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Maybe spoilers for MLG Providence
The most memorable part of MLG this weekend for me as a Zerg was Leenock's ZvP build where he would fake an expo to roach rush an FFE, against Naniwa he used it a couple times, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
I don't think this is going to be a standard build, but it'll be a nice BO to keep in the pocket, similarly to a Fake-expo 4gate, just to bust out in a BoX competition.
From what I could see in the VODs, the build order looks like this:
10 Overlord
14 Extractor
14 Pool
15 Overlord
@100% Pool - 2 sets of Zerglings, Queen, Metabolic Boost
Remove 2 drones from gas
20 Hatchery
Put 2 drones back on gas
19 2 Overlords
19 Roach Warren
Cancel hatchery when near completion
@ 200 gas - pull 2 drones from gas
@ 100% Roach Warren - 8 Roaches
As larva allows:
6 Zerglings
1 Overlord
Reinforce with pure zerglings
Leenock does not seem to remove the drone from gas after making the roaches
Also, after making ~12 Zerglings as the third wave of lings (4, 6, then 12), he goes into droning, not sure if this is part of the build or a response to what happens in both games
Game 1 - Shakuras Plateau
+ Show Spoiler +Leenock spawning at 7, Naniwa spawning at 2
Naniwa goes Nexus first
Naniwa scouts the lings and roaches with 2 zealots in the middle of the map, allowing him time to put up three cannons, further away from his wall
-I'm pretty sure the Zealots would have just seen the roaches within their vision
Push hits at 6:50
Naniwa has two sentries with what seems like one forcefield each
Leenock kills the cannon and the gateway, but the cannons prevent him from moving forward so he has to retreat and try to macro up
At this point, I assume Leenock is dead so I don't analyze the rest of the game.
Game 3 - Tal'darim Altar
+ Show Spoiler +Spawning Leenock at 11, Naniwa at 7
Naniwa goes Nexus first
First zealot that is at the xel'naga tower is taken out by the initial 4 Zerglings
The second zealot comes out later and is killed by the 4 initial Zerglings + 6 additional Zerglings, so a 10 Zergling army, without seeing the roaches
After making ~12 reinforcing Zerglings during the attack, he goes into pure droning, I'm not sure if this is his normal follow up or a response to seeing Naniwa's front wall.
The push reaches the wall off at 6:50
He easily kills the cannon, the gateway and streams in and wins the game, while Naniwa has only that cannon and 2 sentries defending
Some points I noted about the games
-The key to this build is the first four lings preventing any scouting. You have to make sure the initial scouting probe is killed or scared off back to the base. Then you have to defend against any scouting Zealots or probes to make sure they don't see the Roach Warren, the Hatch cancel or the advancing Roaches. It is critical to control the scouting paths and the Towers, especially when you start moving out with the push
-Leenock goes straight 10 overlord. I assume this build works regardless of overlord timing, so this seems more like stylistic choice than anything. I'm not entirely sure what the rationale for this overlord time is though, so the build may not flow as smoothly if you do something else, though I haven't tested this.
-Leenock does not seem to scout with a drone. Even on a map like Dual Site, where you can't necessarily expect an FFE, he only uses an Overlord to scout. This may only because he knows Naniwa always FFE. I can't find the VODs of his games against Huk, I don't even know if that was streamed, so I can't compare his scout patterns against other Protoss. Also, on Shattered Temple, they spawned close air, so he might have had to use a drone to scout if they were cross positions.
-The engagement with the Roaches at the wall first targets the cannon, then the pylon, then the gateway. This is to prevent damage to Roaches, then the pylon unpowers the gateway and any emergency cannons so that Protoss cannot make anything to defend other than what units they managed to eek out before the attack
-Game 2 on Shattered Temple, he loses his first four lings without doing any damage, so he can't prevent scouting, which might be why he doesn't go for a full Hatch-cancel all-in. He also makes three drones before the 2 Overlords, presumably because he can since he lost the lings
-The hatch cancel just gives you money for the reinforcing lings. In game 2 against Naniwa, Leenock still makes the 8 roaches, just with no lings, otherwise it doesn't make the push any stronger or faster
-Probably my favorite part of the build is that if Protoss is one-basing, you still have a perfectly fine build against normal one base plays. I think this build would also be really strong against a 3gate expand or 4gate. Otherwise, you're just opening 14/14 which is completely normal for a ZvP build
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if the earliest 4 lings completely deny the P scouting, like in game 3 you described, then what is the advantage of faking the hatch and then cancel? the whole thing turned into a 6:50 timing push period.
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The first probe scout you can't stop with lings. You want that first probe scout to scout you putting down your hatchery. You have to use the 4 lings to stop the second probe scout or the first zealot scout; basically you need to stop the protoss from scouting that you cancelled your hatchery.
You also need to use these initial lings to make sure that there is nothing that is in the middle of the map that the protoss can use to see your roaches coming halfway. In the first game Naniwa scouting the roaches in the middle of the map and had plenty of time to throw down mass cannon and Leenock got destroyed. In the second game Leenock cleared out naniwa's zealots in the middle of the map with his zerglings and naniwa had no idea the roaches were coming, Leenock proceeded to destroy naniwa.
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If the protoss goes 15 or 16 nexus like nani did, then it can punish them very severely if no more than one or two cannons are made, it was a great BO choice, thanks for copying it down
I think that if protoss goes that greedy, they must be punished and this is a beautiful way to do so
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
In General vs FFE, zergs should not get zergling speed vs FFE. it serves no purpose other than to deny scout. It also costs a ton of money (1 drone + 200 minerals). If you're playing a macro game, you'll be much much better off just making queens and hatcheries.
The purpose of getting speedling is to threaten an all-in. Because of that Protoss should blindly add cannons vs a speedling opener because of the threat of all-in, as well as the fact that zerg's economy is heavily damaged by getting zergling speed early on.
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On November 21 2011 17:59 Que wrote:
if the earliest 4 lings completely deny the P scouting, like in game 3 you described, then what is the advantage of faking the hatch and then cancel? the whole thing turned into a 6:50 timing push period.
They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it.
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I still feel it's kind of risky, especially if you are up against a protoss who always does the 2 probe scout after FFE. It's not easy to hunt down 2 probes + zealots while preventing the protoss from seeing your roaches altogether with just a couple of lings. If the map is big like TDA it would be pretty hard to catch that 2nd sneaky probe that is usually used to check for quick thirds/hide pylons/try to sneak into the main or natural for extra info.
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Of course it's risky. It's high risk and high reward, but it's a good all-in that is effective against a common protoss opening. It's a good way of keeping them honest.
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There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof.
They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it.
You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though.
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On November 21 2011 18:14 T.O.P. wrote:
In General vs FFE, zergs should not get zergling speed vs FFE. it serves no purpose other than to deny scout. It also costs a ton of money (1 drone + 200 minerals). If you're playing a macro game, you'll be much much better off just making queens and hatcheries.
The purpose of getting speedling is to threaten an all-in. Because of that Protoss should blindly add cannons vs a speedling opener because of the threat of all-in, as well as the fact that zerg's economy is heavily damaged by getting zergling speed early on.
I totally agree
but say you expect your opponent to go gateway first on xel'naga so you get speed but you see him forge FEing
if you can all-in that definitely makes it hard for him to play against you
and if you get speed and get on three bases and he made extra cannons, you're back even because he made the extra cannon
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On November 21 2011 19:05 KeksX wrote:There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof. Show nested quote +They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it. You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though.
I disagree. Like I said, this is not a good standard build but something you use in the middle of a series as mindgames to keep your opponent guessing. But the build itself requires a very strict BO. I specifically studied this one because the timings and resources fit really, really well and tightly. Basically the entire build is really clean and efficient so you need to follow really a really tight build order to make it work.
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Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all.
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I don't see why Protosses wouldn't double probe scout and/or zealot scout if you're not going to add extra cannons. This is basically the exact same thing as nexus canceled 4/5 gate.
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I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
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definitly gonna try it up!
+ Show Spoiler +on game 3 i was like Omg he's doing it again, also good choice. because naniwa was opening ALL the matches against Z nexus first before the forge, naniwa mastered it to a level that can stop any 6, 9 or 10 pool withouth making a pylon at main nexus.
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On November 21 2011 20:10 Yokoblue wrote:
I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
What's special is that a Korean dude just used it twice in a tournament finals. This is more than enough to warrant discussion.
Discussing a build isn't just discussing the BO, it's discussing what to do with your units, what to target, when to commit, etc.
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I feel like this topic is discussed a lot but I guess I'll discuss it again.
Nexus first vs forge first
It's the same build. If you can scout the zerg first and confirm that he's not doing a fast pool (fast as in faster than 14 pool), you can safely nexus first. Otherwise you have to forge first. Either way, it doesn't affect defending roach rushes at all.
"Punishing" a FFE or "keeping the protoss honest"
Nope. It's a great all-in to use against FFE, that's for sure, but it just comes down to scouting denial for the zerg and scouting it for the protoss. If it's scouted, then the protoss can easily defend it. A protoss going FFE should never blindly make more than 1 or 2 cannons.
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
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On November 21 2011 20:10 Yokoblue wrote:
I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
7rr is much different. For one, it hits much earlier because you don't make anything except drones and roaches. In other words, it is scouted immediately because you make the Roach Warren at 19 while the probe is capable of scouting that you have no hatch and no lings, meaning that he can prepare adequate defenses.
Lennock's build is designed to prevent scouting with early lings and still look like a relatively normal build.
Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a gimmick build, but it's an interesting one.
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On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
I feel like this topic is discussed a lot but I guess I'll discuss it again.
Nexus first vs forge first
It's the same build. If you can scout the zerg first and confirm that he's not doing a fast pool (fast as in faster than 14 pool), you can safely nexus first. Otherwise you have to forge first. Either way, it doesn't affect defending roach rushes at all.
"Punishing" a FFE or "keeping the protoss honest"
Nope. It's a great all-in to use against FFE, that's for sure, but it just comes down to scouting denial for the zerg and scouting it for the protoss. If it's scouted, then the protoss can easily defend it. A protoss going FFE should never blindly make more than 1 or 2 cannons.
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Thank you. I was facepalming watching Naniwa not micro his zealot and letting it die to 4 speedlings. If you've going to always do the 6 zealot opening, why not send the first 2 to scout for the roach rush that has been killing you the past X games? Or just 1 zealot and a probe with micro.
I didn't really see any reason why Leenock would stop doing that build as long as Naniwa refused to respond to it.
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On November 21 2011 20:03 Sbrubbles wrote:
Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all.
Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush.
Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches.
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Critical point: Leenock micro'd his Zerglings PERFECTLY to not lose them to the Zealot scouts. It was insane, all slings had almost no HP after killing the Zealots, but they somehow survived.
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I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p
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On November 21 2011 21:30 StrinterN wrote:
I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p
I think that there is again no one to take credit since it's been done so many times before ^^
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Anyone interested in this strat might also find this one interesting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268413
(Which is a roach/ling allin targeting FFW as well, but with a more traditional initial build order and no hatch cancel. The thread contains some reasoingn behind the steps taken that will illuminate things slightly more than in the original post in this thread (no flame to the OP tho, thx a bunch for posting!)))
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On November 21 2011 21:34 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 21:30 StrinterN wrote:
I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p I think that there is again no one to take credit since it's been done so many times before ^^
yeah... there were already various guides on this opening (I did one myself) and guides on how to open FFE and always beat this kind of allin without relying on scouting ("MC's FFE-->Stargate")
I guess one of the first to perform this build in a major tournament was JulyZerg, but that once again doesn't mean that he invented it and it hasn't seen use before.
Not sure why Leenock did this rather risky strategy instead of a solid 3base opening, but I guess his decision was the right one.
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Not sure why Leenock did this rather risky strategy instead of a solid 3base opening, but I guess his decision was the right one.
I think he noticed Naniwa not only FFE every single game, but also doesn't change his scouting style(only 1 probe, then zealots). Naniwa was also trying to get ahead economically as much as humanly possible in every game by trying to Nexus first, throwing down gateway after forge and squeezing out a cannon at the last possible second. Of course there's nothing wrong with him being so perfect with his cannon timings and all, but Leenock can clearly see what mindset Naniwa has(a little greedy) and tries to take advantage of it.
By doing Nexus first and never trying to be sneaky with his scouting probe (doesn't really try to hide it for proxy pylons or send out a second one), I guess Leenock could totally map out Naniwa's scouting timings to be able to execute this so perfectly.
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On November 21 2011 19:05 KeksX wrote:There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof. Show nested quote +They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it. You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though.
In game 5 Naniwa's probe was killed before the normal expansion timing. In that game, Leenock didn't even bother to plant his second hatchery.
In all cases, you want to deny secondary scouting. Nani's FFE often includes 1-2 early zealots sent towards his opponents base. Not only do they do potential damage, but they make great scouts. If he had hidden a second probe, or kept his first one alive and not attempted to delay the early expansion timing, he also could have scouted what was happening with plenty of time to prepare.
Like any cheese, the attack Leenock used relies on his Protoss opponent not preparing for the build, and Nani dropped the ball in his scouting.
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I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg.
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On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg.
I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see.
What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise.
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This is a pretty old build that has been used a lot and it is like other people have said that scouting is the key to defending it. I don't really think it will shift anything in the match-up because as said, this build has been around for a while and it's just a cheese and not a sure way to punish a ffe/nexus first.
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I do this all the time against ffe. Biggest problem is not being able to deny scouting. If you get scouted, he puts up 2 more cannons and the game is pretty much over. It's risky to the point of being all-in.
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On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise.
Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings.
Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up.
I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg...
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On November 21 2011 21:12 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:03 Sbrubbles wrote:
Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all. Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush. Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches.
It doesn't actually matter if he sends them together. All he achieves by that is delaying the rush by maybe 5 seconds. He will still die too it if he doesnt respond properly. The whole point of the build is that while the roaches are running to the protoss base the lings will catch up and come to protoss before the roaches. So if you see zealots with the lings you simply kill them with you 12+ lings while keeping the roaches out of vision. Then you hit with the roaches.
The lings could be an indicator that the all in is coming or they could just mean that the zerg is responding to your 2 zealots moving out by having the correct amount of lings on the map. You can't really start spamming cannon based on just seeing 10ish lings early game. What you can do is add a third cannon and start chrono boosting the gateway and that will help of course. But it wont guarrantee you a win.
This build is clearly made for maps with open naturals such as xelnaga. It's very bad to use on shakuras obviously.
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What irked me the most was that regardless of whether or not he hatch cancelled or not, he STILL built 8 roaches. Surely he'll have the resources for the follow up lings with/without a hatch if he can build 8 roaches anyways?
Tl;dr: What is the point of the hatch cancel?
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On November 22 2011 00:24 TheEconomist wrote:
What irked me the most was that regardless of whether or not he hatch cancelled or not, he STILL built 8 roaches. Surely he'll have the resources for the follow up lings with/without a hatch if he can build 8 roaches anyways?
Tl;dr: What is the point of the hatch cancel?
They are two different builds. The hatch cancel one is an all in with lings that aims to kill the protoss expansion. The non hatch cancel gets slower roaches and no or few lings with dronies behind it. It's made to kill off forge or gate or core so that the protoss tech is delayed and he is forced into making cannons and chrono boost units. The hatch cancel could theoretically work on almost any map. The non hatch cancel only works on maps where the cannons doesn't cover all your buildings or your nexus.
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On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
yeah thats true, You can kill 4 slow lings just kiting and dealing just one (from 2 attacks) attack and kiting. Anyways, regarding to the OP, MorroW was playing this fake expand a lot on ladder and some online tournaments as well, I belive reaplays can be found easly.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway 
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Idra did this vs MC at an event like 6-8 months ago, and its pretty common @ masters PvZ as none knows how to handle FFE and a timing push and come out far ahead yet
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway
Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects
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On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects
A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE...
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On November 22 2011 01:10 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE...
Correct me if my observations are incorrect, but Stargate play followed up with a warp prism seems to be the current strongest follow up.
I see a lot of FFE - Gate - Stargate - Robo + 3 Gate while Vrays/Phoenix harrass and control the map. When the Warp Prism spawns, suddenly the Protoss ground army being made at home isn't being made at home, it's being made in the Zerg main, which is conveniently blocked by a Forcefield on the ramp.
While I think that particular tactic can be figured out, the theme of building that warp prism behind Stargate pressure to make the early Toss ground army more mobile seems to be really strong.
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On November 22 2011 01:10 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE...
psssst... don't tell them, I'm not ready to give up on blindcountering those builds yet 
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On November 21 2011 21:12 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:03 Sbrubbles wrote:
Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all. Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush. Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches.
Yep this was the crucial mistake. against this all in, scouting really is key for both sides
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Its better you guys see haypro's gameplay, was amazing, this allin is old as my granny...
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should be stoppable if u manage to scout and it dosent matter if u go nexus first or forge... all it matters is if u have defense ready by the time
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On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg...
You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos.
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On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed?
These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming (first zealot dies, second zealot sees roaches, shiiiiiit), it's too late to defend.
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This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
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On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend.
While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting.
As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons
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On November 22 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:
This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
There are a multitude of roach-ling attacks which fare perfectly well against 2 cannons and a sentry (and hit around a similar time), I don't think calling for that defense is advised.
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On November 22 2011 03:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings. It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons
True, but my scouting and reaction suggestions are not standard. Against other players making those extra lings might not cause a reaction from the protoss, and then it's a waste for the zerg.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:
This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
MC insta-gg'd idra with it on Shakuras, he got a super early void ray (part of his standard play) and it was out before roaches did any real damage, i think it was like 17gate, instant cyber when finished and then instant stargate when that was done, but still, he didnt scout shit and idra flat out lost the game, didnt even get past the wall i think
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On November 22 2011 03:49 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:27 marvellosity wrote:On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings. It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons True, but my scouting and reaction suggestions are not standard. Against other players making those extra lings might not cause a reaction from the protoss, and then it's a waste for the zerg.
In my experience you're correct, even when scouting speedlings the average protoss does not make more cannons. That being said, how many cannons do you add / determine you need? I generally find that I can break FFE's with up to 3-4 cannons.
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On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
Thanks. I definitely use those same techniques for probe scouting, and I'm better about confirming that the hatch wasn't canceled than, for example, Naniwa was in these games, but there's still a window after speed finishes where probes can't tell you whether Z droned or got roaches. I suppose I'll check the timing on the 2nd zealot and see if I can get it early enough to reactively cannon.
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Didnt read the whole thread, but SERIOUSLY ?! leenock played the most amazing tournament this weekend, absolutely dominating with solid play and the ONE thing u pick out to discuss, point out is an allin thats been there since release actually, NOTHING special AT ALL, morrow did this the whole time zvp on shakuras after he switched. how dumb is it to watch that amazing player at mlg and the one thing that impresses u is the one that any plat zerg could pull off. GOD, get some brain in here ....
User was warned for this post
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On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos.
with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins).
But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
Edit: Also I want to note, that I didn't even compare the expansions "just like that". I really didn't write that Protoss should throw down an expo at 5mins if zerg throws down one at 5mins (which is the standard 3rd timing in PvZ for 3hatch vs FFE openings)
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On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming (first zealot dies, second zealot sees roaches, shiiiiiit), it's too late to defend.
I actually think there might be a case for a blind second cannon against 14/14. The other possibility (which is a little more expensive) is to pylon the natural against 14/14 and then use that time to sneak a second probe and try to use that time to sneak in a second probe. I think going 2 gateways a-la kiwi after a 14/14 might be strong as well. Even fi the roaches kite the zealots (very hard to do off creep), it should buy enough time. Actually, this reminds me of the old fruit-dealer build from season 2 2010 with roaches vs hellions when hellions could kite them forever. It still bought enough time to get up a real defense.
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this build is only viable to face against a protoss who isn't scouting well doing a forge ffe. in my opinion if Naniwa was playing well he would have realized that a forge ffe wasn't in the cards, so i think this build is very situational and rarely viable
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Naniwa relied too much on zealot scouting. You need to zealot scout + probe scout, especially if zerg has gas taken. You need to micro your zealots too, something Naniwa consistenly failed to do.
Its "not a nice bo" invented by Leenock. Its just a cheesy build which can work, which ahs been used for a while. Starswar idra vs idk on taldarim e.g. More then 6 months old.
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On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
It depends on chronos. I believe it's around the 9-10 min range where you will be b/w 40-50 probes if you aren't chrono'ing probes. So yes from you would need to throw down a nexus around 8 mins to have it up in time to maynard over your workers to maintain maximum mining efficiency, but the mining efficiency of workers does not drop off that sharply until >20 workers on minerals. So while you are correct my point was that such an early 3rd base from zerg does not actually equate to a very tangible economic advantage until mineral saturation which is quite a bit later. Trying to match zerg expansions as protoss is too simplistic a comparison and does not line up with the reality of the game.
And it's not that protoss players feel fine taking "late" expos. Protoss has the hardest time to expand out of the 3 races. That's just a fact. There is no "standard" timing for a protoss 3rd because of this, and it is much more reaction-based than any other race by far.
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On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
I don't know how your ZvPs go, but if I'm going roaches, I have a harder time stopping a later 3rd base from Protoss than I do with an earlier 3rd. The Protoss waiting til they have a slightly larger army (and more Forcefields) to defend the 3rd makes it very hard on me to punish. When they plant an earlier 3rd, and have a smaller army (and less FFs) to defend, I find it much easier to snipe their 3rd.
Conversly, when I go mutalisks I find it easier to stop later 3rds, because if they plant an early 3rd, my 6 mutas can't kill the Nexus before stalkers show up to force a retreat.
I'm only in high Diamond though, so it's very possible that my opponents just aren't responding correctly to what I do in response to seeing their 3rd base.
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As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg.
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DNO who did this first, but MorroW has been doing this a lot, for a very long time.
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On November 22 2011 05:01 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:32 Big J wrote:On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos. with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins). But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player. I don't know how your ZvPs go, but if I'm going roaches, I have a harder time stopping a later 3rd base from Protoss than I do with an earlier 3rd. The Protoss waiting til they have a slightly larger army (and more Forcefields) to defend the 3rd makes it very hard on me to punish. When they plant an earlier 3rd, and have a smaller army (and less FFs) to defend, I find it much easier to snipe their 3rd. Conversly, when I go mutalisks I find it easier to stop later 3rds, because if they plant an early 3rd, my 6 mutas can't kill the Nexus before stalkers show up to force a retreat. I'm only in high Diamond though, so it's very possible that my opponents just aren't responding correctly to what I do in response to seeing their 3rd base.
well, that's exactly the reason WHY you go mutalisks. You don't go mutalisks because they are so good generally, you go mutalisks because later Protoss expansion timings rely on Forcefields and Colossi, which are both countered by mutalisks.
And from my experience, any aggression against early Protoss thirds is an allin. If I overdo units and he sacrifices/cancels the nexus I usually lose. If I don't overdo units, it is nearly impossible to fight a Protoss with a decent amount of gateways.
Masters Zerg for the record, but tbh I don't see a lot of fast third tries in the first place but I also feel like I never lose a ZvP in which P didn't expand early and I didn't make a huge, huge mistake.
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... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2
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On November 22 2011 07:35 Glon wrote:
... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2
Yeah didn't Moon and IdrA do this back to back against MC one MLG? And everyone was questioning IdrA's decision to use it after he held off Moon doing it on the same map just fine. Same build...hatch cancel included. Loses to any Stargate expand like MC was doing at the time.
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On November 22 2011 08:17 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 07:35 Glon wrote:
... guys why are you calling this "Leenocks" rush. It's been around since beta/beginning of SC2 Yeah didn't Moon and IdrA do this back to back against MC one MLG? And everyone was questioning IdrA's decision to use it after he held off Moon doing it on the same map just fine. Same build...hatch cancel included. Loses to any Stargate expand like MC was doing at the time.
Stargate expand or FFE into Stargate?
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thanks for the trashy build trash.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 22 2011 05:14 ThomasHobbes wrote:
As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg.
No scout is 100% reliable. But zealot/probe scouting is the best we have and it works pretty darn well. I've argued this with you before, and to deny multiple probe/zealot scouts requires more than 4 lings and then that justifies the protoss making more cannons without falling relatively economically behind. If you're constantly denying all protoss scouting with just 4 lings then you're the one who's playing incompetent protosses.
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On November 22 2011 08:57 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:14 ThomasHobbes wrote:
As a relevant aside, zealot scouts, zealot + probe scouts, and 2 zealot scouts can all be cleaned up by lings without bringing the roaches into play, you cannot rely on them for scouting info against a competent zerg. No scout is 100% reliable. But zealot/probe scouting is the best we have and it works pretty darn well. I've argued this with you before, and to deny multiple probe/zealot scouts requires more than 4 lings and then that justifies the protoss making more cannons without falling relatively economically behind. If you're constantly denying all protoss scouting with just 4 lings then you're the one who's playing incompetent protosses.
No, I agree that more than 4 lings are necessary to deny anything more than a zealot scout, but I'd like to know when you make the judgement call, as a Protoss, to make more than a single extra cannon (upon having your scouts denied).
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On November 22 2011 05:15 ejozl wrote:
DNO who did this first, but MorroW has been doing this a lot, for a very long time.
Idra and Moon has done this at past MLGs as well vs MC
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Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
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On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd
But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo.
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On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo.
I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14.
Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in?
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On November 21 2011 21:30 StrinterN wrote:
I know it isnt quite on the topic, but it would not call it Leenocks build since Morrow already used it back in April at Copenhagen games, just saying. but yeah it is a good build if Protoss is playing really greedy :p
Why do people keep claiming this?
FFE is not a greedy build at all. It is THE standard opening in 80-90% of all PvZs. What the build punishes is a Protoss who doesn't scout effectively - like pretty much every other form of cheese in the game.
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On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in?
its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
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On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
If you want quick Metabolic Boost, 15p15g is infinitely more economical.
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On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control
You need to add the cost of the upgrade itself, which is 100/100.
Then, lost mining time is not insignificant. In the time it takes to harvest 100 gas, those drones could have mined at least 100 minerals.
Then the drone you used to build the extractor is not mining either. But lets ignore this to make it simple.
So, you are spending 100 on the upgrade, 75 on the extractor, and losing 100+ on the lost mining time.
This means that you will be starting your expansion hatch almost as late as you would be staring your THIRD hatch, had you not gone for gas+speed.
Of course, you will need to get gas and speed anyway but your expansion is delayed which means you cannot mine from it until its up, nor do you have the larva to make drones.
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I think Leenock's mistake on Shakuras Plateau was allowing Naniwa to see his roaches approaching. If he had held the roaches back a few seconds longer out of vision and killed the zealots with his lings, Naniwa (might) have put down one extra cannon expecting ling pressure, but the fact he saw the roaches allowed him to put down several more cannons before they got there, which helped him hold it off until he got his void rays out.
Slightly off topic, but with that series Naniwa consistently got an early nexus and Leenock consistently got early roaches. Why would Naniwa not play safely and expand behind a few gateways? To keep doing the same thing every game and losing to the same didn't really make sense to me. Regardless, it was an interesting build by Leenock and I will more than likely be trying it out at some point. I'm in need of some *real* build orders, I usually wing it after I get ling speed and an expansion.
EDIT: thanks to the OP for writing it out, it was very helpful.
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On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
I agree, yet it is only a small sacrifice and can easily pay off, if your opponent makes one more defense.
Also it is the same for each other race... Hellion expand, 3gate expand, Forge before Nexus... All of that cries "I hope you react wrong", while those expands simply fall behind against a well exectued Nexus/Hatch/CC first.
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On November 22 2011 16:12 A_Bandersnatch wrote:
I think Leenock's mistake on Shakuras Plateau was allowing Naniwa to see his roaches approaching. If he had held the roaches back a few seconds longer out of vision and killed the zealots with his lings, Naniwa (might) have put down one extra cannon expecting ling pressure, but the fact he saw the roaches allowed him to put down several more cannons before they got there, which helped him hold it off until he got his void rays out.
Slightly off topic, but with that series Naniwa consistently got an early nexus and Leenock consistently got early roaches. Why would Naniwa not play safely and expand behind a few gateways? To keep doing the same thing every game and losing to the same didn't really make sense to me. Regardless, it was an interesting build by Leenock and I will more than likely be trying it out at some point. I'm in need of some *real* build orders, I usually wing it after I get ling speed and an expansion.
EDIT: thanks to the OP for writing it out, it was very helpful.
naniwa's build is not really geared towards getting units out really quick
if you look at it, he can really cut a lot of corners to get more units out by starting warpgate faster
alternatively, extremely fast void ray stops this ok, although you may lose the nexus the zerg already cancelled his hatch
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On November 22 2011 15:17 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control If you want quick Metabolic Boost, 15p15g is infinitely more economical.
Infinately as in how much?
I usually go 12p20h vs protoss tho. Take my gas asap if I scout that no expo from protoss is going on. That takes away the option to all in. Maybe I should try this 15p15g then and see if I can punish greedy protoss.
And I think the reason Leenocks all in on shakuras didnt work was mostly that shakuras is a bad map for that all in. Scouting had some part in it too of course.
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The meta game shifted vastly since IdrA failed this same build vs MC's fast voidrays. Stargate openers were much more safe before hydra drops/nydus all-ins became a religious counter. Not that the Hydra all-ins are as popular as they used to be anymore, but stargate openers in general rely on your opponent making mistakes and its just too easy to fall behind without making huge commitments to damage, and zergs are much better than they were. It's pretty easy to abuse, now.
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this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches.
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On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches.
Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons.
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On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons.
aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you.
Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool.
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On November 22 2011 21:57 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons. aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you. Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool.
I was watching an old VOD from Axslav's stream. I talks about how he doesn't get the scouting zealot when he goes startgate and just gets a sentry and an extra cannon. The sentry he wants anyways and will help vs baneling busts and the stargate kills anything with roaches in the composition because you can charge on a roach and then melt down the lings while you enforce your wall-in. I think people underestimate how bad it is to have a roach with your ling bust if they went stargate.
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This build been here since gsl 1 I dont see how its Leenock's build.
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Thanks for posting the BO from what you could gather from the VODs, it seems pretty close imo...additionally this will help a bunch with ZvP on ladder which has become unwinnable for me (not balance statement, personal flaw statement).
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This is very much like fake expand 4gate, just mind game really. I've also seen Nestea expanding but made no queens and uses the additional larvae from the expand to push with roach/sling, less of an all-in but your production will suffer if you can't do damage.
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On November 22 2011 23:02 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:57 Tommylew wrote:On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons. aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you. Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool. I was watching an old VOD from Axslav's stream. I talks about how he doesn't get the scouting zealot when he goes startgate and just gets a sentry and an extra cannon. The sentry he wants anyways and will help vs baneling busts and the stargate kills anything with roaches in the composition because you can charge on a roach and then melt down the lings while you enforce your wall-in. I think people underestimate how bad it is to have a roach with your ling bust if they went stargate.
I hate when someone spells spore wrong and then I get my name quoted 5 times v_v
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In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
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On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
so what exactly has changed? 2base Infestor allin is still viable, the difference is that now opponents have figured out that it is only an allin. True that the NP nerf changed a lot in terms of lowleague viability, in high level of play it didn't make too much difference. (Colossi and HT both were considered reasonable counters to Infestors before the nerf)
Furthermore... Zergs standard opening vs FFE is 3base... I don't see how this isn't a "reasonable" response.
It's just sad that people think that ANY zerg cheese is more rewarding than solid macro play, because it really isn't... The results of this cheese and 6pool cheeses and other allins of 1-2bases very early are extremly bad in tournament games. Once again it is true that this stuff is rather strong in lowlevel gaming, because being aggressive is just a thousand times easier than defending (the aggressor only falls behind if he makes mistakes, the defender flat out loses). It just means that if people have trouble against cheese, they have to improve. Else it wouldn't be cheese but standard gameplay and everyone with a tiny little bit of brain and everyone who earns his money by playing, would do it (if it was really sooo successful)
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On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again.
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On November 24 2011 05:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again.
Naniwa won 1 of those 2games...
Also I don't like the way you (and many others) use the term "punish"... A blind allin does not "punish" anything. It wins most of the time if an opponent doesn't scout or blindcounter it, but that has nothing to do with "punishment", it is a simple "I crossed my fingers really hard"-strategy.
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I did not mean the 2 base infestor build as an all-in but rather a stable mid game allowing you to play on even or worse macro but supperior tech, get 3rd,4th, macro-up, tech and build a stable army on T2. NP nerf (and fungal dps) changed a lot at high level of play to the point where the alternatives are far better - that is why almost any game these days no matter the matchup revolves around mutas(mostly) or roach hydra...same as it was like 8+ months before.
Seeing these games I think the metagame went in a circle to the beta stages - when the response to signs of macro play was cheese.
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With the hatch cancel roach rush and nexus cancel 5 gate, all we need is a cc cancel and the trinity will be complete.
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On November 24 2011 21:06 Giantt wrote:
I did not mean the 2 base infestor build as an all-in but rather a stable mid game allowing you to play on even or worse macro but supperior tech, get 3rd,4th, macro-up, tech and build a stable army on T2. NP nerf (and fungal dps) changed a lot at high level of play to the point where the alternatives are far better - that is why almost any game these days no matter the matchup revolves around mutas(mostly) or roach hydra...same as it was like 8+ months before.
Seeing these games I think the metagame went in a circle to the beta stages - when the response to signs of macro play was cheese.
It never was... 2base infestor has always been played as something like the "6infestor rush" with tons of IT + zerglings.
rarely it was played like you described it on high level... Furthermore, the moment 3hatch openings got popular everyone abbandoned the infestors before third. It's just like speedling expanding... you don't do it when you have the possibility to go hatch first without drawbacks (and you want to play macro)... It's really not like those infestor builds are so much worse these days, it's rather that other builds are simply better AND the fast infestor builds are really figuered out.
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On November 24 2011 05:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 05:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again. Naniwa won 1 of those 2games... Also I don't like the way you (and many others) use the term "punish"... A blind allin does not "punish" anything. It wins most of the time if an opponent doesn't scout or blindcounter it, but that has nothing to do with "punishment", it is a simple "I crossed my fingers really hard"-strategy.
Agree when seeing this on ladder, but in the context of this tournament and the BoX series, this is not a blind all-in, since there was a high probability that nani will play his greedy ffe variant.
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EPT
