EPTThomasHobbes v. Protoss FFE [G] - Page 2
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killgoreisleet
United States12 Posts
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On September 23 2011 11:11 Flonomenalz wrote: I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, by all means, keep exploiting your opponents lack of scouting. That just means your further ahead than they are skill wise. But if you get to higher masters or maybe even GM, you'll find out this doesn't work. This is just roach ling all in off of 2 base. Cannons take a while to build, sure, but a good Toss will scout this with enough time to react, especially with sentries. Please give me times for when these 3 zealots will reach my natural, this build is much more conservative than what I see played as standard on ladder, and while I imagine professional players would have the ability to stop this, I do not believe they can stop it using greedy play that is often in vogue. Nice build, I think if this is scouted a protoss could have 2-3 cannons out, 4 sentries and 2 voidrays out in time to hold it off. This build, when played correctly, cannot be scouted before the 6:20 mark, the Protoss cannot scout with probes, and must suicide zealots into your base without prior information to determine if you're going this allin or the much more standard speedling expand. A single voidray will have time to finish if he went star-gate, which in turn means he will not have much else, and if he does decide to pump out sentry's, it is irrelevant, because the zerg is not attempting to target down the cannons (which protoss can ff to block), but rather one of the buildings itself, it is the constant reinforcement of speedlings which allows this build to knock down the wall directly, make ff micro irrelevant, and win the game. | ||
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MMello
279 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already. After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
And that brings us more or less to now. You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
The reason that I ask is that for my part at least, when I FFE I make no less than two cannons unless I am very certain of what the Zerg is doing, and often make three or four if I have been entirely unable to scout. In addition, because you are going gas-pool, this leaves the Protoss player with the option of going nexus-forge-cannon if they scout you in time, or if they get unlucky and find you on the second or third spot they scout, they can go forge-nexus-cannon which leaves them ahead of you, especially if they get creative with hatch blocking, it is not uncommon to be able to have a finished nexus or 60-70% complete nexus at the time the hatchery is begun for the Zerg. In that position, the Protoss is significantly ahead, and realistically has no reason not to make at least three cannons. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already. After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
And that brings us more or less to now. You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop. I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base. I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend. If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options. How many cannons would you estimate are required to hold this attack with no significant losses? Two? Three? More? Or is it map-dependant? The reason that I ask is that for my part at least, when I FFE I make no less than two cannons unless I am very certain of what the Zerg is doing, and often make three or four if I have been entirely unable to scout. In addition, because you are going gas-pool, this leaves the Protoss player with the option of going nexus-forge-cannon if they scout you in time, or if they get unlucky and find you on the second or third spot they scout, they can go forge-nexus-cannon which leaves them ahead of you, especially if they get creative with hatch blocking, it is not uncommon to be able to have a finished nexus or 60-70% complete nexus at the time the hatchery is begun for the Zerg. In that position, the Protoss is significantly ahead, and realistically has no reason not to make at least three cannons. Against a protoss who scouted this build at the earliest and defended well, 5 cannons and 2 sentry's on cross positions (Antiga) were enough to hold the allin, although I called off the allin with a 5 drone lead. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:04 ThomasHobbes wrote: If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options. So what you're saying is. Protoss need to revist their build, that they can maybe or maybe not be even or behind with. To make sure we can hold an unscoutable all in. So that. In the case of the unscoutable all in, we are safe. Did I get that right? | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:09 Vlare wrote: So what you're saying is. Protoss need to revist their build, that they can maybe or maybe not be even or behind with. To make sure we can hold an unscoutable all in. So that. In the case of the unscoutable all in, we are safe. Did I get that right? I am not a Protoss player, so I won't make recommendations which I can't, in terms of requisite knowledge, make. This thread exposes a particular method of defeating the vast majority of FFE and Nexus-first styles. It was tested (and is currently still being tested) at a 1100-1200 Masters level, and I will continue to test it as I rise. At the time of writing, the third replay I posted is my only loss using this build against FFE styles. For that reason, I recommend it to zergs who are interested in punishing what I consider an excessively greedy style of play on the part of the Protoss player. | ||
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Contractor
United States41 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Similarly, Protoss's have used these fast-expand styled builds to chrono probes, leaving their defense almost entirely upon 1-2 sentry's and 1-3 cannons. This leaves the Zerg in an awkward position, do they hatch first, ceding the initiative back to the Protoss and deal with the inevitable natural cannon rush, or do they go with a more conservative build (14/14) and suffer the economic consequences of competing with an economically aggressive Protoss? For what it's worth, there is middle ground. You can build a pool before a hatchery without mining gas. your economy will be much stronger than when going 14/14 and speed is unnecessary against a FFE. if you scout a gateway you can still start mining gas and get speed in time for 4-gate or usual stuff. This kind of all-in is a good build to have though, because there are some maps (nerazim crypt, abysmal caverns close spawns) that toss like to FFE on but also have incredibly short rush distances so zerg may want to 14/14 for safety. so this is another option after opening gas first. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:18 Contractor wrote: Voidray at ~650 in game time after FFE. Voidrays are used because they normally come out right before any 2 base zerg all ins. Protoss has 2 voidrays by the time you break wall, and then, they should send their probes to their main and walling with 3 pylons on bottom, then 3 pylons on top to delay and let probes live. 2 voidrays is enough so you cant take out nexus. What exactly are you doing to get your Voidray out at 6:50? I don't see that timing as standard, normally I see them out by the 7:10-7:25 mark, at which you are already assaulting their base and a single voidray is not going to suffice. The Zerg has 1.5 bases of production (10 larva a cycle) when this hits, he can continue to send 26-28 zerglings a minute to your base, so long as the original roach / ling composition pokes a hole in your wall (by targeting down the forge and fighting cannons), the speedlings can swarm in to victory. Perhaps voidray timing can be altered to come out earlier, I don't know, but in my experience current star-gate openers are insufficient to deal with this allin. For what it's worth, there is middle ground. You can build a pool before a hatchery without mining gas. your economy will be much stronger than when going 14/14 and speed is unnecessary against a FFE. if you scout a gateway you can still start mining gas and get speed in time for 4-gate or usual stuff. This kind of all-in is a good build to have though, because there are some maps (nerazim crypt, abysmal caverns close spawns) that toss like to FFE on but also have incredibly short rush distances so zerg may want to 14/14 for safety. so this is another option after opening gas first. This is certainly viable, but I don't see the need to take that route if a win is currently available against greedy FFE styles. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13973 Posts
Thank you for improving my game :p | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build. Just saying. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:35 JonnyLaw wrote: Well, I just watched a replay from a game I played before reading this thread. By 6 minutes I have two zealots scouting across the map clearing watch towers and heading to the zerg base to see what's happening. I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build. Just saying. Your zealots will not reach the zerg's base before his roaches pop (which is sometime between 6:15-6:25). On cross-positions, yes, I believe the potential for a quick zealot scout is viable, but you will lose both zealots and it is likely to be close even in the event of a scout. Your forge will go down, and unless you prevent the zerg from simply continuing on into your base, you will lose the game. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On September 23 2011 12:44 ThomasHobbes wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 23 2011 12:35 JonnyLaw wrote: Well, I just watched a replay from a game I played before reading this thread. By 6 minutes I have two zealots scouting across the map clearing watch towers and heading to the zerg base to see what's happening. I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build. Just saying. Your zealots will not reach the zerg's base before his roaches pop (which is sometime between 6:15-6:25). On cross-positions, yes, I believe the potential for a quick zealot scout is viable, but you will lose both zealots and it is likely to be close even in the event of a scout. Your forge will go down, and unless you prevent the zerg from simply continuing on into your base, you will lose the game. This is after a forge expand. Sometimes you lose the zealots, other times it's not needed. If you hug walls and micro zealots will more than pay for themselves in zergling kills. 10 pylon/14 forge/ 17 nexus/pylon/gate/cannon after scouting a 14 pool knowing the cannon does not need to go down first. With the roaches being scouted. I can produce more cannons and chrono stalkers. We can play any map you want and I'll show you. dGJonnyLaw.662 | ||
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
doubt your gonna bust that with roaches and lings if he continues to chrono void rays and reinforce with back cannons. will it work if protoss doesnt scout and plays really really greedy? yes, but any all-in would at that point. i highly doubt you have a 100% win rate at any level with this build | ||
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
I think this is stronger on some maps than others, but it's no more impossible to scout and defend than any other 2-base all-in; Protoss has to slip a probe or zealot past the speedlings and check for 3rd bases, drone counts, early units, gas being mined, etc. If this all-in gets scouted it fails like any other all-in. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On September 23 2011 13:29 bGr.MetHiX wrote: I'm a 1250 masters toss on eu and i want to say that this is easily counterable by chronoing out a sentry,then a stalker and another stalker while getting cannons at back.when forge fast expanding i take a second scouting probe and hide it around the map.i try to scout a fast third,if i dont see a fast third with my second probe i start the chronoing and adding a 3rd cannon.the key to a FFE is the scouting around the 6th-7th mark and every half decent protoss player knows howto scout this and react correspondingly.of course there is a way to see whether u pulled those drones off gas. This build isn't vs a 1gate expand, it's a build to counter the FFE, which is a lot more greedy, and the basis of his argument: a risky, but powerful early game push can and should be used to punish greedy players. | ||
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