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On December 29 2011 07:20 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 07:07 Xenomorph wrote:On December 24 2011 22:55 Erasme wrote:I faced this build in eu. The kid was pretty arrogant. Upgraded lings shred this :p I got destroyed by the build, but i had time to think about it, so when you scout the 1gate robo, you pump 2more queens while staying on one gas, quickly search +1melee, if you don't see any expo by 6:30, it's obvious it will be an one base play, so you pump mass lings and try to catch it in the open field. With only 4sentry, you can't destroy unending waves of speedlings if they micro their lings correctly  The issue with mass lings versus this is that immortals can shred mass lings if protected. If you can turtle with enough spines/queens it can be broken as the OP spoke of, but "mass lings" in preparation of a 1 base play won't cut it. Unless the protoss doesn't micro the army, there is no way he is going to be surrounded and picked apart by an "endless wave" of zerglings, especially if you FF the ramp for reinforcements. It's also very very easy to spot mass ling, see no roach warren with your harass? Mass lings, warp in a couple zealots and sentries instead of stalkers and ff well... Still harder than vs roach ling, but still not too bad.
What I love about this timing is that you cannot get up enough roaches in time, especially with harassing the expo. The initial reaction is even more lings and occasionally spines when they see the push coming. However unless you are on a huge map like Taldarim there will be little to no time to prepare.
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I like this build, it seems very nice. I didn't read anything but the first page and a bit of the last, but I've gone 4-1 with this build and as for the loss, what do you do if zerg skips roaches and just goes for hydra?
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I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke.
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On December 29 2011 08:48 MutaKingPrime wrote:
I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke.
Just check out some of the replays, I do the timing differently in a lot of them, but you can see how each style works...
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Sheth just held this off on his stream on shattered. Didn't catch his exact nat timing, but he got a very quick macro hatch (5min or so?) at his nat, only mined off of one gas, had an extra queen and took minimal damage from the initial harass. He made mass lings with roach support and pulled drones at his nat when the push occurred. Managed to run the P out of forcefields and his drones/few remaining lings eventually got a surround on the immortals, and when the FF on the main ramp wore off the roaches cleaned up whatever was left.
It was really really close though. He'd have been absolutely dead without the drone pull.
He also didn't overproduce drones-- so he had that much more lings.
Protoss didn't really make any obvious mistakes from Sheth's perspective, if he would have had more sentries he would've had less zealots, which he needed in the engagement.
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Lobber this build is awesome, and I've gotten quite a few easy wins on ladder with it. However I feel like as it gets more popular, showing up to zergs base with a warp prism with 1 immortal and 2 stalkers is pretty much a dead giveaway of what's to come. Do you think we'll have to start using other types of harassment; maybe a couple sentries and zealots? If I was a zerg player and knew about this build, I would see a immo+stalker drop as a pretty obvious sign that a 10 min immortal push was on its way.
Anyways, thanks for your efforts
Also your stream is quite entertaining.
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It looks okey but once people catch on to it then it will lose a lot of its power. Vs 1 base play I like to rely on lings mostly so I guess I would do okay vs this. Then again, I haven't encountered it so can't comment too much. But I like warp prism play overall so this build gets the JoeAWESOME seal of approval!
( ^_^ )
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On December 30 2011 03:18 Revelatus wrote:Lobber this build is awesome, and I've gotten quite a few easy wins on ladder with it. However I feel like as it gets more popular, showing up to zergs base with a warp prism with 1 immortal and 2 stalkers is pretty much a dead giveaway of what's to come. Do you think we'll have to start using other types of harassment; maybe a couple sentries and zealots? If I was a zerg player and knew about this build, I would see a immo+stalker drop as a pretty obvious sign that a 10 min immortal push was on its way. Anyways, thanks for your efforts Also your stream is quite entertaining.
You can always go 1 base colossus with the same drop.
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On December 29 2011 13:25 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 08:48 MutaKingPrime wrote:
I have a question about the gates. should I get 3gates after your immortals start producing or more than that? Appreciate any help I'm like 5-0 with it against Mid-Masters on the NA server right now :D. I've also found that dropping with the intial Sentry/Stalker/Immortal works better as I can ff mineral lines or ff lings so that they can't attack when i get into a choke. Just check out some of the replays, I do the timing differently in a lot of them, but you can see how each style works...
Thanks man that helped a lot! Cheers.
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Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass.
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So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die.
2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
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On December 30 2011 18:35 Hetz wrote:
So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die.
2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
this isnt gonna be some revolutionary build that changes the mu lol. ive done it quite a few times and a huge amount of ling/queen is really strong against it. kinda like the 1-1-1 in tvp, except theres really no variations yet, so zerg will know exactly when its coming. give it another few weeks and i assure you, the more P that do it, the more Z players will figure out how to beat it. why dont you try new counters instead of coming to this thread just to cry about a build you just lost to on the ladder..
anyways, thanks for the write up, a fun build to execute once in awhile when im ripping my hair out losing macro pvz to mutas ^^;
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I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess.
Lol are you serious ;
yeah, sure, zergs dont ever all in , roflmao.
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i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
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On December 30 2011 18:35 Hetz wrote:
So I read most of this thread, few things I noticed:
1. Great build. Very effective, easy to perform, 95% of zergs die.
2. No effective way to stop it for zerg, even if scouted.
I wonder why its always zerg on the receiving end (protoss and terrans all ins alike), but thats how Blizzard intended sc2 to be I guess. Even though I would not classify this as imbalance, it takes so much more effort on the zerg side compared to what protoss needs to put in. The absurd win rates for protoss corroborates this.
The protoss knows exactly what his game plan is from 1st sec on. No need to scout, this build counters all that CAN be made by zerg before 9:30 min. Thus, sole concentration on the build for the protoss player. Zerg has no idea, needs to drone to stay alive, has to scout it in time only to find out its too late to counter. Notice the difference in effort here??
'Nice TT bro', I know its coming, I don't care. This might change the metagame for good. If things stabilize again, protoss players will al be up 1 or 2 leagues. Lower leagues getting even more crowded with zergs.
Overdramatic much? Read the posts before yours, and you'll find that correctly played mass ling should be able to wear this down. When I use this build, the way I lose is by zerg making an extra queen for the drop, and just pumping mass ling, then meeting me in the middle which forces me to use forcefields - which means I have less for the actual timing.
Zerg's are not the only ones in this game who are the victim of ridiculous allin's...or maybe you didn't hear of the 1/1/1 era? Y'know...that really neat allin that is still a bitch to hold, and used to completely decimate protosses no matter what they did as long as the terran played properly?
Your post just seems like an excuse to whine instead of looking for answers..
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On December 30 2011 17:44 CecilSunkure wrote:
Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass.
Keep in mind a lot of the games from the replay pack are vs low master KR or mid-high master NA, since then with my MMR being proper I've only been playing top masters or GMs, and still have beaten TSL Revival and another TSL zerg in playhems with the build... If they don't go fast hydra, or like 8 minute muta, I don't think anything can hold unless I mess up.
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On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote:
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling.
Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
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looks interesting will try! il give feedback when i played a few times with this
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Is there any particular reason this doesn't work in pvp/t? I've been playing around with it, and it seems pretty strong regardless lol
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On December 30 2011 21:49 SetStndbySmn wrote:
Is there any particular reason this doesn't work in pvp/t? I've been playing around with it, and it seems pretty strong regardless lol
The opening would just die to a 4 gate pvp, so you'd either have to change your build, or pray they aren't aggressive, as for vs terran, they can just build marin
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EPT
