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On December 30 2011 20:39 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 17:44 CecilSunkure wrote:
Disappointed after watching replays. Only good players I saw were the two guys from TSL and iS, that actually spent all their resources. The TSL dude gave you a run for your money even though he way over-droned and only had like 8 Mutalisks. As far as I can tell you win because of the odd time you hit where many a player's macro will crumble.
The harass with the prism also isn't really doing anything except get the Z to make some units, which better prepares them for your push that comes immediately after. You'd be better off just hiding the Immortal + Robo tech and trying to fake an expansion, which you never once did from what I saw -unless you can come up with some more effective harass. Keep in mind a lot of the games from the replay pack are vs low master KR or mid-high master NA, since then with my MMR being proper I've only been playing top masters or GMs, and still have beaten TSL Revival and another TSL zerg in playhems with the build... If they don't go fast hydra, or like 8 minute muta, I don't think anything can hold unless I mess up.
Actually queens/lings and 4/5 spines at the front hold this pretty easily. And not 4 queens but 8/9.
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Macro hatch mass +1 ling will handle this easily with 4-6 queens and a slightly fast lair to end the game.
Macro hatcch allows a ton of lings and as soon as its stomped or you expand hard drone a third base and there isnt a way a toss can come back.
Hard build to beat if not scouted but, if it is there isnt much of a chance for victory if the zerg responds with this.
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Thanks for this idea/build! Just tried it and was strong, just rolled the zerg. I was way late and it still worked very well. Actually is improving my game by just focusing on FF (still platinum).
I could see mass ling possibly being a problem, but will have to check your replays, I'm sure you have been there, done that.
Cheers!
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Actually, one question if you don't mind - do you ever make an observer? I'm guessing not since you never mentioned it - not worth the gas?
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Hey, thanks for the nice build and the nice guide.
Have tried this a few times and although I cannot verify how viable some beforementioned counters are, I think it really adds up nicely in terms of mechanics and using CB/res efficiently.
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On December 31 2011 02:05 matrius wrote:
Actually, one question if you don't mind - do you ever make an observer? I'm guessing not since you never mentioned it - not worth the gas?
What is there to observe? In 1v1 maps he doesn't even send a scouting probe.
btw I had tons of fun and success last night trying this build. Thank you very much, Lobber, for your work on it and this thread.
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On December 31 2011 02:17 Back wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:05 matrius wrote:
Actually, one question if you don't mind - do you ever make an observer? I'm guessing not since you never mentioned it - not worth the gas? What is there to observe? In 1v1 maps he doesn't even send a scouting probe. btw I had tons of fun and success last night trying this build. Thank you very much, Lobber for your work on it and this thread.
he's not the scout and react kind of player that's for sure >.<
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On December 30 2011 20:40 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote:
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling. Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area.
I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs.
Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push.
I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
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On December 31 2011 02:24 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 20:40 Lobber wrote:On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote:
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling. Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area. I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs. Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push. I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something.
Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly...
As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
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Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd.
Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help.
Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries.
As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution.
The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective.
9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used.
Edit:
On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote:
and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army.
3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
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On December 31 2011 09:14 Kajarn wrote:Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd. Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help. Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries. As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution. The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective. 9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used. Edit: Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote:
and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army... Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army. 3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
There's no way you play the same way vs ffe as you do vs gateway openers, especially 1 base protoss. How can you possibly compare preparing for gateway allins off 2 base with 3base roachling vs this 1 base robo allin? You're not going to be able to drone the whole time after you scout no expo at the right time and will have to sac ovie/prepare asap for multiple kinds of allins. May I ask which league you are in?
This is pretty strong even if you see it coming, I'd imagine some losses are to underestimating the power of it since it's not very common.
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On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:24 caradoc wrote:On December 30 2011 20:40 Lobber wrote:On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote:
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling. Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area. I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs. Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push. I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something. Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly... As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
fair enough! I wish I could watch twitch VODs right now so I could reference the exact VOD/time of the game I was talking about-- would help discussion/refinement of this build, and I also kind of want to review it a bit too. Unfortunately twitch thinks I haven't installed shockwave and I can't watch anything. (live streams are fine tho? o_O )
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On December 31 2011 09:14 Kajarn wrote:Honestly sounds like you just catch the Zerg off gaurd. Anyone who opens with quick enough ling speed will shut down the warp prism. 3 Queens also help. Then all it takes is sufficient scouting by the Zerg to get a sufficient sized army. Next, a flanking with lings will crush your smaller # of sentries. As with any 1 base all-in, it all comes down to scouting and execution. The all-in hits too late and warp prism harass is ineffective. 9min out of base is 10 min at base... Thats enough time to do a FFE into 7 gate +1 timing, or almost enough time for the FFE +1 zealot Stargate harass into 2 Immo 5/6gate push Artosis has used. Edit: Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote:
and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army... Oh god at that comment. Correct comment: you can elevator in to an out of position queen based army. 3 Queens at the top of the ramp will stop any sort of elevator attempts what so ever.
3 queens at the top of the ramp can't transfuse anything, and if I just engage normally and ff them into the main zerg loses all the same, what's the point of mass queen if half of them aren't useful.
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I noticed that you can get close to the same army with only 3 gates. Lobber, have you ever tried expanding off it? I'm guessing you are going to say "with such a high success rate, why fix whats not broke?" but just wondering what you've found out, as I'm guessing you've tested that scenario as well?
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On December 31 2011 21:43 matrius wrote:
I noticed that you can get close to the same army with only 3 gates. Lobber, have you ever tried expanding off it? I'm guessing you are going to say "with such a high success rate, why fix whats not broke?" but just wondering what you've found out, as I'm guessing you've tested that scenario as well?
There's no good way to expand with this tbh, maybe expo off the warpprism harass and do a different tech path, but that's about it.
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I tried it out... I screwed up a lot, but it still steamrolled my opponent. TBH The only thing I can see breaking this is some kind of roach timing that hits before your immortal is out. Even then, it won't do enough damage. I feel I float a lot of minerals though, so would it just be best to build gateways earlier?
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On December 31 2011 08:47 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:24 caradoc wrote:On December 30 2011 20:40 Lobber wrote:On December 30 2011 19:33 Malstriks wrote:
i've never lost to this build after facing it 3-4 times on ladder. once you see the protoss hasn't expanded by 6-6:30 you should be throwing down your evo chamber, and then you should sac 1-2 overlords to see what the protoss is up to. once you scout immortals you should start +1, throw down a macro hatch, and go mass ling with some spines. pretty easy to defend with +1 mass ling. Lings die doing no damage, 2-3 ffs to protect sentries and the ling dps is nothing, can't get good surface area. I dunno, after watching sheth hold it off with mass lings I'm not sure. Granted he's sheth, but if you're FFing the ramp and trying to FF off lings you either have very limited FFs and the zerg can bait them and wait, or you have to warp in less zealots for more FFs. Just saying, I realize you like this build, and realize more than most how strong it is, but after seeing it being held off with mass lings, and hearing several reports of zerg in this thread holding it off with mass lings, I don't think hydras is the only way to hold off a well executed version of this push. I'm sure sheth had encountered the build before and tested out responses to it. The fact his response of choice was to go mass lings, and the fact that he was successful, should say something. Like I've said, I've never lost to pure ling without having messed up the build or my ffs quite badly... As to the person who said a few spines mass queen and lings, my army can 1 hit a spine so it's very hard to transfuse properly, and I can very easily ff the ramp and elevator into the main vs a queen based army...
Wrong ... Queens will kill your warp prism ... This is exactly what my opponent tried.
Also i wasn't completly blind and reacted to my opponent's move.
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Just wanted to say thanks to the author of the OP. Well-written, easy-to-follow guide.
And a fun build to execute! I've racked up a good number of wins with it.
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really strong strategy. As Zerg I've played against this a few times before seeing this thread and assumed there had to be a thread somewhere lol.
With perfect elevatoring you can take on pretty much anything.
Mass ling is not an answer. The best way ive found is at least 5 queens, some spines (at least 3) and roaches anyways. Lings wont really do anything while there are FFs, youre better off to reionforce with ling after the all FFs are used up though.
Even so I only hold it half the time, so there might be a better way.
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I still think that as long as you scout it, mass ling with a few roaches holds this just fine off of 2 bases and a macro hatch. You can even rush Lair and go Ling/Hydra which I used to tear this apart. You get amazing creep spread due to the lack of an obs so your Hydras are much more effective.
Very powerful all in if unscouted, but the WP-Immortal gives it away anyway.
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EPT
