
You mentioned a fast colossus build, would you be willing to share that as well? How does that fare versus 2 hatch mutas?
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
If there ever was an all-in, this would be one lol.
Anyway I'm going to try this once I get done with my finals, looks really strong.
I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with
On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote: Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
Used it twice and won easily ( I am just plat anyway, but won a Diamond), the zerg just rage quit I think, one claiming it's all in. It is right? But both time I have tons of money floating while pushing. Will expand behind the push instead of reinforce viable? Or it will ruin by lings run by?
Lot's of people would say this is all in, but I do not think so at all. To prevent ling run by's just wall off with the pylon and warp in stalkers behind the wall or maybe even a sentry.
I would say it is an all-in, and a very strong one in the current meta game. Haven't lost with it yet. And i agree with lobber that hydras is probably the only proper response, but i've beaten hydras aswell. Massling doesn't work, ever. Only if you are sloppy and FF bad, or take a fight right in the open. You have great scouting and know what units he does, and it's really hard for a zerg player to know how heavily he must drone, since he needs either lings or roaches early on as queens wont cut it.
If zerg player does 3-4 queens he will delay his lair for so long also preventing hydras which would be required. You can as P attack anywhere between 8-11 minutes, the sooner the better of course, and he wont stand much of a chance. But i don't see how it couldn't be an all-in. You cut probe production, you have 4 gates and a robo on 1 base. I guess if it's a "failed" attack where u bring down his probe count and expansion while not being able to attack his front due to spines or w/e (like 10 of them) it could be possible to transition out of.
On December 06 2011 12:14 enjoylol wrote: I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with
Baneling bust will be scoutable, therefor having a sentry or two on the ramp will delay it enough... Nydus could be tricky idd, but who would nydus against a 1 basing toss? And you'd still be basetrading with a toss that has about 3 immortals dealing insane damage to the Z player. Don't think it'd be enough..
The build is strong but not easy to pull off for diamond at least, though i've beaten masters with it.. I float too much and do too little dmg with my Prism, and i still win with it unless i royally fuck my force fields up. Though at the same time lots of wins were just from baiting Z into his main and then force fielding him out. Still its scary that its working even when I mess up a lot, thanks op edit - forgot the main thing Have you tried incorporating a forge with +1 to finish about the time when push is ready. It comes at the cost of 1 immortal, and will help a lot vs lings. Also, wish there was a way to hide the build better as 3gate expands seem rare now
On December 06 2011 12:45 iokke wrote: The build is strong but not easy to pull off for diamond at least, though i've beaten masters with it.. I float too much and do too little dmg with my Prism, and i still win with it unless i royally fuck my force fields up. Though at the same time lots of wins were just from baiting Z into his main and then force fielding him out. Still its scary that its working even when I mess up a lot, thanks op edit - forgot the main thing Have you tried incorporating a forge with +1 to finish about the time when push is ready. It comes at the cost of 1 immortal, and will help a lot vs lings. Also, wish there was a way to hide the build better as 3gate expands seem rare now
Thing about dealing damage with warp prism.. The damage you do is forcing the zerg player to make units early, instead of making drones. I played a game where i killed 3 workers, 1 queen and 1 creep tumor, and that is more than i usually do. About floating minerals, just make 2 extra immortals or so, keep on checking ur gateways when they are off cd. Make sentries early to save up gas, and stalkers with that. If you noticed he made alot of lings when ur pushing out, just warp in zealots after that. I don't think incorporating a +1 attack is worth it since it will leave you waiting, aswell as using all ur CB on it while it could and should have been used on immortals and gateways, also it costs 250/100, which is imo not worth it seeing as lings shouldn't be a problem with forcefields anyway.
Thanks for the tips! Yeah I realized that at the very least he isnt making drones, though at the same time it seems a bit counter intuitive (allin coming, id prefer him to have only drones... i think) With forge, i think if you build it shortly after robo you wont need to use too many CB on it for +1 to finish by the time your main push is in his base. I tried it one time, cutting an early sentry for gas, did not seem like it hurt the timing too much (then again, at my level timings are not as precise).
I like this build, I might actually have to try it just to add to my arsenal of strong all-ins. Around what time is ideal for the Warp Prism to be hitting his base? ( I haven't had to look at the replays yet or the complete thread so I apologize if this has been answered before)
On December 06 2011 12:14 enjoylol wrote: I would imagine some good baneling hits at your wall, followed by the speedling runby either when you just push out or an allin would hurt. Or even nydus rush play seems difficult to deal with
Baneling bust will be scoutable, therefor having a sentry or two on the ramp will delay it enough... Nydus could be tricky idd, but who would nydus against a 1 basing toss? And you'd still be basetrading with a toss that has about 3 immortals dealing insane damage to the Z player. Don't think it'd be enough..
Well he doesn't scout, so there's your deviation. A baneling bust should hard counter the build how he does it (no scouting), but I presume other people who adopt it would scout. Also, who the fuck goes 14/14 banes anymore?
I know immortals are strong, but I was very surprised at how strong the attack actually is. I knew it would be strong, but it's slightly stronger (and later) than I assumed it would be.
Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals.
I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that:
Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic).
On December 06 2011 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals.
I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that:
Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic).
On December 06 2011 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals.
I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that:
Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic).
On December 06 2011 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Immortals are really strong in the early game, and only in the last few months have people realized that. With the range buff, they are even better. I do Immortals busts to Zerg and Terran players all the time, and have a good win percentage with them. I prefer to get a Forge and a +1 attack upgrade and do some early cannon play instead of the Warp Prism vs Zerg. This however, is another nice build that uses Immortals.
I almost died laughing though when I watched the replay vs Tang on XNC. He states "zerg so up" before leaving the game, yet in his "article" on a positive mindset, which is apparently the "Key to SC2" in his words, he writes in bold that:
Every SC2 player would learn and play significantly better if they considered imbalance, hacks, and cheese none-existent (sic).
Although if he did his 14/14 bling bust that he advocates against Terran he might have won^^. Bust kills the zealot blocking the ramp, and allows lings to runin (if stalker is close enough to block, it'll actually take dmg from blings, and lings can simply focus down weakened gate or core, whichever is weaker).
Anyways, I think the true power in this build is that if you DON'T know it's coming, so you can't attempt to blind counter it. There's absolutely no reason to 14/14 bling bust unless you know the person is doing this build... well, maybe people will do it vs you since they'll recognize your name on ladder :o.
On December 03 2011 06:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't really see why this should be a good attack. Basically it's quite a late 1 base immortal + gateway all-in using a warp prism? I don't see why simple roach/ling shouldn't beat this.. If zerg doesn't see a protoss expansion around 5:45 they should always be massing roach/ling. I guess it can be difficult for zerg to guess what you are doing as robo on 1 base is really uncommon so they might be expecting air or DT play forcing them into useless spores. Spine wall defense is also quite common which should be pretty useless too against warp prism.
You hit with 4 immortals, a lot of stalkers, a shit load of sentries with several forcefields available and you can warp-in 4 zealots at a time if you see alot of lings. Roaches die so quickly to the immortals, and so do spine crawlers. Lings are pretty much useless against so many force-fields.
Markwerf is actually right. In the long run this build creates just another Timing Zergs have to figure out. In essence its a 4 Gate with 4 Immortals and a Prism that hits ~ 4 Minutes later and has some harassment at 7-8 Minutes. If you engage open field with roach ling and he places FF to shield his Army Z can simply run away and wait for the FF to expire and Stalker/Sentry/Immo without Upgrades and FF against Roach/Ling is quite crap. Dont get me wrong, its very strong and not gimmicky at all, but unless a transition is incorperated its just a 111-like Build to steal wins and metagaming Zergs into less greedy builds.
I do agree that I think the best move for zergs must be to engage the army in the middle of the map or possibly quick hydras, but they still need A LOT of units to even put a dent in the army. The strong point(imo) lies in immortals making spine-crawler and roach defenses pretty much useless and lings do nothing at all vs sentries with a lot of energy saved up.
It's definitely not unbeatable though, even if I never lost with it in top masters (6-0 so far). Most zerg players just respond to this like retards, I even met one who went up to 65 drones vs a 1-base protoss. I'd say this push is many times stronger than how the 4-gate felt before zergs figured it out.
On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote: [quote]
Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging.
But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage.
Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning.
No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop.
Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens,
wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
Have you guys tried the build? The harass hits much earlier and the push is much stronger then you'd think (atleast than I thought it would be). There's no reason for the zerg to get 4 queens before he scouts the warp prism, and by that time he already needs to build a lot of units. I put a sentry in my warp prism along with a stalker and an immortal and you can really find some nasty places you can prevent the lings from hitting you while being behind his mineral line, forcing him to pull off mining or lose drones. Also you can prevent queens from killing the warp prism with force-fields and just kiting.
Well, most zergs have 3 queens on 2 bases, and some get another one to make it more harass resistant. Not to mention that, when we see the lack of an expansion at 6:30, we stop droning and scout the shit out of your base. We just know that you're doing something unusual, so we preprare for voids, DTs, or a 4 gate. Which, as zerg, is by no means out of our way.
While this would be a sensible respone, not many people react like this. Most zerg players go 40+ drones versus these kinds of builds, and even if they don't it's certainly not a free win for them.
And the prism will be rendered ineffective for warps by the queens, and if it unloads, then you're relying on the idea of your sentries never running out of mana. We just have to pull drones for a second, then your FF wears off and we stop the harass with minimal lost mining time.
I'm not really relying on my sentries never running out of mana, I'm just saying if you place your pool behind your mineral line it's a free win for me on certain maps. With 4 forcefields you can block off any zerglings from attacking with 1 forcefield. IIRC a forcefield last 15 seconds, which would let me deny you mining for 1 minute, which certainly isn't "minimal lost mining time". You need to understand that doing damage with the warp prism is not required, even though it's guaranteed. Most of the damage is done indirectly by forcing the zerg to build lings. They need quite an hefty amount aswell since you can at any point (well, after your gates complete) warp in an additional 4 zealots if they're low on units and insta win.
I'm not saying it's easy to do that, and you'll probably win most of your games in plat and below with this, but it's basically just a 1/1/1 for PvZ beyond that.
Incredibly stupid comparison. 1/1/1 is used all the time by top korean terrans and consistently win, yet your saying that this build is mostly useful in plat league? This build is viable at a very high level.
I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
On December 06 2011 18:20 coL.CatZ wrote: sounds like a really interesting build 8-|
I'm a little sad I posted it, talking to a lot of my zerg buddies, a lot of people are using it and now zergs are getting a little better at defending.... What would you do to counter, you do generally have a slightly different approach to a lot of things, what's your take on the build?
I was told about this build and briefly checked it out before playing against it on ladder.
Some Notes on Defending :
1. The Protoss is not expanding, the zerg response is almost always the same. Zerglings, Queens, and Spines should be the words of the day, with a spore in each base as a precaution against warp prisms, dts, and star-gate.
2. If you scout a robo, throw down a few spines in your main as well, just keep producing enough drones to cover your building costs.
3. Whenever the allin comes, your army should be able to deal with it, you have better production, better reinforce, and a better income.
This is an allin, it does not punish greedy zergs, just zergs who don't know how to respond to it correctly and are expecting dt / void / 4-gate allins. I scouted a robo, threw down spines in my main and reinforced with extra spines at my natural, and made queens and spines like mad.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
On December 06 2011 18:20 coL.CatZ wrote: sounds like a really interesting build 8-|
I'm a little sad I posted it, talking to a lot of my zerg buddies, a lot of people are using it and now zergs are getting a little better at defending.... What would you do to counter, you do generally have a slightly different approach to a lot of things, what's your take on the build?
One can only presume that would happen. I had been doing an extremely similar build to Spanishwa (4 queens, no gas, take all four gas at 44 supply, except I often didn't even get a single spine crawler, while I believe he gets two, I just got the queens out faster to defend and relied on pulling drones which seemed to work out better for me). No one knew wtf I was doing and assumed it was a horrible build, and I got one base allnied ALL the time because "you weren't going to have speed and couldn't hold my push off," and I'd constantly STEAMROLL them with queens + masses of slowlings. Followed up with double evos like him but immediately deviated from his path afterwards.
Before he posted his strat, I was absolutely dominant with it, and was destroying most top Terrans on ladder. When it came to the semi-pros like HasHe, Drewbie, etc. I could win multiple times in a row without dropping a single game. Then when he posted the strat, and people started using it more, people learned to counter it so much better... like they realized keeping hellions right outside my main so I couldn't spread creep (which was, without a doubt, the main reason I won my games, I'd say I had better creep spread than 95%+ of pros at the time, far better than IdrA/Ret who people used to marvel at their spread).
And since Spanishwa has been posted, my win rate ZvT and ZvP both plummeted (Protoss started doing 1 gate FE with stalker pokes to abuse my lack of spine and slow lings which started CRUSHING me).
Which leads me to say... if you have a killer strat, my advice is to keep it to yourself.... people will recognize your name and realize you're going for it, and counters WILL develop. I still go 4 queen no gas in ZvT 75% of the time, but I'm no where near as dominant in the MU as I used to be. .
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
Ah that's right, you're the guy I anticipated an aggressive strat after you told me about those Roaches . I don't know why I confused you with the other guy, he never mentioned the 8 roach thing.
2 base hydra with super fast lair can hold it pretty well, I'm talking 4+ hydras out by 7 minutes and they just keep pumping them non-stop, only problem is for zerg is that if it's a 1 base colossus all in hydra zerg loses.
On December 07 2011 23:55 Xenomorph wrote: Does this not work on close by air? Seems like if they get the early scout off they can prepare.
It works even better on close by air, I just did it on metalo, shattered close air at top master level. They can't scout anything with your stalker and they send away their 1rst overlord to not lose it when you begin to build it so you can warp your robo. The drop and the attack come earlier, it's the best position for this strategy I think.
chadissilent wrote: Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to get trapped by the sentries and killed as he leaves his base. Luckily I played against sloppy players who walked sentries out first without even scouting the bottom of their ramp, all 3 times I have had to do it.
On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote: This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing.
Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death...
Spanishiwa built like 4 spines and he doesn't use it because it has flaws. Warp prism would go well vs this
chadissilent wrote: Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to get trapped by the sentries and killed as he leaves his base. Luckily I played against sloppy players who walked sentries out first without even scouting the bottom of their ramp, all 3 times I have had to do it.
fyp
Think what you want chief, I play all top masters and GMs. Whatever they lead with will get sniped one by one, if the sentries are in range then they are focused.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
couldnt a protoss... you know... just elevator his units down to the low ground and then kill you on even turf?
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
couldnt a protoss... you know... just elevator his units down to the low ground and then kill you on even turf?
With all of that lost harass time, I get another inject or two and more time to prepare for the attack. I'll make that trade.
There are ton of hypotheticals in this situation, I'm simply stating what has worked for me. Then again, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
Really enjoying this build. Usually I am the type of player who gets really annoyed with one base play since I feel like it doesn't help my overall abilities. Against Zerg I was having so much difficulty from mid to late game where they just had so many Mutas I couldn't deal with it, and before that I felt like i couldn't attack without losing my entire army. This build works really well, no one I have come against has been able to deal with it. Just faced a Zerg who went fast Mutas and just died because of the amount of Stalkers I had.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
Your going to snipe 1 stalker if you're lucky against a good player, and it's not really worth losing alot of roaches for 1 stalker. Since you do know stalkers are faster than roaches without speed, and I highly doubt you have roach speed if you've been spamming lings and roaches. Also, a good player wouldn't let you camp his ramp. He could just harass you with his 1/2 immortals and force you to away from the ramp to the point where he can get most of his units down without you noticing.
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
Your going to snipe 1 stalker if you're lucky against a good player, and it's not really worth losing alot of roaches for 1 stalker. Since you do know stalkers are faster than roaches without speed, and I highly doubt you have roach speed if you've been spamming lings and roaches. Also, a good player wouldn't let you camp his ramp. He could just harass you with his 1/2 immortals and force you to away from the ramp to the point where he can get most of his units down without you noticing.
Do you want to test this out? I know what build you're doing, you know how I plan on dealing with it. Sound fair?
the only thing i can come up with that will counter this strategy is if u upgrade ovies speed and drop. which im pretty sure will come too late to do anything.
if u can drop in his base u will win teh base race. However if it isnt close spawns ur screwed
and about zerglins engaging in the middle of the map i do one of two things.
the first don't use any ff and my army will still win or wait for u to retreat
2 if u get to close i will ff and trap u and then i win cause half ur army is gone.
I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote: I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Sounds like the guy you played didn't execute it correctly tbh.
On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote: I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Yeah this counter won't work if P does it well, no amount of spine or roach can hold, neither can mass mass spine muta ling, only potential holds are super macro pure ling, I'm talking 80+ lings with reinforcements coming, or super fast hydras, you need 10+ hydras out before I got to your base or I can win with FF and even then you need a lot of lings and spines and likely a drone pull too survive.
just done it today I did it BADLY and still it seemed overpowered, the dropforced extra lings, some static defence in main and even an extra queen or not.. then forsome reason zergs still go roach...lol i just made sure to kill a queen pickup and try to snipeoverlords around too forcing more unitsand pulling queens away frominjecting.
Lot more needs to eb done then just building the units, thingslike notletting overlords scout yuou by spreading pylons around, tkaing towers by dropping on lings holding them or even overlordsaroundthe map, then when the dropcomes the zerg panics and sned in armies and with properforcefiled placement youcan seperate the ling and roach and then even forcefield again to stop the lings if they dontpull them back and they committhem. Deffiantly a strat that is perfect for a best of 3.
This has been very handy against Zerg, even when I horribly execute it (1 minute late, although getting better). Lower diamond zergs are getting roflstomped when I used to have some serious trouble ~10-12m mark when mutas came out in force. Thanks ^^
On December 08 2011 07:47 TheShadower wrote: This has been very handy against Zerg, even when I horribly execute it (1 minute late, although getting better). Lower diamond zergs are getting roflstomped when I used to have some serious trouble ~10-12m mark when mutas came out in force. Thanks ^^
aye if they go muta it normamlly means they will have not enough army to counter it and u can just warp in stalkers and mutas wont want to base race in low numbers
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
Are you "iAmSeXi"?
I'm ClashDrone, we played yesterday
On December 07 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:
On December 07 2011 03:27 chadissilent wrote: I have played against this build three times in top masters and have held it every time. If they are on 1 base, I drop a roach warren at 32 food, drone to 36 and sac an overlord at 6:30. If I scout 1 base play, I drop 1 spine in main and nat, make an extra queen, make 8 roaches and pump pure ling. Think the Losira build with a couple spines for defense.
Once I have my 8 roaches, I camp the bottom of his ramp and wait for him to move out. By camping his ramp, you use his chokes against him and can snipe the units as they come down one-by-one. My favorite is sniping the sentries so I can just overrun his army in the middle of the map with lings.
This just sounds incredibly stupid to me, what if the protoss warps in 2 sentries and 2 zealots in addition to his 2 stalkers and an immortal and just block your ramp and kills everything? You can't attack him since he will forcefield you off, and you can't defend since there's no way you could have a big enough army to prevent him from coming down the ramp and raping you while also defending your main and nat from the warp prism. Best bet is probably to keep everything in your base except scouting lings, and when you see his army moving out and his warp prism retreating to gather up with his push, you attack him from all angles and try to kill his army/waste all of his force-fields.
I have 8 roaches at his ramp and a million lings + 2 spines + 2 spores at my base. Is it that difficult to comprehend? The roaches are there to simply kill the sentries as he leaves his base, since speedlings destroy that army without sentries. It has worked perfectly all 3 times I have had to do it.
What? What the fuck is 8 roaches supposed to do against 40 supply of protoss units? It might work if he sends his sentries down one by one on move-command and lets you kill them all, but let's not imagine a bronze-league scenario. What would happen is he marches down with 3 immortals(with the sentries in the back ofc) and gets some free kills, and you don't kill shit. Hence the "incredibly stupid" part. And yes, it's hard to comprehend since I don't see how that scenario makes sense even in bronze league.
I'll forgive you on the reading comprehension since English clearly isn't your first language. What this contain does is it instantly gives you a concave on his units coming down the ramp. Since these unit have go come down in single file (kinda hard to deathball down a ramp), you pick off whatever you can one at a time. If sentries are in range, you focus fire them.
I'm willing to bet I play higher level players than you do, so don't give me that "Bronze league" shit.
Your going to snipe 1 stalker if you're lucky against a good player, and it's not really worth losing alot of roaches for 1 stalker. Since you do know stalkers are faster than roaches without speed, and I highly doubt you have roach speed if you've been spamming lings and roaches. Also, a good player wouldn't let you camp his ramp. He could just harass you with his 1/2 immortals and force you to away from the ramp to the point where he can get most of his units down without you noticing.
Do you want to test this out? I know what build you're doing, you know how I plan on dealing with it. Sound fair?
I'm sure you'd beat me if you know what I'm doing since you seem to have experience playing against it. I'm just saying your 'ramp-camping' has no part in beating the strategy, I'd even say it sets you behind versus players that know what theyre doing.
Seeing as you get a robo, but don't get an observer, has anyone ever tried burrowed banelings on you? I mean, if they KNOW exactly what's coming and burrow a handful of banelings in a spot you will likely likely walk over (like ramp out of their natural or into your natural), couldn't they take out your sentries and then just swarm you with slings? Have you considered trying to fit an obs into the build?
i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/
On December 08 2011 10:48 TechnoSchaman wrote: i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/
I have been just hitting earlier, with 3 or even 2 immortals, if I scout 4 gas/fast lair/nothird, in order to hit before spire pops, which lets you run over most zergs who are saving for mutas.
On December 08 2011 10:48 TechnoSchaman wrote: i have tried this build probably 5 times, with one success. I know most the mistakes are my own, but im finding that after 6 minutes or so when the zerg realizes im one base, they do exactly what you said and make mass ling. 3 out of the 4 losses, i wasnt able to nearly any damage besides maybe one overlord snipe, and a queen kill. the speedlings follow my prism denying any damage. Ive been pushing out around 9-10 minute mark, and 3/4 losses they had 7-12 mutas pop out, immediately focus stalkers and take out warp prism. I dont know what i need to be doing differently, or if its that at low masters (and the occasional diamond kid) people arent playing greedy and trying to drone, they simply mass units. I just cant seem to win with any timing attack around 10 minutes because mutas always wreck my day :/
I have been just hitting earlier, with 3 or even 2 immortals, if I scout 4 gas/fast lair/nothird, in order to hit before spire pops, which lets you run over most zergs who are saving for mutas.
hmm, i guess i never really thought about that, i feel dumb now cuz i realize that while im harassing with drop, i never REALLY look at their tech, i simply see roach warren and how many drones they have, but havent really been aware of lair timing.... ill def try out this faster push if i see fast lair... thanks
I'm getting banelings a fair bit from some zergs lately, I'm not sure whether they are just doing it wrong or whether it doesn't work, but I had some pretty close games vs banelings since he wastes my ffs with lings beforehand.
I'm a mid masters zerg, and I just had a guy do this to me on ladder. Here is a quick summary of the game and how I defended it quite easily (don't think this defense has been mentioned yet):
The game began normally, though I noticed he wasn't taking his natural at the typical sentry expand timing. Curious, I sacked an overlord and scouted the robo. At this point I knew the build was coming - I don't know of any other 1 base robo plays from toss.
I decided I would try to defend without any tech at all, just queens and zerglings. I had my initial 3 queens (1 per base + 1 for creep spread). I then continually produced queens until the timing hit me. When he attacked I had 7 queens, a good number of lings and 5-6 spine crawlers. I destroyed the push, constantly transfusing my injured queens. In fact, it was so one sided I didn't even need my spines, and ended up chasing him out of my base without the use of the spines.
I have a replay if anyone is interested. Any thoughts on a pure speedling/queen defense? It seemed quite effective to me, but it was only one game.
On December 08 2011 14:24 muffinsssss wrote: I'm a mid masters zerg, and I just had a guy do this to me on ladder. Here is a quick summary of the game and how I defended it quite easily (don't think this defense has been mentioned yet):
The game began normally, though I noticed he wasn't taking his natural at the typical sentry expand timing. Curious, I sacked an overlord and scouted the robo. At this point I knew the build was coming - I don't know of any other 1 base robo plays from toss.
I decided I would try to defend without any tech at all, just queens and zerglings. I had my initial 3 queens (1 per base + 1 for creep spread). I then continually produced queens until the timing hit me. When he attacked I had 7 queens, a good number of lings and 5-6 spine crawlers. I destroyed the push, constantly transfusing my injured queens. In fact, it was so one sided I didn't even need my spines, and ended up chasing him out of my base without the use of the spines.
I have a replay if anyone is interested. Any thoughts on a pure speedling/queen defense? It seemed quite effective to me, but it was only one game.
I've been defending this for the past few days using sling / queen / spine.
Scout the robo, make queen / lings / spines, don't allow the warp prism to unload and get a fast +1 melee for the push. Ultimate tech should be towards muta, but as long as the zerg doesn't rush he should hold.
Looks like a solid build I'll give it a try. I am worried about mass ling countering my main army but I guess I need gosu FF's. I Haven't seen the replay pack yet but without seeing it I think it could get me a few wins.
Some stubborn protoss did it to me twice in a row on xel. I held it easily the first time and got overconfident then but still held it with some difficulties the second game. What as been working for me is just not overdroning or overteching. I get my evo chamber at 6 in case of DT or stargate all-in and a third queen, then my roach warren at 6:30 seeing no expo. Then I just get best mineral saturation on both bases + 1 gaz (16*2+3=35 drones). I thraw down a macro hatch around 7. And I then go into pure roach ling production. It seems weird because it feels like all-ining him but with 2 saturated bases I have a much better income. The early third queen is really important to begin creep spreading asap (she also help a lot at defending the harass). The idea is to get the first major engagement on creep in a open field (just between the gold and your nat on xel). With a speedling eavy army plus a few roaches on creep you get an easy surround and sentrys shouldn't be enough to deny your 360° suround if you force some force field before the battle. I feel that it's a good way of holding it because it's not that vulnerable to other one base all-ins (like 2 colossus rush) as long as you can engage him on creep. Something that I learned is also to be vary carefull of overlords positioning since they are the primary target off the wp harass.
the problem that many zergs are saying stopped it once its easy to stop yet dont even probably watch the replay to see if the protoss did it properly, good forcefields are good vs someon who gets mass ling, and also vs ling/roach to seperate them. I never practice I only do it on ladder so my first attemps (100% so far) have been so poor, ive supply blocked myself, forgot pylons, didnt kill an incoming overlord and didnt do the harassment such as killing overlords at all well and still pretty much 1A vs the zerg so far. Fair enough my opponents probably arent master zergs but generally on my skill level vs equal players it abuses the fact that if they play too greedy or even tech direct to mutas this hits before the mutas even get enough to do anything. A good strategy to have in your arsenal just to use in a bo3 and perhaps catch an opponent off guard.
So, Lobber, have you actually lost with this build yet? I mean, when you execute perfectly and all.
Its hard to believe you've got a 100% win rate against Zerg (excluding games where you make mistakes, like the 3 you describe in the OP). Has no one found an answer yet, in a game against you? Can you post some replays of yourself losing, if those exist?
On December 08 2011 20:04 Sbrubbles wrote: So, Lobber, have you actually lost with this build yet? I mean, when you execute perfectly and all.
Its hard to believe you've got a 100% win rate against Zerg (excluding games where you make mistakes, like the 3 you describe in the OP). Has no one found an answer yet, in a game against you? Can you post some replays of yourself losing, if those exist?
watch the replays he has lost in games... the more well known the strategy the more likely that people will counter even if done flawless. Also a few replays zergs were close to stopping but wasted units earlier on or they most likely would of stopped it.
Its deffiantly not unbeatable it just takes advantage that its non standard(as its not that common yet) and zergs panic which exactly what happens when a zerg does mutas harass to us:D
When this comes more standard it will be just another stategy that a zerg needs to be aware off and play different then the norm.
Yesterday I was practicing this build against my friends, and many of them couldn't win even knowing the build was coming and meta-gaming it. One friend managed to beat me eventually with hydra-ling, but I don't expect that any zergs on ladder will really be doing that. Most at my level try to go heavy mass ling, but with good positioning and FF's, that can be beaten pretty handily.
On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote: I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Did you check his timings on the replay, when did he actually hit your front door with his whole force? The execution does make a big difference, I have tons of flaws in my execution still and the only time mutas have ever popped is when I'm in his base and they die pretty fast as they pop or get focused by the ~8 stalkers. Not to mention I think Lobber has the timings down to engagements at ~9:30.
Almost all of my losses came from mass ling, one game some guy had right at 83 lings when I was hitting his base =/. But really the onus is on the protoss to have good FFs and execution in most cases even if the zerg knows its coming. Some Masters guy held me off yesterday and said "what does the guide say to do next?", I lol'd.
This build is lots of fun, but I have a couple questions:
I started doing a partial wall like the OP, cyber + gateway at the ramp, but sometimes the scouting drone would see what was going on and sit in that spot, delaying my cybernetics. Should I just put the cyber somewhere else and make the partial wall with my 2nd pylon and gateway in that case? Is the reason that is worse that it's more vulnerable to banes?
Also, for the purposes of walking between buildings, am I right that if a zealot can't walk through a zealot-gateway-cyber wall then a ling won't be able to, right? And an immortal will be able to, once I move my blocking zealot?
The guide only goes up to 4 gates. I have been finding my money has been piling up, so I've gone to 6 in some games if I missed some production during the harass. It seems like at least 5 gates is necessary though once you're no longer making anything out of the robo, plus chrono is piling up.
On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote: I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Did you check his timings on the replay, when did he actually hit your front door with his whole force? The execution does make a big difference, I have tons of flaws in my execution still and the only time mutas have ever popped is when I'm in his base and they die pretty fast as they pop or get focused by the ~8 stalkers. Not to mention I think Lobber has the timings down to engagements at ~9:30.
Almost all of my losses came from mass ling, one game some guy had right at 83 lings when I was hitting his base =/. But really the onus is on the protoss to have good FFs and execution in most cases even if the zerg knows its coming. Some Masters guy held me off yesterday and said "what does the guide say to do next?", I lol'd.
I feel this is because mass-ling is the correct response. Teching to Hydras seems gimmicky and unncessary. Mass queen / ling / spine should hold off pressure at the front, regardless of FF, and so long as the Zerg is mindful of his base (ie. he can't let himself get FF"d out / in his main and can't let drops do damage) he should not lose.
That said, I am sure Lobber's actual allin is several times harder to hold off, the build designer is always going to have an enormous lead in experience with his build.
Only times I lose with it are vs people who know it's coming before the game starts, like when I'm practicing with a zerg and I ask him to purposely hard counter it, or vs a GM zerg who I did it to 3 times in a row in a best of 5 (he lost the first to games to it, won the third, then I switch strats.)
I don't get the point of telling how many times you won with a strat. It's about how effective it is in the end. I like having extra one base plays but I've strayed away from this one because much like a 1/1/1 I feel it's too easy to scout, 1/1/1 atleast is a lot more flexible and keeps me guessing where as you can't exactly do that with this and it comes around the same time.
I just don't like the all-encompassing statements. "only time I lose and when people know it's coming before the game starts" is a bullshit statement sorry.
On December 09 2011 07:51 KingDime wrote: I don't get the point of telling how many times you won with a strat. It's about how effective it is in the end. I like having extra one base plays but I've strayed away from this one because much like a 1/1/1 I feel it's too easy to scout, 1/1/1 atleast is a lot more flexible and keeps me guessing where as you can't exactly do that with this and it comes around the same time.
I just don't like the all-encompassing statements. "only time I lose and when people know it's coming before the game starts" is a bullshit statement sorry.
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
On December 09 2011 10:05 Severedevil wrote: I like the sound of this build. What's the incentive to drop an Immortal and two Stalkers instead of 3-4 Zealots, which can start earlier?
4 Zealots can be easily stopped by any player that goes for early roaches, although he would lose to the immortals later on. Immortals and Stalkers also don't need to walk to an enemy unit before they can start shooting, and Immortals in general do so much damage that it can take out morphing spine crawlers and harass queens easily.
http://drop.sc/70799 Here's a replay of me holding it with a macro hatchery. As long as you don't take a third too fast ( which any sane person wouldn't because you are on one base ) and scout when he is moving out and where he is you can easily overwhelm him with Zerglings. Once you get +1 going it's really hard for them to put a dent in me and the extra macro hatchery allows me to build more than enough queens to seriously hamper warp prism movement.
Second time I face this style, and I have to say, with my regular build I fare against it pretty well if I may say so myself. But I can definitely see the strength in going for this against anything but this style though .
On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote: Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
Tried this on cross position on shattered. Worked amazingly well and I even botched the BO. The prism harass can really mess with your zerg enemy they don't know what to think. The guy I faced dropped a roach warren AND a spire on two base but continued making mass lings when he realized I was 1 base all-in.
Didn't matter he couldn't even get up more than 3 roaches to save his life. This BO is very fun and works very well. Flaws yes, but very powerful. This was mid diamond on NA server.
On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote: Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
what omg you mean you actually saw him lose a game now this strategy is getting common. oh my word, maybe we should all go back on whatever we post 7 days to update and say yes I have lost a lot more games since!!!!!
yeh he posted that comment on today but do you watch his stram 24/7? are u sure this isnt some guy who may of...... seen this post and KNOWS what he is going to do, or as he posted someone who he has played many times over the last few days and did he do the strategy perfectly?
When does this hit? I was watching Lobber's stream the otherday and it hit around 9 minutes, seems like it's like a 2 base timing but weaker. I think 3 hatch roach ling without lair would easily overrun this build. Around 9 minutes I usually have my 3rd saturated 16 drones as well as 2 gasses with saturation and both my main and my natural with around 16-18 drones with a good amount of roaches and lings with +1.
Edit: I believe the only reason why this build is so strong is because 90% of zergs open 2 base lair so they have significantly less units because they are teching so hard.
On December 10 2011 00:02 DemoraliZ wrote: When does this hit? I was watching Lobber's stream the otherday and it hit around 9 minutes, seems like it's like a 2 base timing but weaker. I think 3 hatch roach ling without lair would easily overrun this build. Around 9 minutes I usually have my 3rd saturated 16 drones as well as 2 gasses with saturation and both my main and my natural with around 16-18 drones with a good amount of roaches and lings with +1.
Edit: I believe the only reason why this build is so strong is because 90% of zergs open 2 base lair so they have significantly less units because they are teching so hard.
Yea that's exactly what happens most of the time. 2 base lair. Also it hits about 9 -11 mins. 9 if your're really good and about 11 if you butcher the build a bit. Me being in plat, Main army hits around 10 ish
On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote: Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
what omg you mean you actually saw him lose a game now this strategy is getting common. oh my word, maybe we should all go back on whatever we post 7 days to update and say yes I have lost a lot more games since!!!!!
yeh he posted that comment on today but do you watch his stram 24/7? are u sure this isnt some guy who may of...... seen this post and KNOWS what he is going to do, or as he posted someone who he has played many times over the last few days and did he do the strategy perfectly?
This build has been working quite well (high masters). I've won far more than I've lost and those games were just due to some mistakes. I think zergs will get better at countering it the more they see it though, and I feel slightly dirty using it lol.
On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote: Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
I fucked that game up pretty bad assuming it was vs Lalush or Destiny the other day, other than that I can't think of any recent losses with it that I've streamed.
You were playing on the korean server.It was a random korean master. I'm not sure what map. the z got about 5 spines, lings, and queens. After you lost the game you said "I guess mass queens and spines beats it but if i had waped in on the main I would have won". I think it was a little while back , and i linked to your stream from a reddit post, so it probably coincided with one of your posts getting to the front page. Hope that helps ^_^
i've been fiddling around with this a bit myself. what i like to do on close air positions (really the only time i use this tbh) is go 2 sentry instead of 2 stalkers and do a mineral line sentry drop and get quite a few drone kills if the zerg really isnt prepared. probably not necessarily better but i like it more. non close air it isnt as effective though of course
Mass spines, lings and 4 queens holds this very easily. The spines + lings make it infeasible to attack through the natural and the 4 queens make it impossible to warp in the main. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this build and this is by far the simplest and most effective answer.
On December 10 2011 11:48 Rinny wrote: You were playing on the korean server.It was a random korean master. I'm not sure what map. the z got about 5 spines, lings, and queens. After you lost the game you said "I guess mass queens and spines beats it but if i had waped in on the main I would have won". I think it was a little while back , and i linked to your stream from a reddit post, so it probably coincided with one of your posts getting to the front page. Hope that helps ^_^
Oh I just wanted to see if I could break the spine wall with an a move. In a game I played vs sasquach he had 3 queens 12 spines and mass ling and I won anyway just by positioning it well.
Lobber I am in love with this build. I usually lurk these forums, but I had to tell you this build even works in the silver leagues, where the bad kids (me included when I play zerg) just spam roaches and try to win. I've lost a couple games due to bad control or messing up the crucial timings early on, but this build is really a LOT of fun to play with, lots of control and trickery, im diggin it! :D GREAT JOB!
SCREW THIS BUILD IN THE ASS so hard to stop its ridiculous. had some dude do it to me yesterday. even though i saw what he was planning when i first saw his prism i didnt know how to react. just couldnt kill the prism
Thanks for the build lobber. It's working great in low masters. Besides being a great build, it's can also be hilarious because just as the wp is about to move out, is the roach rush timing when they think I want to expand then they move up the ramp they see 2 sentries, an immortal or two and stalkers. I think 1/3 of my z wins are accidentally hard countering 1 base all ins, 1/3 are the strat working well, and 1/3 are the opponent underestimating the strat by not putting up near enough spines, or thinking he can spare lings to counterattack, etc.
This strat confirms it. The effectivness of a strat is inversely proportional to the number of ggs produced by it's succesful execution. By that measure, this strat is better than cheesing in gold league.
Hi i just tried this out, it was kinda hard to pull off even for a mid/top master protoss, i got 5 wins in a row with it ^^ i let my friend try to counter it and he made 2 base hydra lings and i died ^^
Ive found that if the zerg goes doesnt scout, they tend to expecte airplay, and go blind hydra. Ive lost to a blind hydra ling play, and also a player who went ling roach but engaged my army slowly in the middle of the map as i made my push. it forced me to waste some forcefields, making the main engagement terrible for me. the player told me he had been facing this build all day. It seems like the way protoss has to deal with 1-1-1, slow the push while its coming and make more units at home. this zerg player just poked in enough with lings and roaches to delay my attack til he had perfect defense at home.
Many people have been saying hydra is the answer, but the problem is that hydra will lose to 1 base collusus and 4/5 gate so realistly zergs cannot prepare for allins going ling hydra. I was really amazed by game 3 vs Machnificent as he knew it was comeing and made full mineral saturation on 2 bases, 3 spines and was cranking +1 lings and roaches and yet still lost (very close game though as lobber he lost 3/4 immortals). I beleive this build will become as infamous as the 111 in PvZ.
You shouldn't really have lair up against 1 base protoss. If anything, you may have started lair or roach speed, but more econ is preferable than lair. You can just make like 20 spines once you have the econ behind it, and that'll stop this build.
On December 16 2011 21:52 Belial88 wrote: You shouldn't really have lair up against 1 base protoss. If anything, you may have started lair or roach speed, but more econ is preferable than lair. You can just make like 20 spines once you have the econ behind it, and that'll stop this build.
Mass spine doesn't work, I've torn through 15 spines and mass ling drone with mutas eventually with it, some maps with a choke for the natural spines work, but any open natural and you win vs spine.
Well i meant you basically have the econ to mass a ton of anything if you forego the lair, I wasn't actually recommending 20 spines, I'm aware that immortals and immortal/warp prism can tear through them. Probably better to have a few queens, a few spines, and tons of lings, maybe some roaches too.
On December 16 2011 21:52 Belial88 wrote: You shouldn't really have lair up against 1 base protoss. If anything, you may have started lair or roach speed, but more econ is preferable than lair. You can just make like 20 spines once you have the econ behind it, and that'll stop this build.
Mass spine doesn't work, I've torn through 15 spines and mass ling drone with mutas eventually with it, some maps with a choke for the natural spines work, but any open natural and you win vs spine.
I think mass spine definitely works. I've held it several times. You just need to micro well with it. Spread creep to the point where you can land a spine-choke , then whenever they try to engage run your lings in, they run back, you run back etc.... As long as you have higher income, its a race against time for you. Don't even transition into mutas, if you are to that point than go infestors. Comes faster and much more useful.
In all honestly once you scout the robo, you make like 10 lings to deal with the warp prism harass(which btw I feel like is just anti-productive. Much more expensive than a medivac drop and much less damage-ful.) Then you drone up on 2 base, get fully saturated(or about.) Get a macro hatch, mass spine, and mass ling.
On December 17 2011 19:56 Pandain wrote: In all honestly once you scout the robo, you make like 10 lings to deal with the warp prism harass(which btw I feel like is just anti-productive. Much more expensive than a medivac drop and much less damage-ful.) Then you drone up on 2 base, get fully saturated(or about.) Get a macro hatch, mass spine, and mass ling.
You don't have to do damage with the Warp Prism to make the push work. Most of the time you're guaranteed 1-2 spotter overlords, and a few lings at least. Sometimes if the Zerg was very greedy you can get a queen. At least the Zerg will have to make a few units, in which case its already worth it, since the units and WP are needed for the push anyways and you will never lose either of them with proper control. Also you get an idea of what the Zerg is doing.
When there is a massive amount of lings already, I find that slowing down the push to get out additional units out is benifitial. If the Zerg has Roaches out I push rather quickly, same with a fast Lair.
I don't agree with scouting that late however. Scouting on 11 will give you an idea how the Zerg is opening, and sometimes let you prevent a hatch first, which I find to be tricky with this build. It won't delay your 13 gate by much and you can bring back the probe alive most of the times.
I faced this build in eu. The kid was pretty arrogant. Upgraded lings shred this :p I got destroyed by the build, but i had time to think about it, so when you scout the 1gate robo, you pump 2more queens while staying on one gas, quickly search +1melee, if you don't see any expo by 6:30, it's obvious it will be an one base play, so you pump mass lings and try to catch it in the open field. With only 4sentry, you can't destroy unending waves of speedlings if they micro their lings correctly
On December 24 2011 22:55 Erasme wrote: I faced this build in eu. The kid was pretty arrogant. Upgraded lings shred this :p I got destroyed by the build, but i had time to think about it, so when you scout the 1gate robo, you pump 2more queens while staying on one gas, quickly search +1melee, if you don't see any expo by 6:30, it's obvious it will be an one base play, so you pump mass lings and try to catch it in the open field. With only 4sentry, you can't destroy unending waves of speedlings if they micro their lings correctly
The issue with mass lings versus this is that immortals can shred mass lings if protected. If you can turtle with enough spines/queens it can be broken as the OP spoke of, but "mass lings" in preparation of a 1 base play won't cut it. Unless the protoss doesn't micro the army, there is no way he is going to be surrounded and picked apart by an "endless wave" of zerglings, especially if you FF the ramp for reinforcements.
On December 24 2011 22:55 Erasme wrote: I faced this build in eu. The kid was pretty arrogant. Upgraded lings shred this :p I got destroyed by the build, but i had time to think about it, so when you scout the 1gate robo, you pump 2more queens while staying on one gas, quickly search +1melee, if you don't see any expo by 6:30, it's obvious it will be an one base play, so you pump mass lings and try to catch it in the open field. With only 4sentry, you can't destroy unending waves of speedlings if they micro their lings correctly
The issue with mass lings versus this is that immortals can shred mass lings if protected. If you can turtle with enough spines/queens it can be broken as the OP spoke of, but "mass lings" in preparation of a 1 base play won't cut it. Unless the protoss doesn't micro the army, there is no way he is going to be surrounded and picked apart by an "endless wave" of zerglings, especially if you FF the ramp for reinforcements.
It's also very very easy to spot mass ling, see no roach warren with your harass? Mass lings, warp in a couple zealots and sentries instead of stalkers and ff well... Still harder than vs roach ling, but still not too bad.
On December 24 2011 22:55 Erasme wrote: I faced this build in eu. The kid was pretty arrogant. Upgraded lings shred this :p I got destroyed by the build, but i had time to think about it, so when you scout the 1gate robo, you pump 2more queens while staying on one gas, quickly search +1melee, if you don't see any expo by 6:30, it's obvious it will be an one base play, so you pump mass lings and try to catch it in the open field. With only 4sentry, you can't destroy unending waves of speedlings if they micro their lings correctly
The issue with mass lings versus this is that immortals can shred mass lings if protected. If you can turtle with enough spines/queens it can be broken as the OP spoke of, but "mass lings" in preparation of a 1 base play won't cut it. Unless the protoss doesn't micro the army, there is no way he is going to be surrounded and picked apart by an "endless wave" of zerglings, especially if you FF the ramp for reinforcements.
It's also very very easy to spot mass ling, see no roach warren with your harass? Mass lings, warp in a couple zealots and sentries instead of stalkers and ff well... Still harder than vs roach ling, but still not too bad.
What I love about this timing is that you cannot get up enough roaches in time, especially with harassing the expo. The initial reaction is even more lings and occasionally spines when they see the push coming. However unless you are on a huge map like Taldarim there will be little to no time to prepare.
I like this build, it seems very nice. I didn't read anything but the first page and a bit of the last, but I've gone 4-1 with this build and as for the loss, what do you do if zerg skips roaches and just goes for hydra?
I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke.
On December 29 2011 08:48 MutaKingPrime wrote: I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke.
Just check out some of the replays, I do the timing differently in a lot of them, but you can see how each style works...
Sheth just held this off on his stream on shattered. Didn't catch his exact nat timing, but he got a very quick macro hatch (5min or so?) at his nat, only mined off of one gas, had an extra queen and took minimal damage from the initial harass. He made mass lings with roach support and pulled drones at his nat when the push occurred. Managed to run the P out of forcefields and his drones/few remaining lings eventually got a surround on the immortals, and when the FF on the main ramp wore off the roaches cleaned up whatever was left.
It was really really close though. He'd have been absolutely dead without the drone pull.
He also didn't overproduce drones-- so he had that much more lings.
Protoss didn't really make any obvious mistakes from Sheth's perspective, if he would have had more sentries he would've had less zealots, which he needed in the engagement.
Lobber this build is awesome, and I've gotten quite a few easy wins on ladder with it. However I feel like as it gets more popular, showing up to zergs base with a warp prism with 1 immortal and 2 stalkers is pretty much a dead giveaway of what's to come. Do you think we'll have to start using other types of harassment; maybe a couple sentries and zealots? If I was a zerg player and knew about this build, I would see a immo+stalker drop as a pretty obvious sign that a 10 min immortal push was on its way.
Anyways, thanks for your efforts Also your stream is quite entertaining.
It looks okey but once people catch on to it then it will lose a lot of its power. Vs 1 base play I like to rely on lings mostly so I guess I would do okay vs this. Then again, I haven't encountered it so can't comment too much. But I like warp prism play overall so this build gets the JoeAWESOME seal of approval!
On December 30 2011 03:18 Revelatus wrote: Lobber this build is awesome, and I've gotten quite a few easy wins on ladder with it. However I feel like as it gets more popular, showing up to zergs base with a warp prism with 1 immortal and 2 stalkers is pretty much a dead giveaway of what's to come. Do you think we'll have to start using other types of harassment; maybe a couple sentries and zealots? If I was a zerg player and knew about this build, I would see a immo+stalker drop as a pretty obvious sign that a 10 min immortal push was on its way.
Anyways, thanks for your efforts Also your stream is quite entertaining.
You can always go 1 base colossus with the same drop.
On December 29 2011 08:48 MutaKingPrime wrote: I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke.
Just check out some of the replays, I do the timing differently in a lot of them, but you can see how each style works...
Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass.
So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die. 2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
On December 30 2011 18:35 Hetz wrote: So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die. 2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
this isnt gonna be some revolutionary build that changes the mu lol. ive done it quite a few times and a huge amount of ling/queen is really strong against it. kinda like the 1-1-1 in tvp, except theres really no variations yet, so zerg will know exactly when its coming. give it another few weeks and i assure you, the more P that do it, the more Z players will figure out how to beat it. why dont you try new counters instead of coming to this thread just to cry about a build you just lost to on the ladder..
anyways, thanks for the write up, a fun build to execute once in awhile when im ripping my hair out losing macro pvz to mutas ^^;
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
On December 30 2011 18:35 Hetz wrote: So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die. 2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
Overdramatic much? Read the posts before yours, and you'll find that correctly played mass ling should be able to wear this down. When I use this build, the way I lose is by zerg making an extra queen for the drop, and just pumping mass ling, then meeting me in the middle which forces me to use forcefields - which means I have less for the actual timing. Zerg's are not the only ones in this game who are the victim of ridiculous allin's...or maybe you didn't hear of the 1/1/1 era? Y'know...that really neat allin that is still a bitch to hold, and used to completely decimate protosses no matter what they did as long as the terran played properly? Your post just seems like an excuse to whine instead of looking for answers..
On December 30 2011 17:44 CecilSunkure wrote: Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass.
Keep in mind a lot of the games from the replay pack are vs low master KR or mid-high master NA, since then with my MMR being proper I've only been playing top masters or GMs, and still have beaten TSL Revival and another TSL zerg in playhems with the build... If they don't go fast hydra, or like 8 minute muta, I don't think anything can hold unless I mess up.
On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote: i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
On December 30 2011 21:49 SetStndbySmn wrote: Is there any particular reason this doesn't work in pvp/t? I've been playing around with it, and it seems pretty strong regardless lol
The opening would just die to a 4 gate pvp, so you'd either have to change your build, or pray they aren't aggressive, as for vs terran, they can just build marin
On December 30 2011 17:44 CecilSunkure wrote: Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass.
Keep in mind a lot of the games from the replay pack are vs low master KR or mid-high master NA, since then with my MMR being proper I've only been playing top masters or GMs, and still have beaten TSL Revival and another TSL zerg in playhems with the build... If they don't go fast hydra, or like 8 minute muta, I don't think anything can hold unless I mess up.
Actually queens/lings and 4/5 spines at the front hold this pretty easily. And not 4 queens but 8/9.
Thanks for this idea/build! Just tried it and was strong, just rolled the zerg. I was way late and it still worked very well. Actually is improving my game by just focusing on FF (still platinum).
I could see mass ling possibly being a problem, but will have to check your replays, I'm sure you have been there, done that.
Hey, thanks for the nice build and the nice guide.
Have tried this a few times and although I cannot verify how viable some beforementioned counters are, I think it really adds up nicely in terms of mechanics and using CB/res efficiently.
On December 31 2011 02:05 matrius wrote: Actually, one question if you don't mind - do you ever make an observer? I'm guessing not since you never mentioned it - not worth the gas?
What is there to observe? In 1v1 maps he doesn't even send a scouting probe.
btw I had tons of fun and success last night trying this build. Thank you very much, Lobber, for your work on it and this thread.
On December 31 2011 02:05 matrius wrote: Actually, one question if you don't mind - do you ever make an observer? I'm guessing not since you never mentioned it - not worth the gas?
What is there to observe? In 1v1 maps he doesn't even send a scouting probe.
btw I had tons of fun and success last night trying this build. Thank you very much, Lobber for your work on it and this thread.
he's not the scout and react kind of player that's for sure >.<
On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote: i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs.
Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push.
I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote: i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs.
Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push.
I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly...
As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd.
Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help.
Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries.
As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution.
The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective.
9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used.
Edit:
On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote: and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army.
3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
On December 31 2011 09:14 Kajarn wrote: Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd.
Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help.
Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries.
As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution.
The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective.
9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used.
On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote: and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army.
3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
There's no way you play the same way vs ffe as you do vs gateway openers, especially 1 base protoss. How can you possibly compare preparing for gateway allins off 2 base with 3base roachling vs this 1 base robo allin? You're not going to be able to drone the whole time after you scout no expo at the right time and will have to sac ovie/prepare asap for multiple kinds of allins. May I ask which league you are in?
This is pretty strong even if you see it coming, I'd imagine some losses are to underestimating the power of it since it's not very common.
On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote: i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs.
Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push.
I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly...
As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
fair enough! I wish I could watch twitch VODs right now so I could reference the exact VOD/time of the game I was talking about-- would help discussion/refinement of this build, and I also kind of want to review it a bit too. Unfortunately twitch thinks I haven't installed shockwave and I can't watch anything. (live streams are fine tho? o_O )
On December 31 2011 09:14 Kajarn wrote: Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd.
Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help.
Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries.
As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution.
The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective.
9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used.
On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote: and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army.
3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
3 queens at the top of the ramp can't transfuse anything, and if I just engage normally and ff them into the main zerg loses all the same, what's the point of mass queen if half of them aren't useful.
I noticed that you can get close to the same army with only 3 gates. Lobber, have you ever tried expanding off it? I'm guessing you are going to say "with such a high success rate, why fix whats not broke?" but just wondering what you've found out, as I'm guessing you've tested that scenario as well?
On December 31 2011 21:43 matrius wrote: I noticed that you can get close to the same army with only 3 gates. Lobber, have you ever tried expanding off it? I'm guessing you are going to say "with such a high success rate, why fix whats not broke?" but just wondering what you've found out, as I'm guessing you've tested that scenario as well?
There's no good way to expand with this tbh, maybe expo off the warpprism harass and do a different tech path, but that's about it.
I tried it out... I screwed up a lot, but it still steamrolled my opponent. TBH The only thing I can see breaking this is some kind of roach timing that hits before your immortal is out. Even then, it won't do enough damage. I feel I float a lot of minerals though, so would it just be best to build gateways earlier?
On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote: i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs.
Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push.
I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly...
As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Wrong ... Queens will kill your warp prism ... This is exactly what my opponent tried. Also i wasn't completly blind and reacted to my opponent's move.
really strong strategy. As Zerg I've played against this a few times before seeing this thread and assumed there had to be a thread somewhere lol.
With perfect elevatoring you can take on pretty much anything. Mass ling is not an answer. The best way ive found is at least 5 queens, some spines (at least 3) and roaches anyways. Lings wont really do anything while there are FFs, youre better off to reionforce with ling after the all FFs are used up though.
Even so I only hold it half the time, so there might be a better way.
I still think that as long as you scout it, mass ling with a few roaches holds this just fine off of 2 bases and a macro hatch. You can even rush Lair and go Ling/Hydra which I used to tear this apart. You get amazing creep spread due to the lack of an obs so your Hydras are much more effective.
Very powerful all in if unscouted, but the WP-Immortal gives it away anyway.
I've lost to this build once with mass ling/roach when I had 3 bases including the gold. It depends heavily on your opponent not seeing your warp prism. I've also beat it a few times by just going 2 hatch muta after preparing for other 1 base all-ins and scouting what they were doing, but if you harass well with the warp prism that kind of response is a lot less likely to work out. Definitely a strong build for a bo3.
On January 02 2012 07:27 navy wrote: really strong strategy. As Zerg I've played against this a few times before seeing this thread and assumed there had to be a thread somewhere lol.
With perfect elevatoring you can take on pretty much anything. Mass ling is not an answer. The best way ive found is at least 5 queens, some spines (at least 3) and roaches anyways. Lings wont really do anything while there are FFs, youre better off to reionforce with ling after the all FFs are used up though.
Even so I only hold it half the time, so there might be a better way.
How can you elevator with queens or hydras sniping the WP before it can even come in? If you go mass ling, you should get up to 6 queens, 2 for injects and 3-4 to snipe the WP to shut down the elevator that comes with the push.
OK, thanks for the reply Lobber. Um, another idea popped into my head (last one I promise!) - what about doing a FFE, but not actually expanding, and then doing your build? On maps like shakuras you could wall off, sink in like 300 minerals into forge and cannon, but have natural protected and then just do build normally, but be able to safely expand if you needed too...
I know a lot of zerg will just drone drone drone seeing a FFE setup, and that first drop would be devastating. Only thing would be fast muties happen quite a bit vs ffe, so have to make sure that the attack is on time (although you could easily scout this with the drop). What do you think?
On December 31 2011 21:43 matrius wrote: I noticed that you can get close to the same army with only 3 gates. Lobber, have you ever tried expanding off it? I'm guessing you are going to say "with such a high success rate, why fix whats not broke?" but just wondering what you've found out, as I'm guessing you've tested that scenario as well?
There's no good way to expand with this tbh, maybe expo off the warpprism harass and do a different tech path, but that's about it.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
On January 02 2012 21:41 matrius wrote: OK, thanks for the reply Lobber. Um, another idea popped into my head (last one I promise!) - what about doing a FFE, but not actually expanding, and then doing your build? On maps like shakuras you could wall off, sink in like 300 minerals into forge and cannon, but have natural protected and then just do build normally, but be able to safely expand if you needed too...
I know a lot of zerg will just drone drone drone seeing a FFE setup, and that first drop would be devastating. Only thing would be fast muties happen quite a bit vs ffe, so have to make sure that the attack is on time (although you could easily scout this with the drop). What do you think?
I think an overlord will be able to spot the lack of a nexus, and the zerg will cancel his 3rd and go into major defense mode. For example, on shakuras, my overlord can be in your natural early enough even on cross position. Since zergs normally want to scout protoss's gas timings, they will send at least one overlord by your natural. While zerg's response is delayed until he scouts your lack of nexus, so will you, because you built a forge and a cannon.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it? And "zealot on hold position" part is just hilarious.
On January 02 2012 07:27 navy wrote: really strong strategy. As Zerg I've played against this a few times before seeing this thread and assumed there had to be a thread somewhere lol.
With perfect elevatoring you can take on pretty much anything. Mass ling is not an answer. The best way ive found is at least 5 queens, some spines (at least 3) and roaches anyways. Lings wont really do anything while there are FFs, youre better off to reionforce with ling after the all FFs are used up though.
Even so I only hold it half the time, so there might be a better way.
How can you elevator with queens or hydras sniping the WP before it can even come in? If you go mass ling, you should get up to 6 queens, 2 for injects and 3-4 to snipe the WP to shut down the elevator that comes with the push.
Then you just bait FFs and keep massing lings.
There are so many "you just" posts in this thread. Everything is so easy in theory, then you get to practice where it looks like the protoss is about to do a gate expand and you build a few roaches and suddenly a warp prism arrives out of nowhere and blows half your mineral line up. Or it looks like the protoss is going to do an immortal drop on you and you get a bunch of queens and zerglings, and suddenly he's at your ramp with a colossus and a handfull of sentries.
All these "you just" posts so far are assuming you know from the beginning that this push is coming when it's way more common to be up against a FFE or a 3-gate expand in which case mass queens+lings are kind of worthless. If you instead look at the choices you can make when you actually scout this build it's no longer "you just", but "you must".
EDIT: I'd say this build or variations on it will be for PvZ what 4-gating was in PvP; the build that always has to be taken into account.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it?
To be honest I routinely go zealot before core and make sure I have a probe hotkeyed to block with a pylon just in case as sometimes you just end up scouting the 6-pool too late. Doesn't really put you behind more than a few seconds, so I don't see the point of taking the risk of going core before zealot.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it?
To be honest I routinely go zealot before core and make sure I have a probe hotkeyed to block with a pylon just in case as sometimes you just end up scouting the 6-pool too late. Doesn't really put you behind more than a few seconds, so I don't see the point of taking the risk of going core before zealot.
Your habit of getting zealot before core is very sweet but we are talking about a very specific bo with very specific play style (no scouting and stuff). So unless your playing style has something to do with the topic keep it to yourself.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it?
To be honest I routinely go zealot before core and make sure I have a probe hotkeyed to block with a pylon just in case as sometimes you just end up scouting the 6-pool too late. Doesn't really put you behind more than a few seconds, so I don't see the point of taking the risk of going core before zealot.
Your habit of getting zealot before core is very sweet but we are talking about a very specific bo with very specific play style (no scouting and stuff). So unless your playing style has something to do with the topic keep it to yourself.
I can tell you're really fond of your playing style (by the sound of it you 6-pool every game) and you really want to keep winning with it, but A: even if the exact BO in the OP is a loss to a 6-pool on small maps most zergs don't 6-pool as they know they die if it's held and B: a tiny variation of the BO on small maps renders 6-pools useless. Is it ok to discuss variations of the original build order, or do you think I should start [D] The 1 base immortal drop in PvZ, possible variations ? Don't you think the discussion of this BO actually belong in THIS thread, even though parties in that discussion disagree with you?
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it?
To be honest I routinely go zealot before core and make sure I have a probe hotkeyed to block with a pylon just in case as sometimes you just end up scouting the 6-pool too late. Doesn't really put you behind more than a few seconds, so I don't see the point of taking the risk of going core before zealot.
Your habit of getting zealot before core is very sweet but we are talking about a very specific bo with very specific play style (no scouting and stuff). So unless your playing style has something to do with the topic keep it to yourself.
I can tell you're really fond of your playing style (by the sound of it you 6-pool every game) and you really want to keep winning with it, but A: even if the exact BO in the OP is a loss to a 6-pool on small maps most zergs don't 6-pool as they know they die if it's held and B: a tiny variation of the BO on small maps renders 6-pools useless. Is it ok to discuss variations of the original build order, or do you think I should start [D] The 1 base immortal drop in PvZ, possible variations ? Don't you think the discussion of this BO actually belong in THIS thread, even though parties in that discussion disagree with you?
Clearly you can tell wrong. I dont even 1v1 as zerg for months now (i'm protoss lol). Sent you a PM with invitation for a test. See you in game if you really wonna clear it out.
On January 02 2012 22:16 Cheerio wrote: Well this build gets countered by 6 pool which is pretty popular now.
Get zealot before core, use a temporary pylon or a few probes until the stalker pops? The BO with 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 core, and zealot on hold position is perfectly standard and only requires the usual changes to hold 6 pools.
I know its standard, and it standardly loses to well executed 6 pool. You think 6 pool is so bad you can hold it with no scouting and yet people get GM with it?
To be honest I routinely go zealot before core and make sure I have a probe hotkeyed to block with a pylon just in case as sometimes you just end up scouting the 6-pool too late. Doesn't really put you behind more than a few seconds, so I don't see the point of taking the risk of going core before zealot.
Your habit of getting zealot before core is very sweet but we are talking about a very specific bo with very specific play style (no scouting and stuff). So unless your playing style has something to do with the topic keep it to yourself.
I can tell you're really fond of your playing style (by the sound of it you 6-pool every game) and you really want to keep winning with it, but A: even if the exact BO in the OP is a loss to a 6-pool on small maps most zergs don't 6-pool as they know they die if it's held and B: a tiny variation of the BO on small maps renders 6-pools useless. Is it ok to discuss variations of the original build order, or do you think I should start [D] The 1 base immortal drop in PvZ, possible variations ? Don't you think the discussion of this BO actually belong in THIS thread, even though parties in that discussion disagree with you?
Clearly you can tell wrong. I dont even 1v1 as zerg for months now (i'm protoss lol). Sent you a PM with invitation for a test. See you in game if you really wonna clear it out.
Clear what out, exactly? Oh, wait, I know! You're one of those little kids that believe that no matter what the discussion is actually about, the one that wins a game is right?
Tobias, the ones like you should be baned from strategy section. You have no idea what you are talking about, instead of proving your point you start flaming (if i say 6 pool is good and counters a build than im surely someone who can win only by 6 pooling which is also ad hominem) the opponent, and you are not even remotely interested in the simplest test (what build is simplier to test than 6 pool?) to uncover the trooth and flame me for proposing to do that.
On January 03 2012 02:48 Cheerio wrote: Tobias, the ones like you should be baned from strategy section. You have no idea what you are talking about, instead of proving your point you start flaming (if i say 6 pool is good and counters a build than im surely someone who can win only by 6 pooling which is also ad hominem) the opponent, and you are not even remotely interested in the simplest test (what build is simplier to test than 6 pool?) to uncover the trooth and flame me for proposing to do that.
You start out by telling me to shut up and then start talking about ad hominem? You're a piece of work, really
But are you saying that 9 pylon, 13 gate, 17 zealot, 17 core with pylon block and a few probes does NOT stop a 6-pool? I don't really see why we need to play a match to see it.
I'm not a GM, but I know these facts: 1) a 6 pool will get to your base before a 13 gateway will spit out a zealot 2) if you can scout, you should chrono boost your zealot but even so you might not quite make it 3) a pylon next to the nexus, and then a gateway next to the pylon/nexus handily takes care of this 4) as the gateway is building, put a pylon near a ramp, and then follow up with the core and a gateway to close the gap
I do this build all the time, I usually make a zealot before core, and ALWAYS make a zealot right away if I haven't been able to scout and will only lose a couple of probes with a little micro vs a 6 pool because my zealot pops just as the zerlings get to the mineral line, and they are always way behind. You can always scout the opponent by the time the gateway is building, and in that case you just chrono zealots and put pylons next to your nexus and you can't lose. I've done it and after the initial rush had 4 zealots and had killed all his zerglings, I walled off and was like 10 workers ahead. Made a small army and pushed and it was over, because the zerg HAS to drone hard to even stay in the game, so a counter attack will always either win or inflict a lot of damage, they really can't recover without doing a lot of damage with the 6 pool. I got this from one of the gosu's on this site, can't remember which one right now...
The only time a zerg beat me in mid-high diamond with this was when they knew it was coming from a previous game. They did a variation of a 10 pool and caught be before zealot was blocking. This DOES work but requires a large commitment of zerglings from the zerg and little to no macro/teching early game.
Generally once the zealot is in place this build is very difficult to stop, but as the OP admitted it can be beaten. I do have somewhat of an issue with zergs saying that just early mass lings beats this, as any zerg that does so can generally fall easily to this build. I imagine what the OP said about lots of spines/queens/lings with a defensive posture would work a lot better.
Ok everyone, you can hold 6 pools fine if you just make your 2nd pylon covering the gateway and pull probes, don't engage until the zealot is out and you should be even, do the build normally after than and you're fine, 6 pools are not the problem, things like 8-10 pool are much worse...
This seems a lot like a tvp 1/1/1 to me. Warp prism is equivalent to banshee and any harrassment u do is just a plus because the army you are sending can't be killed with what they can have at the time.
I think this build will straight up lose to Stephano's mass ling however. Being so short on zealots means you will die because no matter how many lings your stalkers and sentries kill there will always be dozens more. So you go to his main and ff it? So what, you are on 1 base with no option of ever taking your nat, your main's minerals will dry up in a matter of minutes and you still have no way of killing his army.
Hey there. I was looking through the replay pack and I didn't actually see an encounter where the zerg had 8~ish spines, i'm low diamond and losing when they mass spines/lings like that.
when you say elevator, is there something i'm missing? manually picking up and dropping off the units seems sluggish, i must be doing something wrong. any input would be appreciated, thank you.
On January 05 2012 17:29 buchholtz wrote: Hey there. I was looking through the replay pack and I didn't actually see an encounter where the zerg had 8~ish spines, i'm low diamond and losing when they mass spines/lings like that.
when you say elevator, is there something i'm missing? manually picking up and dropping off the units seems sluggish, i must be doing something wrong. any input would be appreciated, thank you.
If they have 8 spines, you can elevator into the main and just win.
8 drones and 800 minerals, plus the econ damage that the initial harassment will have done will make this a really easy engagement-- if he has 8 spines, it means he spent 800 minerals and 8 drones with an already weakened economy. If he had the minerals to invest that heavily into static defense at this point, he really can't have any units/tech/econ at all.
okay, but what i'm wondering is, there somethign i'm missing with the term "elevator"? cause when i try to bring my units up, it feels sluggish, and that's a solid 15+ units i'm trying to move up as fast as possible. is there a trick i'm missing? i was looking through the replays to see the best way to do it but i couldn't find one wher ehe had to elevator.
okay, but what i'm wondering is, there somethign i'm missing with the term "elevator"? cause when i try to bring my units up, it feels sluggish, and that's a solid 15+ units i'm trying to move up as fast as possible. is there a trick i'm missing? i was looking through the replays to see the best way to do it but i couldn't find one wher ehe had to elevator.
On January 05 2012 17:29 buchholtz wrote: Hey there. I was looking through the replay pack and I didn't actually see an encounter where the zerg had 8~ish spines, i'm low diamond and losing when they mass spines/lings like that.
when you say elevator, is there something i'm missing? manually picking up and dropping off the units seems sluggish, i must be doing something wrong. any input would be appreciated, thank you.
Quick question, I have noticed that you've been experimenting recently with sentry drops in this build which allows you to go warp prism before immortals and get a quicker drop. Also, I've seen you push out earlier with 3 immortals instead of waiting for the 4th.
I guess my question is, what benefits are there to doing these things and in what circumstances would you alter the build, especially focusing on the second change that I listed.
On January 09 2012 00:57 Revelatus wrote: Quick question, I have noticed that you've been experimenting recently with sentry drops in this build which allows you to go warp prism before immortals and get a quicker drop. Also, I've seen you push out earlier with 3 immortals instead of waiting for the 4th.
I guess my question is, what benefits are there to doing these things and in what circumstances would you alter the build, especially focusing on the second change that I listed.
ty <3
Just want to not do the same thing every time, the best way to prep for each build is slightly different, if I'm always doing the same one it's easier to counter, I think slightly more sentry heavy, and the sentry drop itself has a lot more potential to do harass damage, and the push is stronger...
I don't really alter it for specific reasons other than testing, if I scouted earlier I'd consider maybe a harder hitting but less harass potential version vs gas expo, vs gasless or hatch first I'd do sentry drop version.
I just lost to this build. Very frustrating. You hold back on lair and drones because of it's 1 base nature, but then you can't utilize hydras or mutas or speedroaches to deal with it.
Maybe make extra queens, just 3-5 spines? As mentioned, elevator play with units on the low ground covering can sort of work around spines so I'm not sure how to deal with this.
Hey lobber, I actually just lost a game where the zerg went for fast hydra. My thought is that if I see a lair morphing with my harassing warp prism and dont see a roach den, then I should push early and get there before the hydra. Does that sound right?
On January 10 2012 06:47 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote: Hey lobber, I actually just lost a game where the zerg went for fast hydra. My thought is that if I see a lair morphing with my harassing warp prism and dont see a roach den, then I should push early and get there before the hydra. Does that sound right?
That's one method, if you know the timing of their lair and gas, and how much gas they've mined, you can figure out when your push needs to be in ff position at their natural. Hard to say, fast hydra can crush this build if they do it right.
^ your post doesnt make sense. you can't overreact enough against a 1 base all-in and an early pool isn't going to gimp the zerg that much against this late 1 base play (unless obviously they did something like 6 pool, in which case its just an all in that fails).
On January 10 2012 15:56 Belial88 wrote: ^ your post doesnt make sense. you can't overreact enough against a 1 base all-in and an early pool isn't going to gimp the zerg that much against this late 1 base play (unless obviously they did something like 6 pool, in which case its just an all in that fails).
You can have over 10 roaches and 70 +1 speedlings by the time this hits, just attack it as it moves across the map. don't rely on spines vs immortals
On January 10 2012 15:56 Belial88 wrote: ^ your post doesnt make sense. you can't overreact enough against a 1 base all-in and an early pool isn't going to gimp the zerg that much against this late 1 base play (unless obviously they did something like 6 pool, in which case its just an all in that fails).
You can have over 10 roaches and 70 +1 speedlings by the time this hits, just attack it as it moves across the map. don't rely on spines vs immortals
I've been playing against this build two ways; Hydra ling and Muta ling.
Hydra ling seems to be the better choice as you trade extremely cost efficient assuming you have a lot of hydras and can afford quite a few off 4 geysers. I see this build a lot so when I know it's coming I'll drone extremely hard while teching freely up to the hydras and +1.
Mutaling is also great because you get 8 spines and about 12 mutas by the time it hits so you can deny any elevators or harass. Once they pull back you just swarm with lings and focus stalkers/guardian shielding sentries.
This build is great if they don't know it's coming but I think due to its popularity it's become very easy to metagame.
Also, the stalker/immortal drop never does anything, ever. I honestly think it's pointless.
On January 10 2012 15:56 Belial88 wrote: ^ your post doesnt make sense. you can't overreact enough against a 1 base all-in and an early pool isn't going to gimp the zerg that much against this late 1 base play (unless obviously they did something like 6 pool, in which case its just an all in that fails).
You can have over 10 roaches and 70 +1 speedlings by the time this hits, just attack it as it moves across the map. don't rely on spines vs immortals
You would drone hard vs 1 base protoss?
Well the early robo is a giveaway, it's not like there are any other builds that you see 1 base wp harass pvz.
does anyone have a drop.sc for these? i can't get the replays to unzip, they stay as .rar and i just can't get it to work, if anyone knows what to do, that would be awesome. EDIT: Nvm i finally got it to work, there are a lot of replays O.o
On January 10 2012 09:05 Sated wrote: I'd totally forgotten about this build over the holidays, glad I rediscovered it. It just does so much damage to a Zerg who isn't prepared, and any Zerg who over-reacts will find themselves unable to deal with the follow-up push that comes from the Protoss. Absolutely love it! I've found that this is especially good against Zergs who go for an early pool - they gimp themselves quite heavily in exchange for making you expand more slowly, but if you weren't planning on expanding in the first place then this timing completely blows them out of the water!
ah, you were talking about the wp harass, my bad :D
I had similar ideas about a 1base robo play but i always get a bad feeling when trying to end a game with a one base push. Guess that comes from before i played random, when i was zerg.
This can fairly easily be stopped if the zerg cuts drones at around 30 and builds 4 spines and mass lings/roach. And scouting it is really easy; no expo, warp prism harass etc.
Even if the protoss decides to fake it and not attack, you are still in a really good spot, seeing that you have 2 base vs 1 more workers and a good sized army.
On January 11 2012 07:25 TigerKarl wrote: I had similar ideas about a 1base robo play but i always get a bad feeling when trying to end a game with a one base push. Guess that comes from before i played random, when i was zerg.
You should feel bad...this is about as all-in as a build can be, on one base. It feels filthy.
But when they leave without GG, you can't help but smile.
Since this is such an all-in, what's the point of the warp prism harass? The OP says that its supposed to force units out of the Zerg, but don't you want him to drone up so your all-in will be met with little resistance? Seems a little counter-productive.
On January 15 2012 13:00 WalkofLife wrote: Since this is such an all-in, what's the point of the warp prism harass? The OP says that its supposed to force units out of the Zerg, but don't you want him to drone up so your all-in will be met with little resistance? Seems a little counter-productive.
Because then a 2 base zerg who has map awareness and sees you're on 1 base will cut drones at 40-45 (which can at around 7:30) and then have a full 2 mins to make spines/roaches before you even MOVE OUT.
On January 10 2012 15:56 Belial88 wrote: ^ your post doesnt make sense. you can't overreact enough against a 1 base all-in and an early pool isn't going to gimp the zerg that much against this late 1 base play (unless obviously they did something like 6 pool, in which case its just an all in that fails).
You can have over 10 roaches and 70 +1 speedlings by the time this hits, just attack it as it moves across the map. don't rely on spines vs immortals
You would drone hard vs 1 base protoss?
Well the early robo is a giveaway, it's not like there are any other builds that you see 1 base wp harass pvz.
Doesn't the zealot/sentry drop in the main while forcefielding the ramp fit this criteria? That's a pretty fucking obnoxious harass if there ever was one.
Hide this thread. More and more Zerg are aware of it. My win rate with this has dropped from around 90% to about 80%.
Very powerful build but I have encountered a lot of BM after winning with this. I could contribute a lot to the "Confusing BM" thread just because of this build.
Oh for anyone who looks at this thread, I haven't done it in the style I wrote up about in weeks... I actually have an economical expand variant that's been working vs good GMs, but follows the same basic idea. Good stuff.
On January 15 2012 13:53 Lobber wrote: Oh for anyone who looks at this thread, I haven't done it in the style I wrote up about in weeks... I actually have an economical expand variant that's been working vs good GMs, but follows the same basic idea. Good stuff.
On January 15 2012 13:53 Lobber wrote: Oh for anyone who looks at this thread, I haven't done it in the style I wrote up about in weeks... I actually have an economical expand variant that's been working vs good GMs, but follows the same basic idea. Good stuff.
Please provide a replay. If you follow the OP it is definitely an all-in. I would be interested in the expansion timing of your "economical" variant of this build as I have been trying different variations myself in custom games. The problem is that I feel like my expansion timing is too late. Robo before Expansion doesn't seem to cut it, especially when you don't do an insane amount of damage to the Zerg.
I'm thinking of making a large guide of "one base PvZ, with a large number of replays (~5) replays/strategy with maybe ~20 builds shown, and a pretty extensive write up on all the builds/replays... Might be a few weeks in coming though, I really like robo/immortal based builds, not a lot of other 1 base styles though, but testing them all might be nice... I'll see how it goes over the next couple days.
I'm actually liking the idea of spending all my games testing slightly weird, and more fun entertaining strategies, and trying to make them valid to win games, even if the strategy is known. It should making games more fun to play, and expand my knowledge... Maybe I will make this a thing.
I juste created my TL account 3 minutes ago. Before that I've been a lurker for 2 years on TL. And I finally made an account to thank you ! I was getting tired of all the strategies and you really show us the potential of the Protoss with this BO. I just love it. One more time thanks for your contribution, it is really helpful.
You really needed a thread to show you the potential of protoss?!? Its a nice build imo, but if the zerg can surround ur army in the center of the map it might get tricky
I would really like to see a more economical version of this build, feels kind dirty to do a one base all in. It has the stench of 5 racks no gas or marine scv all in
Maybe it's just me but the thought of immortals and warp prism off of one base in PvZ is going to be all in regardless. I don't think you can expand behind that without doing ridiculous damage and still be in the game. You basically need to get the Main or natural hatch or at very least a few queens drones and the pool.
On January 15 2012 15:31 Lobber wrote: I'm thinking of making a large guide of "one base PvZ, with a large number of replays (~5) replays/strategy with maybe ~20 builds shown, and a pretty extensive write up on all the builds/replays... Might be a few weeks in coming though, I really like robo/immortal based builds, not a lot of other 1 base styles though, but testing them all might be nice... I'll see how it goes over the next couple days.
I'm actually liking the idea of spending all my games testing slightly weird, and more fun entertaining strategies, and trying to make them valid to win games, even if the strategy is known. It should making games more fun to play, and expand my knowledge... Maybe I will make this a thing.
Do it! I love the warp prism all-in now, it frankly reminds me of a PvZ 1-1-1, in the sense that if the Zerg doesn't respond properly, he will auto-lose. Kind of like how most Protosses had no clue what to do vs 1-1-1 for a decent time :p I've become pretty competent at executing this warp prism all-in, if you'd like to teach me the other builds and want help writing the guides I'd be glad to help out in any way possible
This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss
On January 15 2012 15:31 Lobber wrote: I'm thinking of making a large guide of "one base PvZ, with a large number of replays (~5) replays/strategy with maybe ~20 builds shown, and a pretty extensive write up on all the builds/replays... Might be a few weeks in coming though, I really like robo/immortal based builds, not a lot of other 1 base styles though, but testing them all might be nice... I'll see how it goes over the next couple days.
I'm actually liking the idea of spending all my games testing slightly weird, and more fun entertaining strategies, and trying to make them valid to win games, even if the strategy is known. It should making games more fun to play, and expand my knowledge... Maybe I will make this a thing.
Do it! I love the warp prism all-in now, it frankly reminds me of a PvZ 1-1-1, in the sense that if the Zerg doesn't respond properly, he will auto-lose. Kind of like how most Protosses had no clue what to do vs 1-1-1 for a decent time :p I've become pretty competent at executing this warp prism all-in, if you'd like to teach me the other builds and want help writing the guides I'd be glad to help out in any way possible
And a lot like the 1-1-1 there's a lot of different variations, a lot of different timings and compositions with the warp prism haras, it could even be some sort of 4 gate warp prism all in, they don't really know. You can go colossus, immortal, sentry heavy, or anything really... Good adaptive style.
On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote: This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss
are you doing the build, or a variation? i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants? i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^
On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote: I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
I've been using this strategy a lot, but it has stopped working recently. Like someone said: lots and lots of +1 lings crush this beautiful strategy. Plus, if my opponent holds it with lings-drones-queen and spines (because now they know this is an all-in), they simply go Muta and the game ends.
It is, indeed, a finely designed and awesome strategy. I've won more than 20 PvZs using this, but now Zergs are reacting accordingly and things are getting pretty nasty for me. Again.
Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course)
On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote: I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote: Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking nat of course)
You also lose if you cut drones too early. You can hold it if you are on full 2 base economy with full production. For example, I've held it pretty straightforwardly with about 40 drones massing lings off of 3 hatcheries (and getting upgrades) and a lot of queens to focus down the prism and heal things. However, if I overreact early on, my drone count is too low to get the infrastructure and units in time. For example one game I misread my opponent and thought it was going to be one base blinkstalker, and started ling production way too early, this set my droning back a few larva cycles, and the 3rd hatch was delayed, and I couldn't muster enough units to stop it.
Only doing this on one map currently, Arid plateau. Great map for it and people mostly react wrongly. But it's insanely hard for zerg to stand a chance if i can get behind his nat, making a wall with his hatch, nothing can basicly hurt me. Used to do it alot some months back, still a great strategy to know and whip out at times!
On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote: This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss
are you doing the build, or a variation? i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants? i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^
edit: repz plz?
add in a forge for +1 attack so you two shot the lings
your attack is already late enough for it to finish anyways
On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote: This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss
are you doing the build, or a variation? i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants? i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^
edit: repz plz?
add in a forge for +1 attack so you two shot the lings
your attack is already late enough for it to finish anyways
You can also go double cybercore and mix in +1/+1 air upgrades with 2 void rays and 1 carrier. Has the merit to surprise the zerg.
On January 17 2012 16:42 Let it Raine wrote: 17 pages for a 1 base strategy
i think you guys should invest in a macro game
On some maps in some positions, hem hem metalocrosspos hem hem, playing macro game vs zerg is really hard, I mean you have to be way better to win so it's good to have some others options
On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote: Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course)
On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote: I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers.
Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry.
On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote: Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course)
On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:
On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote: I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers.
Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry.
You can get up to like 15 spines by the time his attack comes. Also keep in midn that you should have 1-2 BW control group s of lings in your main to prevent the ff ramp and attack. Plus what I do is always while he attacks the natural, I plant down spines in my main to prepare for his elevator drop.
This build is realliy powerful, and I would definitely use it in a best of 3. But the problem is if you scout it, then you can stop it easily if you know what to do.
one base protoss should never work if the zerg is doing his due diligence. The only way it would work is if you use this against him, such as nexus fake, army/pylons on low ground, etc. Also I would imagine taking the watchtower with your warp prism units rather than running your whole damn army into vision like you said.
On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote: Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course)
On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:
On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote: I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers.
Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry.
You can get up to like 15 spines by the time his attack comes. Also keep in midn that you should have 1-2 BW control group s of lings in your main to prevent the ff ramp and attack. Plus what I do is always while he attacks the natural, I plant down spines in my main to prepare for his elevator drop.
This build is realliy powerful, and I would definitely use it in a best of 3. But the problem is if you scout it, then you can stop it easily if you know what to do.
Absolutely, it's very stoppable. It's a fun build to bust out every now and then (especially in close air positions), but I'm done doing it on the ladder. No point in using a build that you can't really execute any better for something as meaningless as ladder points.
I do want to work on a warp prism harass expand build that would transition into something with blink in case the Zerg goes mutas, I don't know if it would be possible to make that a safe build or not though.
Yea upgrades, lair, and hydras should never be out in time to deal with this.
You have to use queens, lots of transfuse. Hopefully you identify it's a 4 gate robo instead of regular fast 4 gate, and you don't cut too many drones. The longer you drone up, the better off you'll be. Then you just go 1 gas roach/ling/spine with queen support. After you hold it off initially you just go 2 base lair mass roach/ling and deny third for a long time.
The reason this build is so deadly is that if you cut too many drones, you won't have the production to make enough units. sentry/immortal is really quite impossible to deal with for zerg on anything less than 3 base hatch tech or 2 base lair, so if you cut drones around 20-30 like you do against normal 4 gates, you'll be screwed and probably lose. You have to really power up the drones and get like 40ish drones quickly, and the sooner you realize it's a 4 gate robo and not normal 4 gate, the better. Queens take a while to build too, so if you recognize the robo too late and didn't start making queens, that can hurt.
I'd wonder if a good response to this is to throw down a macro hatch. I'm not sure if you should go 3 hatch 2 gas or 1 gas though (or really, if you should go 2 hatch 1 gas or 2 gas. I always go just 1 gas, roaches aren't that great).
I face this build regularly and I have to say I am surprised cause I don't feel it is that threatening, (although some people may have difficulties with it). I personnally go 3 hatchs (to mass speedlings), not necessarily a macro hatch (why not expand?) prefer gold if you can, stay low on drones (like around 35/40), take two gas; and mass up speedlings with +1 melee upgrade, while slowly teching to hydras (which usually come as a reinforcement during the push). I don't make spines except if I managed my macro badly and have too much minerals, because they are bad against immortals and zealots; I don't make extra queens either, or roaches for the same reason. Just put pressure with your speedlings while he is moving out, to delay the push and force some forcefields, and engage in a open space... I met some expand variation with this build. So when you killed the push, do not counter, rather drone a lot, and transition to spire (good vs robo) while being careful about some extra cheese like DTs.
Doing this, at my low master level, is kind of free win...
It hits 1min later than your push (10min for 2, 12 for 3), solves ling problem, much easier to drop micro, lets you get prism spd, 6range on colo is strong bait to make them want to target it when you drop micro and take 0 shots from roaches much like this vid: I wouldn't say it's bad, unless you think your own play is bad >.> b/c it's pretty much the same thing
This really makes me wonder... would it be possible to do a FFE build into a 2 base variation of this that hits at similar time? With the extra economy it'll be possible to pull out 2 robos and more gates right...?
On January 19 2012 06:35 JohnnySC wrote: It hits 1min later than your push (10min for 2, 12 for 3), solves ling problem, much easier to drop micro, lets you get prism spd, 6range on colo is strong bait to make them want to target it when you drop micro and take 0 shots from roaches much like this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98 I wouldn't say it's bad, unless you think your own play is bad >.> b/c it's pretty much the same thing
You just lose to mutas, and you can still lose to mass ling, or roach pretty easily, also much much more easy to lose beacause of a micro mistake with that build.
what are you talking about, its just the reverse of your build. you can lose to mass lings with the immortal strat and you have to warp zlots to counter balance. all you have to do is warp in some stalkers, as you said in your post. your going to scout with the harass anyways and reading mutas is a lot more obvious than any other build they do since it is full proof vs mass lings and its retarded to go roach muta that early on. I still have yet to lose vs mass lings. And you know as well as I do that mutas are horrible units that early on vs 4sentry + stalkers. I do lose to corruptors sometimes, but it rarely ever comes up and they're still dead b/c of the amount they invest just to kill 2colo. No range colo are the ultimate bait and I am confident that my micro is much better than theirs. So, I'll agree with you that doing it with colo isn't good for people in lower low masters/below that can't handle the micro. =D
First I want to thank you, amazing build that I've been using and haven't lost with :D
However, just recently I faced a zerg that got an early baneling nest and just busted down my zealot at the front door before my prism was able to scout the next. the bust and zerglings weren't enough to win (only at gold level), it did force me to push a minute late with 1 less immortal. I do feel like in Masters it could definitely be a problem. Have you ever faced a zerg that got a bnest? how did you react?
I do something similar, but im just high diamond whos sniffing on the master-flower...
If they go for no gas i usually chrono 2nd zealot and a stalker and go for early aggression, sometime they make misstakes and i can snipe a queen or something.
Then i drop the more common 2 zealot 2 sentry and snipe probes, dont want to show my immortals pre the main attack And you soon notice if you should go more zealot or stalker heavy, specialy after the main drop.
On January 21 2012 11:01 tKoCrawl wrote: First I want to thank you, amazing build that I've been using and haven't lost with :D
However, just recently I faced a zerg that got an early baneling nest and just busted down my zealot at the front door before my prism was able to scout the next. the bust and zerglings weren't enough to win (only at gold level), it did force me to push a minute late with 1 less immortal. I do feel like in Masters it could definitely be a problem. Have you ever faced a zerg that got a bnest? how did you react?
Thanks : )
Transition in to losing. Honestly I have no idea =D
On January 21 2012 11:01 tKoCrawl wrote: First I want to thank you, amazing build that I've been using and haven't lost with :D
However, just recently I faced a zerg that got an early baneling nest and just busted down my zealot at the front door before my prism was able to scout the next. the bust and zerglings weren't enough to win (only at gold level), it did force me to push a minute late with 1 less immortal. I do feel like in Masters it could definitely be a problem. Have you ever faced a zerg that got a bnest? how did you react?
Thanks : )
I've never had a baneling bust attempt before my 3rd gateway unit was out (sentry). I'm not sure it's possible. Once that sentry (the first of many sentries coming out of that gate) is out you can buy a lot of time or even make him waste most of his banelings.
I've never done this but I heard dropping an immortal on banelings and picking it up again is a lot of fun :D
On January 19 2012 08:45 ctypewriter wrote: This really makes me wonder... would it be possible to do a FFE build into a 2 base variation of this that hits at similar time? With the extra economy it'll be possible to pull out 2 robos and more gates right...?
Holy shit that sounds like it would be so much fun... having TWO warp prisms and harass with both of them simultaneously? sounds like a party 2 me :D I'm gonna see if I can come up with a reasonable build involving warp prism immortal harass off of an FFE and what sort of timing attack would be the strongest...
This is a really great 1base build to challenge ur opponents micro. This is working really well at diamond level where zerg tend to rely heavily on their macro to beat one base all ins.
To any lower level players working on an immortal build like this, the key is getting the 4 sentries as early as possible to save up energy, and then hitting those FF perfectly, also make sure to FF the ramp, as if u kill the expo its GG for the zerg. Also keep ur WP behind ur army just on the edge of creep, if u lose ur WP its GG as you normally don't have a reinforcing pylon.
I recommend not doing the WP harras until the rest of ur build is finely tuned. What I'm doing atm is getting the WP first out of the robo and scouting (I know) with it, and then going to the watch tower and warping in a zealot to take it. Many times the zerg will overeact by overbuilding units at this stage of the game and you can deny the zerg information as to when the push is coming, making it harder to hold the 10 minute push.
With perfect army positioning and micro/ff's I dont think this push is possible to hold. That amount of FF combined with that DPS makes this push down right imbalanced. (fun idea: try doing this push without any sentries and see how hard you get crushed by just about anything except pure roach, it will really make you repect the power of good FF vs zerg).
On January 19 2012 08:45 ctypewriter wrote: This really makes me wonder... would it be possible to do a FFE build into a 2 base variation of this that hits at similar time? With the extra economy it'll be possible to pull out 2 robos and more gates right...?
Holy shit that sounds like it would be so much fun... having TWO warp prisms and harass with both of them simultaneously? sounds like a party 2 me :D I'm gonna see if I can come up with a reasonable build involving warp prism immortal harass off of an FFE and what sort of timing attack would be the strongest...
Unfortunately I think any immortal timing off a FFE loses to muta, would have been a nice non-allin idea though.
On January 18 2012 18:32 Macpo wrote: I face this build regularly and I have to say I am surprised cause I don't feel it is that threatening, (although some people may have difficulties with it). I personnally go 3 hatchs (to mass speedlings), not necessarily a macro hatch (why not expand?) prefer gold if you can, stay low on drones (like around 35/40), take two gas; and mass up speedlings with +1 melee upgrade, while slowly teching to hydras (which usually come as a reinforcement during the push). I don't make spines except if I managed my macro badly and have too much minerals, because they are bad against immortals and zealots; I don't make extra queens either, or roaches for the same reason. Just put pressure with your speedlings while he is moving out, to delay the push and force some forcefields, and engage in a open space... I met some expand variation with this build. So when you killed the push, do not counter, rather drone a lot, and transition to spire (good vs robo) while being careful about some extra cheese like DTs.
Doing this, at my low master level, is kind of free win...
when i see (like lubber said) mass lings i switch to 5 gate instead of 3 gate pumping only zealots.it becomes more easy to win vs mass lings.
sadly zergs finally know how to counter this now TT, however on xelnaga map it still works very well if u manage to snipe a couple of ovies and get good force fields
I am loving this build alot and I feel it is the best PvZ allin there is, however in its current form it is ironically vulnerable to a 7rr from zerg due to the fast tech to robo. I wanted to request that someone uploads a replay of how to get up the robo as fast as possible while being safe from the 7rr, I know that alot of ppl will say just get sentries etc, but when I try it I dont have enough sentries to hold the ramp and my immortal is too late (they snipe my buildings at ramp with ovie vision). Could someone please help me with a BO as I am terrible with that type of thing.
Note: (I normally get a Wp from the robo first to scout)
On January 26 2012 02:18 Host- wrote: this build is so frustrating to play against..I can smell it a mile away, have a larger army, 6+ spines, and still lose.
I have been doing alot of testing with a friend and mass ling +1 and spinecrawler rape this pretty hard (with slow tech to hydra)
On January 26 2012 02:07 AfricanPsycho wrote: I am loving this build alot and I feel it is the best PvZ allin there is, however in its current form it is ironically vulnerable to a 7rr from zerg due to the fast tech to robo. I wanted to request that someone uploads a replay of how to get up the robo as fast as possible while being safe from the 7rr, I know that alot of ppl will say just get sentries etc, but when I try it I dont have enough sentries to hold the ramp and my immortal is too late (they snipe my buildings at ramp with ovie vision). Could someone please help me with a BO as I am terrible with that type of thing.
Note: (I normally get a Wp from the robo first to scout)
follow the build order properly and get immortal first. you don't want to scout with warp prism cause you don't want them to know your tech until the last possible second. this build should hardcounter roach rushes.
scout the z with your worker for as long as possible. once you have warp prism with immortal and 2 stalkers in it then you can harass and scout at the same time
I just faced this today and I got absolutely crushed. I scouted 1 base robo and suspected warp prism drop and once I saw immortals and such I instantly remembered this thread. Now it seems to me that spinecrawlers are kind of useless, so from what I've gathered the focus should be on +1 ling and queen? No roaches at all?
On January 26 2012 02:27 Blezza wrote: A guy did this on ladder but I just held off the WP and beat his army with roach ling. Only mid diamond but the build didn't seem amazing or anything.
I think ive only lost to this once on ladder and ive faced it maybe 6-7 times. I think the key to holding it off is engaging toss before they reach yur base with a zergling heavy force to drain some FF. After that i think a queen, spine, roach and ling mix holds it off quite nice. Although im only 1100 on NA so maybe there is something my opponents arent exploiting.
My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective.
On January 26 2012 14:54 DarKFoRcE wrote: My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective.
Define "a lot of spines+lings" I've beaten people who have had 13 spines with lings to reonforce... It depends on the map, some naturals are too narrow for P to break a spine wall but other maps I can target 2-3 down at a time and take 0 losses. Also keep in mind, I can ff your ramp and elevator into the main, if you're too invested into spines you have no great way to stop that. Also, a 1 base colossus all in > spines unless you have mutas out.
The build has gotten less effective since people learnt how to counter a little better, but I just expand with it now and it's still working vs good NA gms, and high master/low gm on KR.
Hey Lobber, I'm a big fan of this build and I was just curious...how has the build been evolving in your latest ladder matches? You mentioned to darkforce that you're now expanding behind the push which I think is great. Has the build evolved in any other way for you or is simply expanding behind the push the biggest and most obvious facet of the build that has evolved?
On January 26 2012 14:54 DarKFoRcE wrote: My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective.
Define "a lot of spines+lings" I've beaten people who have had 13 spines with lings to reonforce... It depends on the map, some naturals are too narrow for P to break a spine wall but other maps I can target 2-3 down at a time and take 0 losses. Also keep in mind, I can ff your ramp and elevator into the main, if you're too invested into spines you have no great way to stop that. Also, a 1 base colossus all in > spines unless you have mutas out.
The build has gotten less effective since people learnt how to counter a little better, but I just expand with it now and it's still working vs good NA gms, and high master/low gm on KR.
You can't commit to a ling / spine defense until you've seen the immortals.
3-4 Spines should be fine to hold this off, they are only intended to delay, along with large numbers of queens and mass +1 speedlings.
The key is drone count, the zerg needs to have a slight drone lead in order to outproduce and defeat the Protoss allin. If the Zerg is making 13 spines then I'm skeptical as to how many drones he had when you hit.
I've read the build itself very carefully, and I'm wondering if you made a mistake. Excuse me if you have not.
The units you should have by 10 min doesn't make sense for only having one gate. And I only see one gate being asked for in the build. So I'm wondering when, and how many gates you'd recommend.
Edit: nm, saw where you said to go up to three.
Secondly, with only 1 zealot to your name, speedlings in midfield present a very dangerous challenge. Forcefields in mid field rarely encase lings into bad positions, but rather, they preserve the stalkers from the lings. Meaning the lings can then get away without suffering heavy loss and sapping FF's which are vital for the push it seems. It's only once you've reached the choke in front of the natural that your army is truly scary. So my question is, how do you prevent being overwhelmed in the midfield?
On January 26 2012 15:27 TsoBadGuy wrote: I've read the build itself very carefully, and I'm wondering if you made a mistake. Excuse me if you have not.
The units you should have by 10 min doesn't make sense for only having one gate. And I only see one gate being asked for in the build. So I'm wondering when, and how many gates you'd recommend.
Edit: nm, saw where you said to go up to three.
Secondly, with only 1 zealot to your name, speedlings in midfield present a very dangerous challenge. Forcefields in mid field rarely encase lings into bad positions, but rather, they preserve the stalkers from the lings. Meaning the lings can then get away without suffering heavy loss and sapping FF's which are vital for the push it seems. It's only once you've reached the choke in front of the natural that your army is truly scary. So my question is, how do you prevent being overwhelmed in the midfield?
Did you download and watch the replay pack he provided? I suggest you take a gander at the matches there and see if perhaps your question is answered.
I've been using this build a lot (helped push me from Plat to top of Diamond). There are several things that seem counter it.
Lots of spines (& roaches or hydras), the longer it takes to break in, the harder it gets for toss.
As others have said, the ling counterpush in the middle of the map can also ruin you (make sure to clear towers with the warp prism).
Lobber, how can you expand out of this? Do you retreat and expand if you see too many spines? What if they go for mutas?
The most effective part seems that Zerg don't really know what's happening and many are aiming straight for mutas and don't even scout after the initial WP attack. I've had some people continue droning or place a third after the initial WP; maybe they think "is that it?" and just carry on.
On January 27 2012 06:12 Magnetz wrote: Lobber, how can you expand out of this? Do you retreat and expand if you see too many spines? What if they go for mutas?
I believe he's already mentionned that when faced with tons of spine crawlers, he skips them by using the warp prism as an elevator to the main.
On January 27 2012 07:05 Let it Raine wrote: honestly 13 spines is an auto loss i dont see how the protoss player loses in that situation
just make lings off of 3 hatches for the quick gg
Doesn't the zerg have 4 (or more) queens in position hitting the warp prism before it can start to elevator? Extra queens and creep in base is pretty important against warp prism.
This is the new 1-1-1. I scout it and react what I think is perfectly and get rolled by 3/4 immortal pushes anyway... 4 spines and 25 more supply of army doesn't even matter. Makes me so sad T.T
when i do this build and i scout either mass lings i switch into a five gate and just go pure zealot sentry. if i see that he has dropped 13 spines with my warpprism then i chrono boost out another one and use two elevators to warp in to their base. i pop in 7 zealots and a sentry with the first round of elevating so that the stalkers and immortals can fire from the low ground. since i have two warpprisms elevating as well as warpins on the first elevator trip i have about 10-13 units in ur base.
when i harrass with the warpprism i find going for queens the most valuable as it reduces dmg to warpprism. unless i am 100% that i will get a spawning pool or roach warren.
Good build. I usually tend to dislike 1-2 base play and want to improve my macro game more and have longer games. But this was a good surprise. 100% win against the 5 zergs I've used this on atm. Will continue perfecting it since Im quite slobby with it atm I think.. Pushes come to late etc, could have been sooner. Chronoboosting wrong stuff accidently. But still works out very good. Thanks for sharing.
I could have chronoboosted out the last immortal more and hit a bit earlier but i still wouldn't have broken him, i've been enjoying a really high win % with this build and this was the first time i've used it and gotten completely crushed
I still do the build on occation, still works, but I don't do the variant in this thread anymore, check out my newer build. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306595 I do it like this, or skip the expasion, depending on the player/map. I think trying to fit in a +1 would be good as well.
On February 11 2012 04:05 Edahspmal wrote: Just played darkforce today and lost, here's the replay
I could have chronoboosted out the last immortal more and hit a bit earlier but i still wouldn't have broken him, i've been enjoying a really high win % with this build and this was the first time i've used it and gotten completely crushed
You basically stopped chronoboosting in general. also, adding 4 gates instead of 3 didn't help. But honestly in my opinion if they're massing that many spines at the front just do an elevator and move your whole army into his main.
I executed really badly and spent more time reading the build than playing (two monitors), and attacked a minute late, but stilll crushed the zerg with no trouble at all.
I've been using a tweaked version of this build for about 1 month. Like someone said in the thread it's more powerful to make a warp prism first and drop with gateway units. With my build the warp prism pops 1 minute earlier and you only need 1 gas. I drop with 3 stalkers and 1 zealot, it deals more DPS and can kill overlords faster than 1 immortal 2 stalkers.
The build order (don't save chronoboosts) : 9 pylon 12 gas first 13 gateway (up to you to scout) 16 pylon 17 cybernetics core Zealot as the gate finishes When the cybernetics core finishes you have 200 gas so you make simultaneously : 1 robo, 1 stalker, the warp gate research Then you chronoboost all 3 stalkers Make a warp prism at 5:45 the warp prism and the 3rd stalker pop at the same time. Take the 3 stalkers and 1 zealot and leave Then it's the same as the 1 base robo pvz, if there are many zerglings I don't take the 2nd gas.
Here are a few replays of this build I played against platinum players. It's really strong and the fact that the warp prism pops 1 minute earlier than Lobber's original version makes it more powerful and zergs don't seem to recognize the build yet.
On January 27 2012 13:43 StarMega wrote: Wouldn't zerg prepare for this upon seeing no expansion and think that an all in is coming?
There's 3 things a zerg will do against a one base protoss when he can't see inside his base. Spines & lings, then roaches and a spore. This build crushes roach ling so hard it's kinda stupid. I've played some games with a friend and even knowing it's coming it's very hard to hold off.
Edit : By "knowing" I mean still playing like I I didn't know based purely on scouting.
What level micro and macro do you need to excecute this against similarly leveled players? In my case I'm low gold high silver, my macro is probably better than that though. Just wondering, because I have little to no micro experience. BTW the thread is great, I love blocks of text
On March 05 2012 06:58 9-BiT wrote: What level micro and macro do you need to excecute this against similarly leveled players? In my case I'm low gold high silver, my macro is probably better than that though. Just wondering, because I have little to no micro experience. BTW the thread is great, I love blocks of text
I've gotten plenty of messages from silver-plat players saying they can win with this build vs diamond level players, I suggest to lower level players trying to work in a +1 attack as well, as your ff micro is going to be less good, +1 zealots help more vs ling based holds.
On February 13 2012 08:39 chuky500 wrote: I've been using a tweaked version of this build for about 1 month. Like someone said in the thread it's more powerful to make a warp prism first and drop with gateway units. With my build the warp prism pops 1 minute earlier and you only need 1 gas. I drop with 3 stalkers and 1 zealot, it deals more DPS and can kill overlords faster than 1 immortal 2 stalkers.
The build order (don't save chronoboosts) : 9 pylon 12 gas first 13 gateway (up to you to scout) 16 pylon 17 cybernetics core Zealot as the gate finishes When the cybernetics core finishes you have 200 gas so you make simultaneously : 1 robo, 1 stalker, the warp gate research Then you chronoboost all 3 stalkers Make a warp prism at 5:45 the warp prism and the 3rd stalker pop at the same time. Take the 3 stalkers and 1 zealot and leave Then it's the same as the 1 base robo pvz, if there are many zerglings I don't take the 2nd gas.
Here are a few replays of this build I played against platinum players. It's really strong and the fact that the warp prism pops 1 minute earlier than Lobber's original version makes it more powerful and zergs don't seem to recognize the build yet.
I looked at your replays and saw this is similar to a variation of the build I've been toying with. In mine I drop with 2 stalkers and 2 sentries, leaving at 6:00. The main attack leaves at about 9:20, just like the original build.
I think this is better than 1 zealot and 3 stalkers because: #1 having a zealot in the drop is not really helpful, he randomly gets surrounded by lings or wanders into crawlers. You want all ranged units so you can drop behind the minerals and easily pick up once your sheilds are gone.
#2 this force kills overlords very quickly, queens and drones reasonably fast, and if you find a good position you can FF in drones or FF out lings (or both!). If they have only lings you can actually drop everything right in the mineral line and drop 2 FFs sealing the workers in and the lings out. Other times you can find yourself in a good position and FF yourself into a corner killing lots of free lings.
#3 you don't drop with your ramp blocker zealot, so you are never vulnerable to a runby.
I think it's better than 1 immortal and 2 stalkers because: #1 it leaves 1 minute earlier #2 faster at killing overlords #3 better at killing workers and lings (see above)
Here is my version: 9 pylon 10 Gas (do not mine until gateway is started) 12 gate (now put 3 on gas) 15 pylon (this is a good time to send scout) 16 cybercore **first 3 chronos on probes, now start saving 16 zealot (can delay to 17 or 18 based on scouting if you like) 20 robo 3:50 20 stalker 23 WG research 24 Gas #2 24 pylon 24 sentry < Chrono 26 stalker < Chrono 28 Warp Prism 5:05 31 pylon 31 sentry < chrono 34 Immortal < chrono (your drop will leave once the 2nd sentry finishes at about 6:00) 38 Gateway #2 38 Pylon
Bring gateways to 4, warp in 2 sentries and 2 stalkers, keep building pylons to avoid supply block, and keep chronoing immortals until you have 3 out and 1 about 1/2 done (rally the robo to your units as you move out). Then it's time to move out at about 9:20. Have them walk to a meet up point where you warp in 3 stalkers and 1 sentry. Alltogether you'll have a similar army composition to lobber -- 5 sentries, 1 zealot, 4 immortals, 7 stalkers.
This version has lots of probe cuts, and in the end you only have about 22, but that is just enough to run your 4 gates.
Yes it'd be nice if you could post a replay. I wonder if dropping with sentries is that useful because when I watch pros drop sentries even if they trap the whole mineral line the forcefields are finished too soon to deal enough damage. I'm also puzzled about your 3 chronoboosts on the Nexus while you cut many probes.
In my build most of the time the zealot often helps killing a queen (I'm in platinum) but I agree another ranged unit would be more useful. Maybe a solution could be to drop 3 stalkers and warp a 4th unit there. About the runby there's a really small window of a few seconds where I don't have the zealot. I could put a temporary pylon but it's not that dangerous because the zerg doesn't know the exact timing and just has to be lucky. I've only had 1 runby and the zealot and immortal popped anyways so it wasn't that bad.
The thing I like about staying on 1 gas for a long time is if the zerg is going for 2 base mutas you can stay on 1 gas, make a 5th gate and make only zealots for the zerglings and make stalkers when mutas are about to pop.
I had a few other cheesy ideas like proxying a 2nd robo since you don't need a pyon to start building with the warp prism. Or hidding a templar archives and a DT shrine since they don't need to be powered to allow the warp in of DTs, but not for the 1 base version of the build.
On March 07 2012 07:33 chuky500 wrote: Yes it'd be nice if you could post a replay. I wonder if dropping with sentries is that useful because when I watch pros drop sentries even if they trap the whole mineral line the forcefields are finished too soon to deal enough damage. I'm also puzzled about your 3 chronoboosts on the Nexus while you cut many probes.
In my build most of the time the zealot often helps killing a queen (I'm in platinum) but I agree another ranged unit would be more useful. Maybe a solution could be to drop 3 stalkers and warp a 4th unit there. About the runby there's a really small window of a few seconds where I don't have the zealot. I could put a temporary pylon but it's not that dangerous because the zerg doesn't know the exact timing and just has to be lucky. I've only had 1 runby and the zealot and immortal popped anyways so it wasn't that bad.
The thing I like about staying on 1 gas for a long time is if the zerg is going for 2 base mutas you can stay on 1 gas, make a 5th gate and make only zealots for the zerglings and make stalkers when mutas are about to pop.
I had a few other cheesy ideas like proxying a 2nd robo since you don't need a pyon to start building with the warp prism. Or hidding a templar archives and a DT shrine since they don't need to be powered to allow the warp in of DTs, but not for the 1 base version of the build.
I agree that sentries aren't that great to drop, though they are certainly fine. The main reason to drop them is that well you are building them anyway (to build up energy). Also I agree, I don't really need 3 CB on probes. I don't like to stay on 1 gas because I like my final army composition to have 4 high energy sentries in it -- they are so good vs lings, roaches, and mutas, and the ability to block their ramp from reinforcing can win games.
I had never considered a build where you leave with some units and warp in to fill up the WP on the way -- I think that's a really good idea, actually. So much so that today I revamped the build to drop 3 stalkers and 1 sentry. I think this is better because I don't cut probes much, the 4 units (3 stalkers and a sentry) make a really nice drop, and the drop leaves at 5:40, a full 20 seconds earlier.
Here is the build: 9 pylon (chrono probes twice) 12 gate 14 gas 15 pylon 16 cyber 17 zealot 21 robo 23 WG research at next 50 gas (chrono 3x) 23 pylon 23 gas #2 (but don't put 3 probes on it until I say!) 24 stalker (chrono x1) <-- I'm actually not sure if this CB is needed, need more testing 26 or 27 Warp Prism [cut probes momentarily] 29 Gateway at 5:05 (now you can put 3 on gas) 29 sentry (chrono x1) [resume probes] 32 or 33 pylon warp prism picks up sentry, stalker, and leaves at 5:40 34 immortal [cut all probes now] 38 stalker x2 at your warp prism at 6:20 42 pylon
The rest is the same: gates to 4, 3 more sentries, a few stalkers, immortals chronoed until you have 3 and 1 half done, move out at 9:20, then meet up with warp prism half way to opponent and reinforce with stalkers
It is interesting to drop so early. I think the way to go is drop right behind their main's mineral line, pick up your units as their shields go, go overlord hunting, and then come back and drop their minerals with full shields. In the lobber version you cant do this because there is so little time for the drop, while this build has between 6:40 and 9:00 for drop shinanigans. When you come back the second time to their minerals it may even be worth it to warp in a zealot or 2 for extra damage (though they are not coming home!).
Hi, I am returning from a long period of inactivity. Played alot in the beta and season 1 diamond 1v1. The game has changed a enough to drop me to silver ^^. I used the with great success last night as the lower level players struggle to deal with harass and the immortal/stalker harass gives me plenty of margin for my timed push off 4 gates worth of units @ the 4 immortal mark.
I ran into a messy situation where a zerg 1 base roach pushed me really early. Before my first immortal was out they had my wallin pylon down. I only have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at this point.
Am I scouting failing this? I noted him not expanding. Is the next move to try and scout his Warren and get a sentry out asap?
The map was shakuras - If a zerg is one-basing on shakuras, can I be expecting a roach push all-in'ish type play here?
I feel that I will encounter this move plenty in my climb up the leagues. What is the best move here.
Apologies if this has been discussed in the thread already, but I could not find such a post/reply.
On March 09 2012 16:16 Rubilac wrote: Hi, I am returning from a long period of inactivity. Played alot in the beta and season 1 diamond 1v1. The game has changed a enough to drop me to silver ^^. I used the with great success last night as the lower level players struggle to deal with harass and the immortal/stalker harass gives me plenty of margin for my timed push off 4 gates worth of units @ the 4 immortal mark.
I ran into a messy situation where a zerg 1 base roach pushed me really early. Before my first immortal was out they had my wallin pylon down. I only have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at this point.
Am I scouting failing this? I noted him not expanding. Is the next move to try and scout his Warren and get a sentry out asap?
The map was shakuras - If a zerg is one-basing on shakuras, can I be expecting a roach push all-in'ish type play here?
I feel that I will encounter this move plenty in my climb up the leagues. What is the best move here.
Apologies if this has been discussed in the thread already, but I could not find such a post/reply.
That's why your first units are zealot stalker sentry and not zealot stalker stalker. The sentry buys you time until the immortal pops out.
Also you shouldn't really be scouting when doing this build, especially if you want to hit the 10' 4 immortal timing.
On March 09 2012 16:16 Rubilac wrote: Hi, I am returning from a long period of inactivity. Played alot in the beta and season 1 diamond 1v1. The game has changed a enough to drop me to silver ^^. I used the with great success last night as the lower level players struggle to deal with harass and the immortal/stalker harass gives me plenty of margin for my timed push off 4 gates worth of units @ the 4 immortal mark.
I ran into a messy situation where a zerg 1 base roach pushed me really early. Before my first immortal was out they had my wallin pylon down. I only have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at this point.
Am I scouting failing this? I noted him not expanding. Is the next move to try and scout his Warren and get a sentry out asap?
The map was shakuras - If a zerg is one-basing on shakuras, can I be expecting a roach push all-in'ish type play here?
I feel that I will encounter this move plenty in my climb up the leagues. What is the best move here.
Apologies if this has been discussed in the thread already, but I could not find such a post/reply.
I just had this happen to me on ladder, here's the replay (high-ish master)
Not the best control but you can see I hold it relatively easily and there's no way he can hold the counter attack.
This build fucking slays!!! I'm a high diamond Protoss and I use this against all my Zerg randoms since I don't know how to gate expand anymore and don't want to ever against zerg. Haven't lost with it yet, about 10 games in. Since I'm using it against randoms, they are extra confused
It works really well i have a pretty high win rate with it (70% or so) in mid plat. I have been trying to learn a FFE build and failing misserably at it and break out the lobber build here and there to get a couple wins v Z
Sick build! This build slays zergs who overdrone or who defends with roaches.
However, I am having a tough time with this build against a pure ling + spine crawler defence. Oftentimes, zerg creep spread is so far that I have to go on creep to attack. Then what happens is 30 lings come out of nowhere and waste my FFs, and eventually the lings wear me down and I lose my entire army.
What would be the proper way to scout mass lings, and what should I do against that?
EDIT: I don't think this build works on maps like Shattered and Metal, where a close-by-air zerg would easily see the robo and know it's a 1 base robo all-in really early on...
On March 09 2012 16:16 Rubilac wrote: Hi, I am returning from a long period of inactivity. Played alot in the beta and season 1 diamond 1v1. The game has changed a enough to drop me to silver ^^. I used the with great success last night as the lower level players struggle to deal with harass and the immortal/stalker harass gives me plenty of margin for my timed push off 4 gates worth of units @ the 4 immortal mark.
I ran into a messy situation where a zerg 1 base roach pushed me really early. Before my first immortal was out they had my wallin pylon down. I only have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at this point.
Am I scouting failing this? I noted him not expanding. Is the next move to try and scout his Warren and get a sentry out asap?
The map was shakuras - If a zerg is one-basing on shakuras, can I be expecting a roach push all-in'ish type play here?
I feel that I will encounter this move plenty in my climb up the leagues. What is the best move here.
Apologies if this has been discussed in the thread already, but I could not find such a post/reply.
I just had this happen to me on ladder, here's the replay (high-ish master)
Not the best control but you can see I hold it relatively easily and there's no way he can hold the counter attack.
Do you normally not scout early game Geiko? Your Warp Prism went all the way around the map trying to find the Zerg. Seems risky to me, curious about this though.
On March 27 2012 04:50 LOLZEY wrote: Sick build! This build slays zergs who overdrone or who defends with roaches.
However, I am having a tough time with this build against a pure ling + spine crawler defence. Oftentimes, zerg creep spread is so far that I have to go on creep to attack. Then what happens is 30 lings come out of nowhere and waste my FFs, and eventually the lings wear me down and I lose my entire army.
What would be the proper way to scout mass lings, and what should I do against that?
EDIT: I don't think this build works on maps like Shattered and Metal, where a close-by-air zerg would easily see the robo and know it's a 1 base robo all-in really early on...
If you scout mass ling. with your warprism throw down another gateway and skip stalkers. I like to transition into a 5gate zealot sentry at that point.
Plat player here, started doing this instead of a Stalkerless PvZ 3+ base I found on TL as well. Just straight-up rolls through Zergs at this level who don't know what's coming.
Also really solid against Random Zergs IMO, as FFE isn't really an option when they're random and I think gate expands are pretty bad now. I'd rather do some timing like this which isn't 'standard' and murder them with something they're not likely to know about.
So.. What does zerg do to defend this? Just played a game where I knew an all in was coming (though I didn't know it was exactly this) and I had ~5 spines and a bunch of roach/ling but he completely crushed my defense. What's the correct response from zerg? I was thinking I could have had hydras out by then, would that have helped?
On December 02 2011 09:33 Lobber wrote:I'll use it in all my PvZs for today
It must be very boring to play protoss and only do all ins instead of actually playing the game.
I guess it must be boring to play Terran and Zerg too, Terran 1-1-1 50% of games and Zerg 6pool 30% of games.
On a positive note, I've perfected this build and its REALLY strong. The timing is crucial, leave the base at 9:30 and attack at around 10:00, right before hydras or mutas.
Currently around 90% win PvZ with this build ( Against 700+ masters). When I lose its because of my own mistakes.
For exemple, theres a map where you can't warp prims elevator and I still tried and failed. If they kill your warp prism its pretty much over.
This build's strength seems to be the fact that Zerg don't know how to react. If they get down plenty of spines (and actually make units) then it makes it much less effective and forces you to WP elevator which slows you down and leaves room for mistakes.
I've also found that you need to at least get a queen with the initial drop, or something significant to distract them.
I've found that if they position their pool poorly (behind minerals creating a choke), you can focus it down rather quickly. I think its worth it since it limits the number of queens/ spines, and lings available, and is expensive in general. If they have tech besides roaches though its a bad idea.
This build is held off by ling spine, third queen for creep and attacking shuttle, great awareness in the main, and a transition to lair for hydras off 2 gas at start so that you have enough minerals and drones for all the ling spine u make.
EPT
Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
defo gonna try this, thx for sharing!
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