ThomasHobbes v. Protoss FFE [G] - Page 3

On September 23 2011 12:04 ThomasHobbes wrote:


I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.

I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.

If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.

On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote:
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.

On September 23 2011 14:43 michaelhasanalias wrote:


Here are the threads after LosirA jaw-droppingly dominated Alicia in GSL May: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224424
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217419

Whatever you are proposing five months later is either the same or less efficient version of the build he was doing (which has the same number of units).

You say it's a necessary step backwards, but isn't it just possible that the players you are matched against aren't good enough to know the counters? I mean, 6 pool works consistently well against mid and high level master players (and even GM protoss on occasion), and this is a very easily counterable cheese.

I don't think it's anything but a reproduction of a strategy that has been well known for four months, and you've just put your name on it and provided some unconvincing replays.


The reason so many protoss players (among other posters) have presented methods to stop this is because they have had five months to think about it. I feel like you're not only taking undue credit for a strategy you didn't originate, but also misrepresenting its ability to punish FFE. You're right in that it probably consistently works, but the solutions are already pretty well established.

On September 23 2011 14:50 ThomasHobbes wrote:


This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.

To address some of the other suggestions :

Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.

Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.

I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.

On September 23 2011 15:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:



I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.

vs Michael vs Nick

I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.

Thanks for sharing

On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote:
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.

And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.

Rofl.

Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.

Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.

Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?

Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".

Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.

No troll.

Edit : Tang is topnotch.

jk

On September 23 2011 15:36 ThomasHobbes wrote:


I feel that the 2-zealot opener can deal with this build, that is, it certainly isn't a build-order loss, however the 2-zealot opener is more conservative than greedier FFE, and pushing Protoss towards more conservative play is a good I hadn't dared hope to achieve with this build. Even then, however, the outcome is very much in doubt, and the potential to do large amounts of damage and punish greed often leaves the Zerg in an equal or better position than his opponent, even if the actual assault does not end the game.

That being said, I agree, I prefer standard play, but standard play includes punishing greedy builds when present, and I don't feel most FFE pass muster when it comes to defending this allin.

On September 23 2011 15:46 ThomasHobbes wrote:


I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.

It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.

I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.

On September 23 2011 15:49 Vlare wrote:


Well, realistically speaking. Zergs are expanding with 2-6 zerglings... That's pretty greedy. And there isn't a ton protoss can do. Especially things that are "unscoutable".

What should I do!

Other than 15nexus and winout.

On September 23 2011 16:50 warblob004 wrote:
Looks really interesting... 3hatch hydra here I come :D

Btw.. how is this very different from the roach/ling that attacks the 3gate sentry expo
just the lack of 3rd hatch?