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On September 26 2011 15:07 Leyra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 04:31 Anihc wrote:
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
This this this and more this. I'm pretty sure the majority of Protoss with half a brain are immediately chronoing out 1-2 zealots, and sending those to scout, as well as hiding 1-2 probes around the map to check for third bases as well as spread harass pylons later (if not detected). If a protoss only makes extra cannons if they see extra roaches, then they're pretty awful. As RSVP has pointed out, there are numerous tells as to whether or not something is up, (gas mined, low drone count, no fast 3rd, etc.), and an intelligent protoss will add the extra cannon(s), and survive an all in, or be a few minerals behind in econ. Not saying this build is "bad" per se, but you're banking on protoss playing poorly, and that's kind of a weak way to play. Nothing wrong with a new cheese timing, but your really animated defense of this build just puzzles me... its a nice all in, but its nothing unstoppable, or anything.
This build accounts for probe scouting, so neither gas mined nor drone count can be counted on as tells. The absence of a fast third is a tell, but a Protoss can't be sure of that until past the 6:30 minute mark.
If a Protoss is careful, sends out the zealot, and catches the roaches on their way, he can add cannons and hold with good play. But this is not a sure thing. I've played against 4 cannons and have still won, the roach / sling composition does not melt away as soon as the Protoss scouts.
That being said, I now advocate pumping out a few extra lings before getting your overlord at 40 supply. These lings can be used to kill / drive off the zealot before he gets a scout of the roaches. An intelligent player using a zealot / probe scout will still be a problem, but zealot scouting is by no means a sure thing.
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I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
As always, comments are welcome.
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On October 12 2011 13:02 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
As always, comments are welcome.
I watched the rep, the protoss had a pretty slow reaction in putting up cannons after seeing your roach. He put up cannon 2 + another pylon, waited a few seconds, put another cannon, waited a few more seconds, and then put down a 4th cannon. When your attack hit none of the additional cannons had even finished. If he had cancelled probes + his 2 natural gases as soon as he saw the roach and immediately put down 3 more cannons, your attack would have been easily repulsed.
If anything, the replay just goes to show that your build is indeed scoutable. And it doesn't even take 2 zealots to scout that, you only made 4 lings and a 1 zealot scout would have been able to detect something fishy (and earlier too).
I really don't see what's so special about this, it looks like a standard 2 base roach/ling all-in. Ok, maybe it hits 30 seconds earlier than what nestea or losira did but what makes their build "standard?" At least for me, I wouldn't do anything different to stop this version than stopping a version that hits 30 seconds later.
EDIT: I'm sure your build is great and wins you lots of games, I know I still lose to builds like this on occasion. I just don't like your attitude when you call this build "unscoutable" or "100% win rate."
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On October 12 2011 13:14 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 13:02 ThomasHobbes wrote:
I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
As always, comments are welcome. I watched the rep, the protoss had a pretty slow reaction in putting up cannons after seeing your roach. He put up cannon 2 + another pylon, waited a few seconds, put another cannon, waited a few more seconds, and then put down a 4th cannon. When your attack hit none of the additional cannons had even finished. If he had cancelled probes + his 2 natural gases as soon as he saw the roach and immediately put down 3 more cannons, your attack would have been easily repulsed. If anything, the replay just goes to show that your build is indeed scoutable. And it doesn't even take 2 zealots to scout that, you only made 4 lings and a 1 zealot scout would have been able to detect something fishy (and earlier too). I really don't see what's so special about this, it looks like a standard 2 base roach/ling all-in.
I will upload replays of single-zealot scouts, suffice to say, they do not get near the roaches or manage to enter the base before they are surrounded by speedlings and killed.
4-lings are all the zerg has initially, but if the zerg makes 2-3 extra pairs between 38-40/41 supply, they will have 6-10 lings out to deal with the zealot before he manages to complete his scout. If he attempts to scout for a third, he will not complete the scout before your attack commences.
This all-in cuts significantly before conventional roach / ling allins, and its purpose is not to allow the zerg to take a third or to crush the Protoss fast expand, but rather to end the game as soon as the Protoss is scouted as FFE'ing.
As for the double-zealot, they can be isolated and killed by lings (10) if played correctly (I will upload this replay), and even in the first replay I believe I did a poor job of stopping his double-zealots, they should never have seen the roaches. Even then, however, it is unlikely to be stopped unless the map is Shakuras or cross-positions Antiga, where the distances are far enough that the cannons will finish.
I will also test whether this build can't be performed earlier than the 5:00 roach warren it originally calls for. If 6 roaches would suffice, a few dozen seconds might be cut off the build.
Edit: I understand your criticisms, and yes, it is quite extreme to say that this build has a near 100% win rate, I only say that because, in my experience, it is true.
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On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:
4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
How does this zealot/probe scout look like? I usually just cb out a zealot after laying down my cc (or sometimes 2) and scout with them. I also usually keep a 2nd probe out of my base somewhere hidden and send it around 5:30 to check drone count in his nat and try to sneak into the main. Are you somehow pushing with the probe+zealot together (which can beat 4 lings together)? Could you explain your zealot+probe scouting in more detail? This would help me a lot, thanks.
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If I'm breaking a commandment here, let me know, but I think that people shouldn't be responding to this thread unless they've tried it.
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On the matter of the 5-6 zealot timing. You say you hit at 7 to 7:30, at what point do you actually move out of your base. The 5-6 zealot +1 timing off a FFE arrives at the zerg base at a bit before 7. Assuming the protoss scouts the lack of fast third base and then encounters roaches wouldn't you have enough time to delay the push with your 5-6 zealots by engaging the roaches as they come across the map and hence be able to get sufficient cannons up in time (and also probably 2 sentries if you take a faster 2nd gas with your zealot timing).
Thoughts?
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On October 12 2011 16:17 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:
4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
How does this zealot/probe scout look like? I usually just cb out a zealot after laying down my cc (or sometimes 2) and scout with them. I also usually keep a 2nd probe out of my base somewhere hidden and send it around 5:30 to check drone count in his nat and try to sneak into the main. Are you somehow pushing with the probe+zealot together (which can beat 4 lings together)? Could you explain your zealot+probe scouting in more detail? This would help me a lot, thanks.
It depends, the majority of the time the zealot by itself can handle 4 lings, especially since it's usually like 2 lings outside your nat and 2 at the watchtowers. I believe that with perfect micro from both sides, 4 lings > 1 zealot, but in the aforementioned scenario you'll get a few early hits and then it'll be easy for the zealot to win. The zealot then goes to clear the watchtower, and once that's cleared and lings are running away from the zealot the probe can go and scout as well. Usually my zealot heads towards the zerg main while the probe checks to see if there's a 3rd. So in other words I try to hide the probe so the zerg doesn't know I'm also scouting with it. There are 2 exceptions though:
If there's only 1 ling outside my nat, or maybe 2 slow lings, I'll attack with both probe + zealot because a ling dies in 2 zealot + 1 probe shot so usually you can kill a ling rather than getting 2 zealot hits and the zerg realizing it and pulling it back to save it. Or if all 4 lings are outside my nat, you'll have to attack with both probe + zealot in order to win. Then proceed as above (send another probe if your first dies).
If there's more than 4 lings I'll chrono out another zealot, if there's way more than that then I'm mass cannoning up lol
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Any protoss who spends timing chrono'ing zealots out to scout this just gave the zerg what they wanted - for you not to be chrono'ing probes.
If the zerg is scouted and can see cannons going up, you can turn on a dime and play a standard game.
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On October 12 2011 17:17 darkscream wrote:
Any protoss who spends timing chrono'ing zealots out to scout this just gave the zerg what they wanted - for you not to be chrono'ing probes.
If the zerg is scouted and can see cannons going up, you can turn on a dime and play a standard game.
Please don't post stuff like this that is so incredibly wrong. If it costs 50 energy to chrono a zealot and only 25 for probes I would still chrono out that zealot in a heartbeat.
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On October 12 2011 17:04 Tazerenix wrote:
On the matter of the 5-6 zealot timing. You say you hit at 7 to 7:30, at what point do you actually move out of your base. The 5-6 zealot +1 timing off a FFE arrives at the zerg base at a bit before 7. Assuming the protoss scouts the lack of fast third base and then encounters roaches wouldn't you have enough time to delay the push with your 5-6 zealots by engaging the roaches as they come across the map and hence be able to get sufficient cannons up in time (and also probably 2 sentries if you take a faster 2nd gas with your zealot timing).
Thoughts?
Perhaps I just haven't had experience facing pure 5-6 zealot timings, but the one's I've seen meet the roach / ling force a little more than midway towards the Protoss base, are quite easily surrounded by lings, and the cost of getting these zealots out leaves the Protoss unprepared to defend once he loses them, which the roach / speedling force should have no problem doing.
If you'd like to find me on ladder (bogie.359) we can test this out and see exactly when the earliest 5-6 zealot build can hit and how much the Protoss can prepare for the coming allin based on this information.
On October 12 2011 17:17 darkscream wrote:
Any protoss who spends timing chrono'ing zealots out to scout this just gave the zerg what they wanted - for you not to be chrono'ing probes.
If the zerg is scouted and can see cannons going up, you can turn on a dime and play a standard game.
I agree with Anihc here, I do not believe the chrono'd zealot (or 2-zealots) is a waste, it gives essential scouting information in standard play, and with 2-zealots has a decent chance of scouting this allin as it is moving out.
As for playing standard, the Protoss is only likely to scout you as you are moving out to attack his base, your 4 lings will keep his probes away before then. That means that your roaches, speedlings, and overlords are already in production or completed, which in turn means that the heavy resource / time investment has already taken place, and playing standard at this point is suboptimal and not advised.
Even if he responds correctly and puts up 4-5 extra cannons, there is still a very good chance that you will break his wall and move into his base, I would suggest going forward with the actual attack regardless of his scout, because if you merely sit on your army investment you will be significantly behind, and the odds of a successful allin remain high against every FFE build, regardless of scouting ability.
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This is different than the normal roach ling all in?? this is the only roach ling all in ive ever done, or very similar to it.
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On October 12 2011 17:45 Warrice wrote:
This is different than the normal roach ling all in?? this is the only roach ling all in ive ever done, or very similar to it.
To be succinct, yes.
In detail, most roach-ling allins come at a later point and cut drones between 24 and 30+. I have heard it said, for instance, that 24 drones spread evenly between two bases will keep up a constant two-base roach / ling force with constant 2-hatch (with queen) sling reinforcements.
The intent of these all-ins vary, but they're mostly targeted towards a wide range of builds, including gate-first, which requires that they hit later in order to allow the Protoss's natural Nexus time to go down (and thus create a situation where the Protoss is especially vulnerable to attack).
This all-in specifically targets Forge-Fast-Expands. I do not recommend it versus any other match-up, and while it can be effective against gate-first builds, I would advise that you simply copy a professionals later roach-ling play (with the option of a fast 3rd) rather than trying to force this build into a situation it isn't designed to handle.
As for frequency of use, I developed this build independently and wrote the guide myself, the guide being all I ask credit for. If you have used this build before, great, I wish you the best of luck in future.
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EPT
