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On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat?
Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
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The anchor to this build is the warp prism. If you see a P stay on 1 base for so long, I think making non stop queens isn't a bad choice. The standard 1 base all-ins from toss are dts, stargate or 4gate. So having extra queens helps out in each situation.
Also, with range 7 against air, the 4 or so queens can deter warp prisms.
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When I saw the post title, my first thought was, oh shit, that sounds like the build Lobber used against me! Lo and behold, here you are..
If you guys have any doubts about this build being buff as hell, take it from a zerg on the receiving end... Even scouted, it's still unbelievably strong.
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On December 02 2011 10:46 Jackal888 wrote:
Lobber, I like the idea of this build... Im going to watch the replay pack tonight and have a go at it with some practice partners. I would suggest that Micro limitations would probably pose the biggest challenge in pulling this off. Do you consider your micro to be particularly good?
Not amazing but good, ffs and knowing which units to do what with is troublesome sometimes but at higher and higher levels the build gets more in favor of protoss because micro makes it better for P and Z.
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if i played toss all id do is 4 gate = P
User was warned for this post
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Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
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On December 02 2011 11:35 floatingbee wrote:
Just saw VODs from playhem between you and HuK and recognized you're a very good player! Now you come with this build to save me from my PvZ FFE failure hell, thanks! Gonna learn your replay and put it into use later!
<3
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I used a similar build extensively against zergs before the warp prism buff, when it was often too weak and could get focused down by Queens. I haven't done it recently since I have a new FFE build that focuses on taking a quick fourth expand that I am working on.
Here's my experience:
Do not block him from expanding; if you manage to block the expo you should have FFE'd. Instead of going gate-core-gate-robo, go gate-core-robo. and build 2 zealots and a stalker. Send the 2 zealots out ahead timed so that they will be 1/2 way to his base when your stalker catches up with them. Try and kill his queen or at least force zerglings to be built.
Chrono out the warp prism as your first unit from the robo, rallied to pick up your zealots and stalkers, while you expand at home and build 3 more gateways and start pumping immortals and sentries. If you time it right you will pick them up just as they are surrounded by zerglings and losing their shields. Fly the prism around between their main and expo, but come back home to protect your expo if they continue to pump units.
This does serious economic damage while nearly guaranteeing your natural goes up, if it turns out he didn't drone and just pumped units so he can deny your expo, you cancel a gateway and nexus and 3 gate robo push for the win.
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Heya Lobber, very interesting build! I've been experimenting with 1 base robo plays for a very long while now, and I've refined a build with a very similar concept: harass with a warp prism to force units out rather than allowing the zerg to freely drone and then ultimately push out with some form of a death ball several minutes later. But rather than doing a 3 immortal push at the 10 minute mark, I push out with 2-3 colossus at the 12 minute mark.
+ Show Spoiler +WARNING: Some of these videos may be loud! Turning the Harass to a Committed Attack - Seizing a Win When Possible Harass does no real damage, but it forces lings/roaches. Colossus push vs Roaches at the 12 minute mark. Harass does little damage on my part, but it forced lings. Colossus push vs Lings/Spine Crawlers/Mutas at the 13.5 minute mark. ... and probably my favorite: Failing a Committed Attack But Recovering with a Juke
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On December 02 2011 11:58 Natengall wrote:Heya Lobber, very interesting build! I've been experimenting with 1 base robo plays for a very long while now, and I've refined a build with a very similar concept: harass with a warp prism to force units out rather than allowing the zerg to freely drone and then ultimately push out with some form of a death ball several minutes later. But rather than doing a 3 immortal push at the 10 minute mark, I push out with 2-3 colossus at the 12 minute mark. + Show Spoiler +
I have a similar build where I open gas first and same thing, warprism harass into 3 colossus (with range) leaving my base at ~10 minutes with 4 gate backing it up with the warp prism.
Also have a like 80% winrate with that one vs GMs...
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Just tried it and won pretty convincingly...I think I <3 you. Now to practice and refine.
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ive seen this build in action; works pretty well.
I do know the answer to this build but i don't think i will give it out until I'm bored using this strat =D
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interesting, will check some replays
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Thanks for posting the build - will check it out.
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On December 02 2011 12:51 CuHz wrote:
ive seen this build in action; works pretty well.
I do know the answer to this build but i don't think i will give it out until I'm bored using this strat =D
I ran through 5 games with zoohairs trying to counter it knowing it's coming, after the 4th game he can counter it more or less, there's about a 5 second window where I can win, if I don't hit it, or the maps to big I lose, if not I can win...
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On December 02 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat? Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down.
Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4.
However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up  Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
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only one question: the reason to delay scout by so much or just gave up on scouting
dont that makes you outright lost to pool before 10 sometimes 10 pool(if smaller map and got scout fast)
which i found very common on mid-dia KR ladder
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On December 02 2011 15:14 Conquerer67 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:43 FLiP491 wrote:On December 02 2011 10:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:24 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 10:15 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 02 2011 09:53 Lobber wrote:On December 02 2011 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
This would lose to the 4 queen no gas build, "Spanishwa style" that isn't too popular anymore. They have 4 queens, a spine, about 6 lings, and assuming that they see the warp prism with an ovie en route to your base, I can't imagine them losing. Did you even read the post? What does 6 lings a spine and 4 queens have to do with a 10 minute large army push? Yeah a lot of queens could shut down the warprism harass but only queens to defend it is still useless as I can drop in the main and just kite them to death... Yes, I "even read the post." Clearly I was referring to the warp prism harass. If you shut down the warp prism harass, you can drone, and shit on the push. I've faced pushes similar to what you're referring to, and you simply need to beat it with mass ling, engaging before they get to you. If you haven't been harassed prior, it shouldn't be challenging. But that's not even true, I've done 0 damage with the warprism harass (vs someone who was purposely hard countering the build) I still beat them easily, the warpprism harass only needs to force earlier units, not actually do damage. Ok, let me clarify since you're not seeming to get it. The reason the 4 queen build works is that it's a build that maximizes your drone count with minimal defense. The 4 queens, few lings (and maybe force a few extra, max) are enough to take on teh 1 immortal / 2 stalker, while Zerg is still droning in the entire process. It's not forcing any more units, save maybe a few lings in exchange for a few drones (which is normal vs 1 base anyways, even fi you don't harass), and he's going to be massively droning. No I understand the spanishiwa style, it doesn't really work that well and it's not popular anymore, but even if he does that I have a warprism and he has slow lings, I can kite him forever and never take damage on my units, I don't have to engage at the spine, so he wastes money and a drone on a spine or 2 at the from, and 3 on lings, then he has to build more and more lings to hold my push, and by my push he might not even have speed for lings or anything... It just wouldn't work vs the push or drop. Immortals and stalkers only tickle queens, wat? Queen: High Health. Stalkers deal 10 dmg, Immortals 20. You have multiple queens (aka 4) with transfuse, they're not going down. Yeah, you've been right for this entire post chain Integral. I just think that the OP fails to recognize that, even with the recent buff to prism shields, queens can still shit on them and anything besides zealots or DTs that are inside them. Especially if you 3 or 4. However, most people, as you said, don't go straight-up Spanishiwa to the bone build anymore (16H/15P?), but if you use the same concept, then you will be able to counter this build and then exploit your econ bonus to do whatever. By which I mean that they FE by any means (11P/18H or 14P/16H), stay gasless until a relatively high supply, and get 3 or 4 queens and a small amount of lings and spines stop attacks in the front. Do that, and pure roach ling can hold it off.
The immortal timing in itself is surprisingly strong. I always open with extra queens, but I think the biggest thing for me when scouting 1 gate robo would be wondering if it's going to be this immortal play, or colossus play, or even somehow a 2gate robo expo.
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this build is actually sick, i ran it in a few practice matches against masters zergs and it basically crushed them with ease even if they scout it or know its coming its still seems pretty unstoppable
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I am using a similar build where I open forge at the bottom of my ramp, make a wall there with Gateway and Cyber and go straight into 2 Immortals with Warpprism with Zealot/Sentry +1 Support and expand to my natural (covered by the already established wall) while attacking. Although the +1 (and the possibility to cannon-rush) imho is a worth the delay of the Gateway the Attack gets overwhelmed more often than not because Zerg can drone on 2 Base for so long. I never considered drop-harassment after just one Immortal and actually Prism after first Immortals fits in much better than 2nd Immortal. Going to try incorperating this into my Build. Thx! :D
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EPT
