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ThomasHobbes v. Protoss FFE [G] - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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LtLolburger
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand365 Posts
September 23 2011 05:16 GMT
#41
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane. -Philip K. Dick
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 06:01:32
September 23 2011 05:43 GMT
#42
On September 23 2011 12:04 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.

After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:

  1. Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
  2. Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
  3. Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
  4. Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
  5. Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
  6. Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.


And that brings us more or less to now.

You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.


I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.

I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.

If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.


edit: I withdraw my criticisms as I had forgotten LosirA's method was a means to punish 3-gate sentry expand (and why protoss are usually opting for FFE nowadays). I still agree with the solutions most of the protoss players have stated in this thread, but my criticisms are simply not germane to the strategy, nor do I have any replays or VODs to support my view. I'll leave the OP spoilered here but it's not strictly relevant:

+ Show Spoiler +
Here are the threads after LosirA jaw-droppingly dominated Alicia in GSL May: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224424
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217419

Whatever you are proposing five months later is either the same or less efficient version of the build he was doing (which has the same number of units).

You say it's a necessary step backwards, but isn't it just possible that the players you are matched against aren't good enough to know the counters? I mean, 6 pool works consistently well against mid and high level master players (and even GM protoss on occasion), and this is a very easily counterable cheese.

I don't think it's anything but a reproduction of a strategy that has been well known for four months, and you've just put your name on it and provided some unconvincing replays.


The reason so many protoss players (among other posters) have presented methods to stop this is because they have had five months to think about it. I feel like you're not only taking undue credit for a strategy you didn't originate, but also misrepresenting its ability to punish FFE. You're right in that it probably consistently works, but the solutions are already pretty well established.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
September 23 2011 05:50 GMT
#43
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote:
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.


This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.

To address some of the other suggestions :

Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.

Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.

I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
September 23 2011 05:53 GMT
#44
Yeah it was a good game. I played poorly overall but it's a strong attack.
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
September 23 2011 06:14 GMT
#45
GSL spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
Well, in code A right now sage vs check you can see check doing a build with a similar timing. Hit at 730 and gets completely demolished by simcity and a void ray.

It's rather Bleak for Check at this point.

ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 06:27:07
September 23 2011 06:24 GMT
#46
On September 23 2011 14:43 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 12:04 ThomasHobbes wrote:
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.

After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:

  1. Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
  2. Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
  3. Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
  4. Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
  5. Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
  6. Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.


And that brings us more or less to now.

You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.


I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.

I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.

If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.


Here are the threads after LosirA jaw-droppingly dominated Alicia in GSL May: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224424
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217419

Whatever you are proposing five months later is either the same or less efficient version of the build he was doing (which has the same number of units).

You say it's a necessary step backwards, but isn't it just possible that the players you are matched against aren't good enough to know the counters? I mean, 6 pool works consistently well against mid and high level master players (and even GM protoss on occasion), and this is a very easily counterable cheese.

I don't think it's anything but a reproduction of a strategy that has been well known for four months, and you've just put your name on it and provided some unconvincing replays.


The reason so many protoss players (among other posters) have presented methods to stop this is because they have had five months to think about it. I feel like you're not only taking undue credit for a strategy you didn't originate, but also misrepresenting its ability to punish FFE. You're right in that it probably consistently works, but the solutions are already pretty well established.


Edited Edit : I saw Michael's edit, and my comments are no longer relevant. Losira's build is different, hits at a different time, and has a fundamentally different purpose.

To address your 6-pool comparison.

6-pools are easily scouted by the Protoss, and when scouted, there are immediate steps which may be taken to prevent its success. Furthermore, the move is made blindly by the Zerg, he cannot know what strategy the Protoss will take and he has no time to scout.

This decision to take this allin, by contrast, is decided only after determining that the Protoss is engaging in a risky, econ-heavy build, is strong even against conservative Protoss builds, and the only response which seems reasonably likely to hold is significantly more conservative than contemporary FFE on ladder.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 06:29:20
September 23 2011 06:24 GMT
#47
On September 23 2011 14:50 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote:
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.


This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.

To address some of the other suggestions :

Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.

Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.

I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.



I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.

vs Michael vs Nick [image loading]

I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.

Thanks for sharing


edit: Also, for what it's worth, this is almost exactly the build that Tang (Top Master/GM on NA Ladder) uses almost exclusively in 1v1. The only difference is that he is usually able to deny the scout quicker, and mines 300 gas for a 12 roach / mass speedling all-in. This is usually the only build he ever does vs P and T.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 06:31:32
September 23 2011 06:29 GMT
#48
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.

And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.

Rofl.

Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.

Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.

Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?

Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".

Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.

No troll.

Edit : Tang is topnotch.

jk
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
September 23 2011 06:36 GMT
#49
On September 23 2011 15:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 14:50 ThomasHobbes wrote:
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote:
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.


This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.

To address some of the other suggestions :

Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.

Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.

I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.



I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.

vs Michael vs Nick [image loading]

I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.

Thanks for sharing


I feel that the 2-zealot opener can deal with this build, that is, it certainly isn't a build-order loss, however the 2-zealot opener is more conservative than greedier FFE, and pushing Protoss towards more conservative play is a good I hadn't dared hope to achieve with this build. Even then, however, the outcome is very much in doubt, and the potential to do large amounts of damage and punish greed often leaves the Zerg in an equal or better position than his opponent, even if the actual assault does not end the game.

That being said, I agree, I prefer standard play, but standard play includes punishing greedy builds when present, and I don't feel most FFE pass muster when it comes to defending this allin.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
September 23 2011 06:39 GMT
#50
What is beyond me is why people FFE and not 15 nexus.

Other than being safe vs a 6pool I guess. Or a proxy hatch I guess...

Maybe I'm noob.
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
September 23 2011 06:46 GMT
#51
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote:
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.

And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.

Rofl.

Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.

Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.

Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?

Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".

Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.

No troll.

Edit : Tang is topnotch.

jk


I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.

It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.

I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
September 23 2011 06:46 GMT
#52
On September 23 2011 15:36 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 15:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:
On September 23 2011 14:50 ThomasHobbes wrote:
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote:
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.


This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.

To address some of the other suggestions :

Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.

Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.

I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.



I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.

vs Michael vs Nick [image loading]

I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.

Thanks for sharing


I feel that the 2-zealot opener can deal with this build, that is, it certainly isn't a build-order loss, however the 2-zealot opener is more conservative than greedier FFE, and pushing Protoss towards more conservative play is a good I hadn't dared hope to achieve with this build. Even then, however, the outcome is very much in doubt, and the potential to do large amounts of damage and punish greed often leaves the Zerg in an equal or better position than his opponent, even if the actual assault does not end the game.

That being said, I agree, I prefer standard play, but standard play includes punishing greedy builds when present, and I don't feel most FFE pass muster when it comes to defending this allin.


I think the key is just sending out a second probe to get general scouting information. When your initial probe is chased out, have a second ready to waltz in and try get a glimpse at the tech path. It's faster than an observer and costs less to reveal potentially critical information.

That second probe can reveal at the very least, workers returned to gas before the second queen has been built. This is a telltale sign of an impending all-in, as it delays the 2nd queen significantly (or indefinitely).

I'll probably use this on ladder whenever I don't feel like playing protoss.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
September 23 2011 06:49 GMT
#53
On September 23 2011 15:46 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote:
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.

And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.

Rofl.

Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.

Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.

Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?

Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".

Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.

No troll.

Edit : Tang is topnotch.


jk


I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.

It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.

I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.


Well, realistically speaking. Zergs are expanding with 2-6 zerglings... That's pretty greedy. And there isn't a ton protoss can do. Especially things that are "unscoutable".

What should I do!

Other than 15nexus and winout.
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
September 23 2011 06:59 GMT
#54
On September 23 2011 15:49 Vlare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 15:46 ThomasHobbes wrote:
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote:
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.

And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.

Rofl.

Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.

Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.

Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?

Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".

Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.

No troll.

Edit : Tang is topnotch.


jk


I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.

It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.

I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.


Well, realistically speaking. Zergs are expanding with 2-6 zerglings... That's pretty greedy. And there isn't a ton protoss can do. Especially things that are "unscoutable".

What should I do!

Other than 15nexus and winout.


A 14/14 speedling build is rather conservative, so I disagree, but yes, a hatch-first zerg is often punished for expanding when he has no offensive units in play. Excessive greed by any race can and will be punished, that is what this all-in offers.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
warblob004
Profile Joined January 2011
United States198 Posts
September 23 2011 07:50 GMT
#55
Looks really interesting... 3hatch hydra here I come :D

Btw.. how is this very different from the roach/ling that attacks the 3gate sentry expo
just the lack of 3rd hatch?
"I have not failed; I've simply found 10,000 ways it won't work." ~Thomas Edison
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
September 23 2011 07:57 GMT
#56
On September 23 2011 16:50 warblob004 wrote:
Looks really interesting... 3hatch hydra here I come :D

Btw.. how is this very different from the roach/ling that attacks the 3gate sentry expo
just the lack of 3rd hatch?


The op is just going to tell you to look at the builds/timings and tell you it's a different build.

And it's "different" because it kills a different type of build.

Even though at the end of the day they're roach/ling all ins.

Also the 3g fe roach/ling all in has more drones.
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
jeb3
Profile Joined September 2010
United States27 Posts
September 23 2011 08:15 GMT
#57
As a zerg player I could see this working consistently on maps where the FFE wall is a bit more exposed, like Shattered, TDA, Metal, Xel' Naga, etc. On maps like Shakuras tho.... with proper scouting it should be an easy hold IMO: span cannons chrono sentires.

Either way, good build to keep Protoss honest ;D. Thx
vol_
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1608 Posts
September 23 2011 09:25 GMT
#58
Oh man I love punishing these greedy Toss. Tried the build out and won 4 games straight vs FFE.
My ZvT and ZvZ are like 80% and my ZvP was ~35%, this should help me climb up a bit, thanks!
It's also pretty funny when the toss goes FFE into 2 gate zealots.. lol..
Jaedong gives me a deep resonance.
freewareplayer
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany403 Posts
September 23 2011 11:08 GMT
#59
defintely goin to try this out, cheers for figuring out the timings.

Looks to me as if this is a 2 base adaption of wzp`s build, same principle behind it. Make a set number of roaches at time X, to bust the wall, and follow up with pure speedling to overwhelm the P.
Since wzp`s build prooved so effective before warpgate changes, i can see this new build of 2 bases working quite well in this metagame.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 15:57:07
September 23 2011 15:44 GMT
#60
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
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