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On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote:
I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?
Did you check his timings on the replay, when did he actually hit your front door with his whole force? The execution does make a big difference, I have tons of flaws in my execution still and the only time mutas have ever popped is when I'm in his base and they die pretty fast as they pop or get focused by the ~8 stalkers. Not to mention I think Lobber has the timings down to engagements at ~9:30.
Almost all of my losses came from mass ling, one game some guy had right at 83 lings when I was hitting his base =/. But really the onus is on the protoss to have good FFs and execution in most cases even if the zerg knows its coming. Some Masters guy held me off yesterday and said "what does the guide say to do next?", I lol'd.
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This build is lots of fun, but I have a couple questions:
I started doing a partial wall like the OP, cyber + gateway at the ramp, but sometimes the scouting drone would see what was going on and sit in that spot, delaying my cybernetics. Should I just put the cyber somewhere else and make the partial wall with my 2nd pylon and gateway in that case? Is the reason that is worse that it's more vulnerable to banes?
Also, for the purposes of walking between buildings, am I right that if a zealot can't walk through a zealot-gateway-cyber wall then a ling won't be able to, right? And an immortal will be able to, once I move my blocking zealot?
The guide only goes up to 4 gates. I have been finding my money has been piling up, so I've gone to 6 in some games if I missed some production during the harass. It seems like at least 5 gates is necessary though once you're no longer making anything out of the robo, plus chrono is piling up.
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i just beat Liquid TLO with this on ladder great fun 
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On December 08 2011 23:50 SethDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:07 Kardrion wrote:
I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push? Did you check his timings on the replay, when did he actually hit your front door with his whole force? The execution does make a big difference, I have tons of flaws in my execution still and the only time mutas have ever popped is when I'm in his base and they die pretty fast as they pop or get focused by the ~8 stalkers. Not to mention I think Lobber has the timings down to engagements at ~9:30. Almost all of my losses came from mass ling, one game some guy had right at 83 lings when I was hitting his base =/. But really the onus is on the protoss to have good FFs and execution in most cases even if the zerg knows its coming. Some Masters guy held me off yesterday and said "what does the guide say to do next?", I lol'd.
I feel this is because mass-ling is the correct response. Teching to Hydras seems gimmicky and unncessary. Mass queen / ling / spine should hold off pressure at the front, regardless of FF, and so long as the Zerg is mindful of his base (ie. he can't let himself get FF"d out / in his main and can't let drops do damage) he should not lose.
That said, I am sure Lobber's actual allin is several times harder to hold off, the build designer is always going to have an enormous lead in experience with his build.
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Only times I lose with it are vs people who know it's coming before the game starts, like when I'm practicing with a zerg and I ask him to purposely hard counter it, or vs a GM zerg who I did it to 3 times in a row in a best of 5 (he lost the first to games to it, won the third, then I switch strats.)
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I don't get the point of telling how many times you won with a strat. It's about how effective it is in the end. I like having extra one base plays but I've strayed away from this one because much like a 1/1/1 I feel it's too easy to scout, 1/1/1 atleast is a lot more flexible and keeps me guessing where as you can't exactly do that with this and it comes around the same time.
I just don't like the all-encompassing statements. "only time I lose and when people know it's coming before the game starts" is a bullshit statement sorry.
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On December 09 2011 07:51 KingDime wrote:
I don't get the point of telling how many times you won with a strat. It's about how effective it is in the end. I like having extra one base plays but I've strayed away from this one because much like a 1/1/1 I feel it's too easy to scout, 1/1/1 atleast is a lot more flexible and keeps me guessing where as you can't exactly do that with this and it comes around the same time.
I just don't like the all-encompassing statements. "only time I lose and when people know it's coming before the game starts" is a bullshit statement sorry.
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
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I like the sound of this build. What's the incentive to drop an Immortal and two Stalkers instead of 3-4 Zealots, which can start earlier?
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This bo is amazing!! thx for say it to all!
What is his counter?
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On December 09 2011 10:05 Severedevil wrote:
I like the sound of this build. What's the incentive to drop an Immortal and two Stalkers instead of 3-4 Zealots, which can start earlier?
4 Zealots can be easily stopped by any player that goes for early roaches, although he would lose to the immortals later on. Immortals and Stalkers also don't need to walk to an enemy unit before they can start shooting, and Immortals in general do so much damage that it can take out morphing spine crawlers and harass queens easily.
http://drop.sc/70799 Here's a replay of me holding it with a macro hatchery. As long as you don't take a third too fast ( which any sane person wouldn't because you are on one base ) and scout when he is moving out and where he is you can easily overwhelm him with Zerglings. Once you get +1 going it's really hard for them to put a dent in me and the extra macro hatchery allows me to build more than enough queens to seriously hamper warp prism movement.
Second time I face this style, and I have to say, with my regular build I fare against it pretty well if I may say so myself. But I can definitely see the strength in going for this against anything but this style though .
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So its your fault this build keeps happening to me all week. Thanks a lot. Jerk. :p
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On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote:
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder.
I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
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Tried this on cross position on shattered. Worked amazingly well and I even botched the BO. The prism harass can really mess with your zerg enemy they don't know what to think. The guy I faced dropped a roach warren AND a spire on two base but continued making mass lings when he realized I was 1 base all-in.
Didn't matter he couldn't even get up more than 3 roaches to save his life. This BO is very fun and works very well. Flaws yes, but very powerful. This was mid diamond on NA server.
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On December 09 2011 23:13 Rinny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote:
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder. I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
what omg you mean you actually saw him lose a game now this strategy is getting common. oh my word, maybe we should all go back on whatever we post 7 days to update and say yes I have lost a lot more games since!!!!!
yeh he posted that comment on today but do you watch his stram 24/7? are u sure this isnt some guy who may of...... seen this post and KNOWS what he is going to do, or as he posted someone who he has played many times over the last few days and did he do the strategy perfectly?
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When does this hit? I was watching Lobber's stream the otherday and it hit around 9 minutes, seems like it's like a 2 base timing but weaker. I think 3 hatch roach ling without lair would easily overrun this build. Around 9 minutes I usually have my 3rd saturated 16 drones as well as 2 gasses with saturation and both my main and my natural with around 16-18 drones with a good amount of roaches and lings with +1.
Edit:
I believe the only reason why this build is so strong is because 90% of zergs open 2 base lair so they have significantly less units because they are teching so hard.
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On December 10 2011 00:02 DemoraliZ wrote:
When does this hit? I was watching Lobber's stream the otherday and it hit around 9 minutes, seems like it's like a 2 base timing but weaker. I think 3 hatch roach ling without lair would easily overrun this build. Around 9 minutes I usually have my 3rd saturated 16 drones as well as 2 gasses with saturation and both my main and my natural with around 16-18 drones with a good amount of roaches and lings with +1.
Edit:
I believe the only reason why this build is so strong is because 90% of zergs open 2 base lair so they have significantly less units because they are teching so hard.
Yea that's exactly what happens most of the time. 2 base lair. Also it hits about 9 -11 mins. 9 if your're really good and about 11 if you butcher the build a bit. Me being in plat, Main army hits around 10 ish
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On December 09 2011 23:39 Tommylew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 09 2011 23:13 Rinny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote:
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder. I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful. what omg you mean you actually saw him lose a game now this strategy is getting common. oh my word, maybe we should all go back on whatever we post 7 days to update and say yes I have lost a lot more games since!!!!! yeh he posted that comment on today but do you watch his stram 24/7? are u sure this isnt some guy who may of...... seen this post and KNOWS what he is going to do, or as he posted someone who he has played many times over the last few days and did he do the strategy perfectly?
Well it was on Korea so I dont think so.
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This build has been working quite well (high masters). I've won far more than I've lost and those games were just due to some mistakes. I think zergs will get better at countering it the more they see it though, and I feel slightly dirty using it lol.
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On December 09 2011 23:13 Rinny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 09:12 Lobber wrote:
Well I haven't, I've never lost on ladder or in a tournament with this build unless I was facing someone multiple times in a row, and I didn't make a major game altering blunder. I saw you lose to a player on your stream who went queens and spines. I don't think your statement is entirely truthful.
I fucked that game up pretty bad assuming it was vs Lalush or Destiny the other day, other than that I can't think of any recent losses with it that I've streamed.
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You were playing on the korean server.It was a random korean master. I'm not sure what map. the z got about 5 spines, lings, and queens. After you lost the game you said "I guess mass queens and spines beats it but if i had waped in on the main I would have won". I think it was a little while back , and i linked to your stream from a reddit post, so it probably coincided with one of your posts getting to the front page. Hope that helps ^_^
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EPT
