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On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote:
This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss
are you doing the build, or a variation?
i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants?
i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^
edit: repz plz?
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I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
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On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings.
Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
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Anyway to get some replays of this? That would be nice please and thankyou 
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I've been using this strategy a lot, but it has stopped working recently. Like someone said: lots and lots of +1 lings crush this beautiful strategy. Plus, if my opponent holds it with lings-drones-queen and spines (because now they know this is an all-in), they simply go Muta and the game ends.
It is, indeed, a finely designed and awesome strategy. I've won more than 20 PvZs using this, but now Zergs are reacting accordingly and things are getting pretty nasty for me. Again.
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Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something.
However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too 
nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course)
On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings. Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience.
if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
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On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in. However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking nat of course)
You also lose if you cut drones too early.
You can hold it if you are on full 2 base economy with full production. For example, I've held it pretty straightforwardly with about 40 drones massing lings off of 3 hatcheries (and getting upgrades) and a lot of queens to focus down the prism and heal things.
However, if I overreact early on, my drone count is too low to get the infrastructure and units in time.
For example one game I misread my opponent and thought it was going to be one base blinkstalker, and started ling production way too early, this set my droning back a few larva cycles, and the 3rd hatch was delayed, and I couldn't muster enough units to stop it.
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Only doing this on one map currently, Arid plateau. Great map for it and people mostly react wrongly. But it's insanely hard for zerg to stand a chance if i can get behind his nat, making a wall with his hatch, nothing can basicly hurt me. Used to do it alot some months back, still a great strategy to know and whip out at times!
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17 pages for a 1 base strategy
i think you guys should invest in a macro game
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On January 16 2012 11:39 buchholtz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote:
This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss are you doing the build, or a variation? i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants? i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^ edit: repz plz?
add in a forge for +1 attack so you two shot the lings
your attack is already late enough for it to finish anyways
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On January 17 2012 16:45 Let it Raine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 11:39 buchholtz wrote:On January 16 2012 09:53 Depravity wrote:
This is absolutely FANTASTIC . I have always had trouble with PVZ because i could never learn how to pressure, WITH THIS - I actually have a 80% chance of winning. If not more . I'll post replays soon . Im a high masters toss are you doing the build, or a variation? i'm high diamond and a lotttt of people are seeing this coming, i'm wondering if you have come up with some interesting variants? i mean they see it comign and i still usually win, but it'd be nice to put a diff spin on it ^^ edit: repz plz? add in a forge for +1 attack so you two shot the lings your attack is already late enough for it to finish anyways
You can also go double cybercore and mix in +1/+1 air upgrades with 2 void rays and 1 carrier.
Has the merit to surprise the zerg.
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On January 17 2012 16:42 Let it Raine wrote:
17 pages for a 1 base strategy
i think you guys should invest in a macro game
On some maps in some positions, hem hem metalocrosspos hem hem, playing macro game vs zerg is really hard, I mean you have to be way better to win so it's good to have some others options
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Hmm i will have to try this. *bookmarked* thanks man ^^
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On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something. However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course) Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings. Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience. if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold...
No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers.
Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry.
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On January 18 2012 09:51 soLremarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something. However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course) On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings. Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience. if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold... No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers. Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry.
You can get up to like 15 spines by the time his attack comes. Also keep in midn that you should have 1-2 BW control group s of lings in your main to prevent the ff ramp and attack. Plus what I do is always while he attacks the natural, I plant down spines in my main to prepare for his elevator drop.
This build is realliy powerful, and I would definitely use it in a best of 3. But the problem is if you scout it, then you can stop it easily if you know what to do.
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interesting game, warp prisms are gay xD
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I have doubts that any one base protoss attack will ever work. protoss just has to expand..
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one base protoss should never work if the zerg is doing his due diligence. The only way it would work is if you use this against him, such as nexus fake, army/pylons on low ground, etc. Also I would imagine taking the watchtower with your warp prism units rather than running your whole damn army into vision like you said.
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On January 18 2012 10:08 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 09:51 soLremarK wrote:On January 17 2012 15:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Someone did this to me today. I haven't been playing much lately so i hadn't heard of this before. I fended off the prism harass with ease (lings), but then made the mistake of droning -- i didn't poke his nat before droning, which was my fatal flaw. Silly me! Didn't think it was an all-in, thought maybe he had a hidden expo or something. However, now that i've seen this, i'll never fall for this nonsense again. Simple to hold -- had i cut drones permanently and kept pumping spines & +1lings, woulda been a simple GG. imo this build is MUCH easier to deal with than other allins. It's strength was its surprise factor, but now (for me) that's gone too nice gimmick build tho, nonetheless. i must admit it will grant freewins if the Zerg isn't aware that it's an allin/no expo (his fault, like me, for not poking/having ovie at nat of course) On January 16 2012 13:09 soLremarK wrote:On January 16 2012 11:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I wouldn't compare this to a 111, it's just much easier (from a Zerg's perspective) to hold. 30 drones, spines, queens, and +1 lings. Doesn't really work, too many spines and I just elevator into the main (I personally scout the number of spines with the warp prism and 2 stalkers, if he is making lots of spines (like more than 6) I add a second warp prism to do a double-elevator into his main). And if the Zerg is massing lings, you go 5-gate zealot sentry. The lings will die too quickly to be effective in my experience, I've killed Zergs with over a 100 zerglings and a few spines. Hydra is the only thing that seems to be able to consistently beat it (with lings and a few spines) in my experience. if you're able to freely elevator into the main without insta landing on top of +1 lings then your opponent is doing it wrong. Z should have vision around the main, should be able to react w/ slings in time to catch the drop. stalkers below the cliff wont do a thing, unlike rine/hellion elevators. Also, 5g off 1 base just makes the build that much more inefficient/ez pz to hold... No, it doesn't matter if he has +1 lings there, you still have your army on the cliff so all your ranged units will still be hitting the lings. It's for all intents and purposes the same as engaging anywhere else (your entire army is participating in the fight), except you also bypass any investment he put into spine crawlers. Also, you can support 5-gates off of 1 base if you are only making zealot sentry. You can get up to like 15 spines by the time his attack comes. Also keep in midn that you should have 1-2 BW control group s of lings in your main to prevent the ff ramp and attack. Plus what I do is always while he attacks the natural, I plant down spines in my main to prepare for his elevator drop. This build is realliy powerful, and I would definitely use it in a best of 3. But the problem is if you scout it, then you can stop it easily if you know what to do.
Absolutely, it's very stoppable. It's a fun build to bust out every now and then (especially in close air positions), but I'm done doing it on the ladder. No point in using a build that you can't really execute any better for something as meaningless as ladder points.
I do want to work on a warp prism harass expand build that would transition into something with blink in case the Zerg goes mutas, I don't know if it would be possible to make that a safe build or not though.
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Yea upgrades, lair, and hydras should never be out in time to deal with this.
You have to use queens, lots of transfuse. Hopefully you identify it's a 4 gate robo instead of regular fast 4 gate, and you don't cut too many drones. The longer you drone up, the better off you'll be. Then you just go 1 gas roach/ling/spine with queen support. After you hold it off initially you just go 2 base lair mass roach/ling and deny third for a long time.
The reason this build is so deadly is that if you cut too many drones, you won't have the production to make enough units. sentry/immortal is really quite impossible to deal with for zerg on anything less than 3 base hatch tech or 2 base lair, so if you cut drones around 20-30 like you do against normal 4 gates, you'll be screwed and probably lose. You have to really power up the drones and get like 40ish drones quickly, and the sooner you realize it's a 4 gate robo and not normal 4 gate, the better. Queens take a while to build too, so if you recognize the robo too late and didn't start making queens, that can hurt.
I'd wonder if a good response to this is to throw down a macro hatch. I'm not sure if you should go 3 hatch 2 gas or 1 gas though (or really, if you should go 2 hatch 1 gas or 2 gas. I always go just 1 gas, roaches aren't that great).
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EPT
