Before the Intro : This thread will discuss how the Zerg can use an early roach / ling allin to crush Protoss FFE and Nexus first builds. It has a near 100% win rate on ladder (at a Master Level), has no obvious tells, and is virtually impossible (at this stage in the meta-game) to stop.
Disclaimer : This build is a much earlier and more aggressive version of later roach / ling timed aggression. I do not take credit for anything other than my guide and the specific build I call for, which was constructed independently by me and without access to professional (or other) replays. I do not know, but expect that this build has been used in some variation in the past. Whether or not it has, is to me, irrelevant. Complete originality will only rarely exist in a game which invites hundreds of thousands to experiment on it daily. This guide is mine, and the game itself belongs to Blizzard. Please limit discussion to what is germane to the topic.
Intro:
The contemporary zerg response to Protoss FFE's / Nexus first builds has been to take a fast third, macro, and stave up the inevitable Protoss response. Zergs have correctly ascertained that Protoss forge first and nexus first builds leave the Protoss player with precious few units through the majority of the early game, leaving them dependent upon their Sim City capabilities to survive.
Similarly, Protoss's have used these fast-expand styled builds to chrono probes, leaving their defense almost entirely upon 1-2 sentry's and 1-3 cannons. This leaves the Zerg in an awkward position, do they hatch first, ceding the initiative back to the Protoss and deal with the inevitable natural cannon rush, or do they go with a more conservative build (14/14) and suffer the economic consequences of competing with an economically aggressive Protoss?
The contention here is simple, a zerg going 14/14 is playing conservatively, but this conservative play is counter-productive if it leaves him economically behind going into the mid-game. Likewise, even if he is equal on bases and workers, game experience will tell us that he is still "behind" where he'd like / needs to be, ie. enjoying a significant base / worker advantage. Taking a fast 3rd here is a potential solution, but as with the hatch first option, it cedes initiative back to the Protoss, and allows him to dictate the tempo of the match.
The Response:
If the Zerg does not wish to allow the Protoss to take his natural uncontested and at a very early point in the game, he must pursue aggression. The problem here is that baneling busts are expensive and prone to failure when a few cannons, good building placement, and 1-2 sentry's are present. Roach rushes are predictable, easily scouted (by absence of an expansion and early gas), and offer very little in the realm of follow-up (roaches are painfully slow off-creep and pre-speed).
Roach-ling allins, by contrast, typically hit too late, and Protoss players have developed methods of determining when these allins are coming and how to deal with them when they do.
The solution is simple, design and execute a Roach-ling allin which hits far earlier than contemporary versions, and which still supplies the zerg with sufficient numbers to penetrate the Protoss wall-off and win the game. This thread is concerned with an all-in which cuts drones at 18-19 in standard play.
The Build:
This attack will hit between 7:10-7:30, the decision to allin is made relatively late (after 21 supply), and at any point before 5:00, if the Protoss deviates from his economically exclusive build, you may simply scrap plans to allin and proceed with a macro game as normal. Likewise, it is nearly impossible to scout and there are no obvious tells which warn the Protoss that an allin is coming. For this reason it is nearly impossible to stop when the Protoss decides to FFE, and this strategy has a virtual 100% win rate on ladder.
Below is a build-order of the roach-ling allin, replays will be provided. ----- 14 Gas (put 3 on gas until metabolic boost, then pull 2 off gas until lings arrive to deny a probe scout) 14 Pool 16 Overlord 16 Queen + Metabolic Boost 18 Zergling 19 Zergling 20 Drone (this is your hatchery drone, rally to natural) 21 Hatchery (at this point you can put your 2 drones back on gas) 20 Drone 21 Drone 22 Drone 23 Overlord 23 Roach Warren (this should be put down between the 4:50-5:00 minute mark) Overlord (this should bring you to a 44 supply cap)
At this point you will continue to deny probe scouts with the 4 lings at your natural, and pull all three drones off gas when you reach 200 gas.
When your roach warren pops, you construct and rally 8 roaches to outside your opponents natural wall-off, and use a single ling (this is important, you must keep some lings behind to deny potential probe scouts) to clear the towers.
Important - The Protoss will attempt a scout at some point between his initial scout and your roach-ling force moving out. Keep the majority of your lings close to your natural at all times, only sending 1-2 out to scout for hidden probes and to clear the towers. I prefer not to clear the towers until absolutely necessary, simply because you cannot be everywhere on the map, and the cost of a probe scout slipping through is drastic.
Continue to construct overlords as needed, and continue to rally in speedlings for support.
The initial attack should involve 8 roaches and some 20 odd speedlings at around 7:15, and when conducting the assault, break through an actual building (I prefer the forge as the easiest and weakest target) first and foremost (you must create a breach for your speedlings to really through), and then proceed to eliminate cannons and sentry's. If he has a dark shrine coming up, make sure you target it as soon as possible, wipe out his probes, and proceed to win the game.
The Protoss Response
This build leaves the Protoss with very few responses because it mimics (and carries out) a 14/14 speedling expand. Your speedlings will prevent a probe scout into your base, and because only 300 total gas is needed, there is no need to immediately keep 3 drones on gas after your initial 100 for speed. This means that the Protoss cannot expect gas to serve as an early indicator, nor the presence / non-presence of an expansion, which is put down at the regular time and with the normal support (4 lings to clear the probe at the natural and any blocking pylons).
The Protoss can sacrifice a probe when he estimates the roaches should be appearing, and then throw down cannons to block, but this is only effective on cross-positions on large maps (Antiga and Tal'Darim Altar LE come to mind), when he has the time to get extra cannons up. The zerg can counter this by keeping his zerglings near his base, and using 1-2 of them to clear nearby probes and the towers from the Protoss sight. Similarly, the Protoss cannot simply add more cannons preemptively, because without an indication that the zerg will allin, he will sacrifice the early economic boost which is his motivation to execute a forge fast-expand.
Edit: Posters have brought up the issue of zealot scouting, I believe this can be categorized in one of four ways; a single zealot scout, a zealot / probe scout, a double zealot scout, and a 5-6 zealot timing attack.
Zealot Scout (1) - This is not an issue, so long as you pump out a few zerglings before the 40 supply point, you should have 6-8 zerglings to clear out his zealot before it scouts anything of importance.
Zealot / Probe - This is more difficult, but no more threatening to the build than a zealot scout. Keep the 6-8 lings ahead of the roaches and clear out the watch-towers and the Protoss will be unaware.
Double Zealot (2) - This has promise from the Protoss's perspective, but it can be denied (searching for relevant replay) if the zerg acts correctly and uses his speedlings to isolate and eliminate the zealots. That being said, replay #1 deals with a Protoss who scouts this allin with a double-zealot and responds appropriately (I believe). He still loses.
5-6 Zealot Timing - This will not hit early enough to have an effect, and your roach / ling force will defeat him.
Conclusion
There is, therefore, very little a defending Protoss can do in the current meta-game environment. This build has been tested exclusively in high-Masters (I am a 1100+ Masters player at the time of writing) and has proven successful in all but one instance (cross-positions on Antiga with the Protoss achieving an ideal probe scout), but even here the game could conceivably still have been won, and later mistakes were probably more to blame for the loss than the Protoss holding the initial allin.
The advantage of this allin is simple, it is very difficult to scout, the Protoss has very few units with which to deal with it, and the decision to allin is made only when the Protoss has demonstrated himself vulnerable by pursuing a very aggressive economic strategy.
A common "Protoss" response is to chrono 2-zealots and to throw down a few extra cannons when the roach / ling allin is scouted. The Protoss puts up 4 cannons, but cannot stem the breach and loses.
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
In the 3rd replay (my loss) the Protoss cuts probes I believe at 24 and produces a total of 5-6 cannons. He did this upon scouting, and all or most of the cannons got completely up before receiving damage.
He held, but even here I believe it was close. I would expect 4-5 cannons at least need to be up, and the zerg will have to be kept (by probes) from simply running by with his roaches and lings and targeting down one or both of the Protoss's Nexus.
As for normal games, the Protoss often gets 2 cannons, and I have occasionally faced 3-4, but the result is usually the same, the Protoss cannot prevent runbys without a complete wall, and so zerglings continue to pour in, move past the cannons, and disrupt all mining. If the Protoss does not pull probes, all cannons will die and the zerg will simply win.
Does this hits before the 1st VoidRay comes out?
Yes, it does. Although the first Void Ray may (if chrono'd) come out before the game is over, the wall will have been breached and the flow of zerglings is too much for a single voidray to handle.
I really liked the point you made about the decision of the zerg to get fast third and then giving the initiative back to the toss. Those first two games were pretty sick, this is all masters replays right?
Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
On September 23 2011 09:40 Shorty90 wrote: wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
The first replay was incorrect, thanks for the catch, it should now be fixed.
The second replay is an example of it being used against 1-gate play, and the third replay is my only recorded loss.
The zealots should arrive at around the time the roaches are popping or slightly before. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen either build tested to it's exact timing. I"m thinking the zealots will get there sooner and get some free damage but I'm not sure.
Once the roaches are shown the extra cannons should be going down and I'd have to guess they'd be up in time since the roaches would have to clean up the 4-5 zealots at the Zerg's base first.
On September 23 2011 09:40 Shorty90 wrote: wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
The first replay was incorrect, thanks for the catch, it should now be fixed.
The second replay is an example of it being used against 1-gate play, and the third replay is my only recorded loss.
Gotcha. Looks nice, although I feel like this is beatable with better simcity especially on maps like shakuras or taldarim where the front of the natural gets completely walled of.
The FFE's that I do (saw Hero do) Have pressure with 3 zealots chrono'd seems that like would do a little bit of dammage to you and scout completly every time.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
The zealots should arrive at around the time the roaches are popping or slightly before. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen either build tested to it's exact timing. I"m thinking the zealots will get there sooner and get some free damage but I'm not sure.
Once the roaches are shown the extra cannons should be going down and I'd have to guess they'd be up in time since the roaches would have to clean up the 4-5 zealots at the Zerg's base first.
I've actually played against a build which starts with 4-5 zealots for pressure, and I haven't found it to be much trouble, I will find this replay for you and update the OP. In my experience (although my opponent may have simply executed it in a poor manner) the zealots are caught mid-way to the zerg base and are simply killed, and with minerals and time lost to zealot production the protoss is unprepared and loses.
The FFE's that I do (saw Hero do) Have pressure with 3 zealots chrono'd seems that like would do a little bit of dammage to you and scout completly every time.
How is this different then a 7RR anyway?
I would need the exact time these zealots hit to be sure, but I have played against zealot pressure off FFE and haven't found it to be much trouble.
More problematic for this build is actually 2-gate into expand, which I've seen some protoss do off Antiga, but that isn't nearly as secure against regular play as the FFE variant.
I really liked the point you made about the decision of the zerg to get fast third and then giving the initiative back to the toss. Those first two games were pretty sick, this is all masters replays right?
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience to be typical in the majority of Masters play, at least at the 900-1200 point level.
I have faced builds which chrono out zealots, but again, I do not find that they suffice in the majority of situations. Cannons take a good deal of time to build, and even with an early scout the toss cannot hold if their cannons cannot get up and their production went to zealots that are now dead. Furthermore, this zealot first opening is much more conservative than the status quo of FFE, and it is my hope that the trend of PvZ continues to move in that direction.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience to be typical in the majority of Masters play, at least at the 900-1200 point level.
I have faced builds which chrono out zealots, but again, I do not find that they suffice in the majority of situations. Cannons take a good deal of time to build, and even with an early scout the toss cannot hold if their cannons cannot get up and their production went to zealots that are now dead. Furthermore, this zealot first opening is much more conservative than the status quo of FFE, and it is my hope that the trend of PvZ continues to move in that direction.
I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, by all means, keep exploiting your opponents lack of scouting. That just means your further ahead than they are skill wise. But if you get to higher masters or maybe even GM, you'll find out this doesn't work. This is just roach ling all in off of 2 base.
Cannons take a while to build, sure, but a good Toss will scout this with enough time to react, especially with sentries.
EPT
