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On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
It depends on chronos. I believe it's around the 9-10 min range where you will be b/w 40-50 probes if you aren't chrono'ing probes. So yes from you would need to throw down a nexus around 8 mins to have it up in time to maynard over your workers to maintain maximum mining efficiency, but the mining efficiency of workers does not drop off that sharply until >20 workers on minerals. So while you are correct my point was that such an early 3rd base from zerg does not actually equate to a very tangible economic advantage until mineral saturation which is quite a bit later. Trying to match zerg expansions as protoss is too simplistic a comparison and does not line up with the reality of the game.
And it's not that protoss players feel fine taking "late" expos. Protoss has the hardest time to expand out of the 3 races. That's just a fact. There is no "standard" timing for a protoss 3rd because of this, and it is much more reaction-based than any other race by far.
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On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
I don't know how your ZvPs go, but if I'm going roaches, I have a harder time stopping a later 3rd base from Protoss than I do with an earlier 3rd. The Protoss waiting til they have a slightly larger army (and more Forcefields) to defend the 3rd makes it very hard on me to punish. When they plant an earlier 3rd, and have a smaller army (and less FFs) to defend, I find it much easier to snipe their 3rd.
Conversly, when I go mutalisks I find it easier to stop later 3rds, because if they plant an early 3rd, my 6 mutas can't kill the Nexus before stalkers show up to force a retreat.
I'm only in high Diamond though, so it's very possible that my opponents just aren't responding correctly to what I do in response to seeing their 3rd base.
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As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg.
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DNO who did this first, but MorroW has been doing this a lot, for a very long time.
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On November 22 2011 05:01 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player. I don't know how your ZvPs go, but if I'm going roaches, I have a harder time stopping a later 3rd base from Protoss than I do with an earlier 3rd. The Protoss waiting til they have a slightly larger army (and more Forcefields) to defend the 3rd makes it very hard on me to punish. When they plant an earlier 3rd, and have a smaller army (and less FFs) to defend, I find it much easier to snipe their 3rd. Conversly, when I go mutalisks I find it easier to stop later 3rds, because if they plant an early 3rd, my 6 mutas can't kill the Nexus before stalkers show up to force a retreat. I'm only in high Diamond though, so it's very possible that my opponents just aren't responding correctly to what I do in response to seeing their 3rd base.
well, that's exactly the reason WHY you go mutalisks. You don't go mutalisks because they are so good generally, you go mutalisks because later Protoss expansion timings rely on Forcefields and Colossi, which are both countered by mutalisks.
And from my experience, any aggression against early Protoss thirds is an allin. If I overdo units and he sacrifices/cancels the nexus I usually lose. If I don't overdo units, it is nearly impossible to fight a Protoss with a decent amount of gateways.
Masters Zerg for the record, but tbh I don't see a lot of fast third tries in the first place but I also feel like I never lose a ZvP in which P didn't expand early and I didn't make a huge, huge mistake.
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... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2
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On November 22 2011 07:35 Glon wrote:
... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2
Yeah didn't Moon and IdrA do this back to back against MC one MLG? And everyone was questioning IdrA's decision to use it after he held off Moon doing it on the same map just fine. Same build...hatch cancel included. Loses to any Stargate expand like MC was doing at the time.
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On November 22 2011 08:17 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 07:35 Glon wrote:
... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2 Yeah didn't Moon and IdrA do this back to back against MC one MLG? And everyone was questioning IdrA's decision to use it after he held off Moon doing it on the same map just fine. Same build...hatch cancel included. Loses to any Stargate expand like MC was doing at the time.
Stargate expand or FFE into Stargate?
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thanks for the trashy build trash.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 22 2011 05:14 ThomasHobbes wrote:
As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg.
No scout is 100% reliable. But zealot/probe scouting is the best we have and it works pretty darn well. I've argued this with you before, and to deny multiple probe/zealot scouts requires more than 4 lings and then that justifies the protoss making more cannons without falling relatively economically behind. If you're constantly denying all protoss scouting with just 4 lings then you're the one who's playing incompetent protosses.
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On November 22 2011 08:57 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:14 ThomasHobbes wrote:
As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg. No scout is 100% reliable. But zealot/probe scouting is the best we have and it works pretty darn well. I've argued this with you before, and to deny multiple probe/zealot scouts requires more than 4 lings and then that justifies the protoss making more cannons without falling relatively economically behind. If you're constantly denying all protoss scouting with just 4 lings then you're the one who's playing incompetent protosses.
No, I agree that more than 4 lings are necessary to deny anything more than a zealot scout, but I'd like to know when you make the judgement call, as a Protoss, to make more than a single extra cannon (upon having your scouts denied).
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On November 22 2011 05:15 ejozl wrote:
DNO who did this first, but MorroW has been doing this a lot, for a very long time.
Idra and Moon has done this at past MLGs as well vs MC
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Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
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On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd
But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo.
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On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo.
I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14.
Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in?
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On November 21 2011 21:30 StrinterN wrote:
I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p
Why do people keep claiming this?
FFE is not a greedy build at all. It is THE standard opening in 80-90% of all PvZs. What the build punishes is a Protoss who doesn't scout effectively - like pretty much every other form of cheese in the game.
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On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in?
its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
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On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
If you want quick Metabolic Boost, 15p15g is infinitely more economical.
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On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
You need to add the cost of the upgrade itself, which is 100/100.
Then, lost mining time is not insignificant. In the time it takes to harvest 100 gas, those drones could have mined at least 100 minerals.
Then the drone you used to build the extractor is not mining either. But lets ignore this to make it simple.
So, you are spending 100 on the upgrade, 75 on the extractor, and losing 100+ on the lost mining time.
This means that you will be starting your expansion hatch almost as late as you would be staring your THIRD hatch, had you not gone for gas+speed.
Of course, you will need to get gas and speed anyway but your expansion is delayed which means you cannot mine from it until its up, nor do you have the larva to make drones.
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I think Leenock's mistake on Shakuras Plateau was allowing Naniwa to see his roaches approaching. If he had held the roaches back a few seconds longer out of vision and killed the zealots with his lings, Naniwa (might) have put down one extra cannon expecting ling pressure, but the fact he saw the roaches allowed him to put down several more cannons before they got there, which helped him hold it off until he got his void rays out.
Slightly off topic, but with that series Naniwa consistently got an early nexus and Leenock consistently got early roaches. Why would Naniwa not play safely and expand behind a few gateways? To keep doing the same thing every game and losing to the same didn't really make sense to me. Regardless, it was an interesting build by Leenock and I will more than likely be trying it out at some point. I'm in need of some *real* build orders, I usually wing it after I get ling speed and an expansion.
EDIT: thanks to the OP for writing it out, it was very helpful.
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EPT
