|
On January 26 2012 02:07 AfricanPsycho wrote:
I am loving this build alot and I feel it is the best PvZ allin there is, however in its current form it is ironically vulnerable to a 7rr from zerg due to the fast tech to robo. I wanted to request that someone uploads a replay of how to get up the robo as fast as possible while being safe from the 7rr, I know that alot of ppl will say just get sentries etc, but when I try it I dont have enough sentries to hold the ramp and my immortal is too late (they snipe my buildings at ramp with ovie vision). Could someone please help me with a BO as I am terrible with that type of thing.
Note: (I normally get a Wp from the robo first to scout)
follow the build order properly and get immortal first. you don't want to scout with warp prism cause you don't want them to know your tech until the last possible second. this build should hardcounter roach rushes.
scout the z with your worker for as long as possible. once you have warp prism with immortal and 2 stalkers in it then you can harass and scout at the same time
|
A guy did this on ladder but I just held off the WP and beat his army with roach ling. Only mid diamond but the build didn't seem amazing or anything.
|
I just faced this today and I got absolutely crushed. I scouted 1 base robo and suspected warp prism drop and once I saw immortals and such I instantly remembered this thread. Now it seems to me that spinecrawlers are kind of useless, so from what I've gathered the focus should be on +1 ling and queen? No roaches at all?
|
On January 26 2012 02:27 Blezza wrote:
A guy did this on ladder but I just held off the WP and beat his army with roach ling. Only mid diamond but the build didn't seem amazing or anything.
doesnt matter the league, its easy to stop.
probably shouldnt be making roaches though.
|
I think ive only lost to this once on ladder and ive faced it maybe 6-7 times. I think the key to holding it off is engaging toss before they reach yur base with a zergling heavy force to drain some FF. After that i think a queen, spine, roach and ling mix holds it off quite nice. Although im only 1100 on NA so maybe there is something my opponents arent exploiting.
|
My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective.
|
On January 26 2012 14:54 DarKFoRcE wrote:
My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective.
Define "a lot of spines+lings" I've beaten people who have had 13 spines with lings to reonforce... It depends on the map, some naturals are too narrow for P to break a spine wall but other maps I can target 2-3 down at a time and take 0 losses. Also keep in mind, I can ff your ramp and elevator into the main, if you're too invested into spines you have no great way to stop that. Also, a 1 base colossus all in > spines unless you have mutas out.
The build has gotten less effective since people learnt how to counter a little better, but I just expand with it now and it's still working vs good NA gms, and high master/low gm on KR.
|
Hey Lobber, I'm a big fan of this build and I was just curious...how has the build been evolving in your latest ladder matches? You mentioned to darkforce that you're now expanding behind the push which I think is great. Has the build evolved in any other way for you or is simply expanding behind the push the biggest and most obvious facet of the build that has evolved?
edit: me no spell good
|
On January 26 2012 15:07 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 14:54 DarKFoRcE wrote:
My personally intuition is that many people will underestimate the strength of the push and will be too greedy to get enough spines, but with enough spines and lots of lings it should be possible to hold this. i remember seeing something like this one time on ladder, might not be exactly this variation and maybe my opponent messed up... but immortals are so slow at walking over the map and as i saw that he didnt get an expansion i just built alot of spines and lings and held easily.
also, 1 base protoss allins kinda went out of fashion, so oftentimes people will skimp on scouting and just assume P will expand and they can drone. against people who do this, this push should be very effective. Define "a lot of spines+lings" I've beaten people who have had 13 spines with lings to reonforce... It depends on the map, some naturals are too narrow for P to break a spine wall but other maps I can target 2-3 down at a time and take 0 losses. Also keep in mind, I can ff your ramp and elevator into the main, if you're too invested into spines you have no great way to stop that. Also, a 1 base colossus all in > spines unless you have mutas out. The build has gotten less effective since people learnt how to counter a little better, but I just expand with it now and it's still working vs good NA gms, and high master/low gm on KR.
You can't commit to a ling / spine defense until you've seen the immortals.
3-4 Spines should be fine to hold this off, they are only intended to delay, along with large numbers of queens and mass +1 speedlings.
The key is drone count, the zerg needs to have a slight drone lead in order to outproduce and defeat the Protoss allin. If the Zerg is making 13 spines then I'm skeptical as to how many drones he had when you hit.
|
I've read the build itself very carefully, and I'm wondering if you made a mistake. Excuse me if you have not.
The units you should have by 10 min doesn't make sense for only having one gate. And I only see one gate being asked for in the build. So I'm wondering when, and how many gates you'd recommend.
Edit: nm, saw where you said to go up to three.
Secondly, with only 1 zealot to your name, speedlings in midfield present a very dangerous challenge. Forcefields in mid field rarely encase lings into bad positions, but rather, they preserve the stalkers from the lings. Meaning the lings can then get away without suffering heavy loss and sapping FF's which are vital for the push it seems. It's only once you've reached the choke in front of the natural that your army is truly scary. So my question is, how do you prevent being overwhelmed in the midfield?
|
On January 26 2012 15:27 TsoBadGuy wrote:
I've read the build itself very carefully, and I'm wondering if you made a mistake. Excuse me if you have not.
The units you should have by 10 min doesn't make sense for only having one gate. And I only see one gate being asked for in the build. So I'm wondering when, and how many gates you'd recommend.
Edit: nm, saw where you said to go up to three.
Secondly, with only 1 zealot to your name, speedlings in midfield present a very dangerous challenge. Forcefields in mid field rarely encase lings into bad positions, but rather, they preserve the stalkers from the lings. Meaning the lings can then get away without suffering heavy loss and sapping FF's which are vital for the push it seems. It's only once you've reached the choke in front of the natural that your army is truly scary. So my question is, how do you prevent being overwhelmed in the midfield?
Did you download and watch the replay pack he provided? I suggest you take a gander at the matches there and see if perhaps your question is answered.
|
I've been using this build a lot (helped push me from Plat to top of Diamond). There are several things that seem counter it.
Lots of spines (& roaches or hydras), the longer it takes to break in, the harder it gets for toss.
As others have said, the ling counterpush in the middle of the map can also ruin you (make sure to clear towers with the warp prism).
Lobber, how can you expand out of this? Do you retreat and expand if you see too many spines? What if they go for mutas?
The most effective part seems that Zerg don't really know what's happening and many are aiming straight for mutas and don't even scout after the initial WP attack. I've had some people continue droning or place a third after the initial WP; maybe they think "is that it?" and just carry on.
|
On January 27 2012 06:12 Magnetz wrote:
Lobber, how can you expand out of this? Do you retreat and expand if you see too many spines? What if they go for mutas?
I believe he's already mentionned that when faced with tons of spine crawlers, he skips them by using the warp prism as an elevator to the main.
|
use immortals to kill spines till shield is out
let immortals regen shield
|
honestly 13 spines is an auto loss i dont see how the protoss player loses in that situation
just make lings off of 3 hatches for the quick gg
|
On January 27 2012 07:05 Let it Raine wrote:
honestly 13 spines is an auto loss i dont see how the protoss player loses in that situation
just make lings off of 3 hatches for the quick gg
Thats a diffrent story if you elevator with your warprism .....
|
On January 27 2012 07:05 Let it Raine wrote:
honestly 13 spines is an auto loss i dont see how the protoss player loses in that situation
just make lings off of 3 hatches for the quick gg
Doesn't the zerg have 4 (or more) queens in position hitting the warp prism before it can start to elevator? Extra queens and creep in base is pretty important against warp prism.
|
not sure what youre asking
i dont make extra queens, i make 3, one for each hatch. some other people in here make extra queens, sounds cute i guess.
i just a-move 500 upgraded lings around till he leaves the game
|
|
|
This is the new 1-1-1. I scout it and react what I think is perfectly and get rolled by 3/4 immortal pushes anyway... 4 spines and 25 more supply of army doesn't even matter. Makes me so sad T.T
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
