EPT[D]Leenock's Hatch-cancel Roach Rush (ZvP) - Page 2
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tooDARKpark
United States149 Posts
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StrinterN
Denmark531 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 21 2011 21:30 StrinterN wrote: I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p I think that there is again no one to take credit since it's been done so many times before ^^ | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
(Which is a roach/ling allin targeting FFW as well, but with a more traditional initial build order and no hatch cancel. The thread contains some reasoingn behind the steps taken that will illuminate things slightly more than in the original post in this thread (no flame to the OP tho, thx a bunch for posting!))) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2011 21:34 KeksX wrote: I think that there is again no one to take credit since it's been done so many times before ^^ yeah... there were already various guides on this opening (I did one myself) and guides on how to open FFE and always beat this kind of allin without relying on scouting ("MC's FFE-->Stargate") I guess one of the first to perform this build in a major tournament was JulyZerg, but that once again doesn't mean that he invented it and it hasn't seen use before. Not sure why Leenock did this rather risky strategy instead of a solid 3base opening, but I guess his decision was the right one. | ||
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Xenorawks
158 Posts
Not sure why Leenock did this rather risky strategy instead of a solid 3base opening, but I guess his decision was the right one. I think he noticed Naniwa not only FFE every single game, but also doesn't change his scouting style(only 1 probe, then zealots). Naniwa was also trying to get ahead economically as much as humanly possible in every game by trying to Nexus first, throwing down gateway after forge and squeezing out a cannon at the last possible second. Of course there's nothing wrong with him being so perfect with his cannon timings and all, but Leenock can clearly see what mindset Naniwa has(a little greedy) and tries to take advantage of it. By doing Nexus first and never trying to be sneaky with his scouting probe (doesn't really try to hide it for proxy pylons or send out a second one), I guess Leenock could totally map out Naniwa's scouting timings to be able to execute this so perfectly. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 21 2011 19:05 KeksX wrote: There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof. You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though. In game 5 Naniwa's probe was killed before the normal expansion timing. In that game, Leenock didn't even bother to plant his second hatchery. In all cases, you want to deny secondary scouting. Nani's FFE often includes 1-2 early zealots sent towards his opponents base. Not only do they do potential damage, but they make great scouts. If he had hidden a second probe, or kept his first one alive and not attempted to delay the early expansion timing, he also could have scouted what was happening with plenty of time to prepare. Like any cheese, the attack Leenock used relies on his Protoss opponent not preparing for the build, and Nani dropped the ball in his scouting. | ||
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sanctuz
Norway184 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote: I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. | ||
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Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote: I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On November 21 2011 21:12 FortuneSyn wrote: Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush. Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches. It doesn't actually matter if he sends them together. All he achieves by that is delaying the rush by maybe 5 seconds. He will still die too it if he doesnt respond properly. The whole point of the build is that while the roaches are running to the protoss base the lings will catch up and come to protoss before the roaches. So if you see zealots with the lings you simply kill them with you 12+ lings while keeping the roaches out of vision. Then you hit with the roaches. The lings could be an indicator that the all in is coming or they could just mean that the zerg is responding to your 2 zealots moving out by having the correct amount of lings on the map. You can't really start spamming cannon based on just seeing 10ish lings early game. What you can do is add a third cannon and start chrono boosting the gateway and that will help of course. But it wont guarrantee you a win. This build is clearly made for maps with open naturals such as xelnaga. It's very bad to use on shakuras obviously. | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
Tl;dr: What is the point of the hatch cancel? | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:24 TheEconomist wrote: What irked me the most was that regardless of whether or not he hatch cancelled or not, he STILL built 8 roaches. Surely he'll have the resources for the follow up lings with/without a hatch if he can build 8 roaches anyways? Tl;dr: What is the point of the hatch cancel? They are two different builds. The hatch cancel one is an all in with lings that aims to kill the protoss expansion. The non hatch cancel gets slower roaches and no or few lings with dronies behind it. It's made to kill off forge or gate or core so that the protoss tech is delayed and he is forced into making cannons and chrono boost units. The hatch cancel could theoretically work on almost any map. The non hatch cancel only works on maps where the cannons doesn't cover all your buildings or your nexus. | ||
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voy
Poland348 Posts
On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote: Zealot scouting Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons. yeah thats true, You can kill 4 slow lings just kiting and dealing just one (from 2 attacks) attack and kiting. Anyways, regarding to the OP, MorroW was playing this fake expand a lot on ladder and some online tournaments as well, I belive reaplays can be found easly. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote: Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Zealot scouting Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.  | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote: Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote: Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE... | ||
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