Before the Intro : This thread will discuss how the Zerg can use an early roach / ling allin to crush Protoss FFE and Nexus first builds. It has a near 100% win rate on ladder (at a Master Level), has no obvious tells, and is virtually impossible (at this stage in the meta-game) to stop.
Disclaimer : This build is a much earlier and more aggressive version of later roach / ling timed aggression. I do not take credit for anything other than my guide and the specific build I call for, which was constructed independently by me and without access to professional (or other) replays. I do not know, but expect that this build has been used in some variation in the past. Whether or not it has, is to me, irrelevant. Complete originality will only rarely exist in a game which invites hundreds of thousands to experiment on it daily. This guide is mine, and the game itself belongs to Blizzard. Please limit discussion to what is germane to the topic.
Intro:
The contemporary zerg response to Protoss FFE's / Nexus first builds has been to take a fast third, macro, and stave up the inevitable Protoss response. Zergs have correctly ascertained that Protoss forge first and nexus first builds leave the Protoss player with precious few units through the majority of the early game, leaving them dependent upon their Sim City capabilities to survive.
Similarly, Protoss's have used these fast-expand styled builds to chrono probes, leaving their defense almost entirely upon 1-2 sentry's and 1-3 cannons. This leaves the Zerg in an awkward position, do they hatch first, ceding the initiative back to the Protoss and deal with the inevitable natural cannon rush, or do they go with a more conservative build (14/14) and suffer the economic consequences of competing with an economically aggressive Protoss?
The contention here is simple, a zerg going 14/14 is playing conservatively, but this conservative play is counter-productive if it leaves him economically behind going into the mid-game. Likewise, even if he is equal on bases and workers, game experience will tell us that he is still "behind" where he'd like / needs to be, ie. enjoying a significant base / worker advantage. Taking a fast 3rd here is a potential solution, but as with the hatch first option, it cedes initiative back to the Protoss, and allows him to dictate the tempo of the match.
The Response:
If the Zerg does not wish to allow the Protoss to take his natural uncontested and at a very early point in the game, he must pursue aggression. The problem here is that baneling busts are expensive and prone to failure when a few cannons, good building placement, and 1-2 sentry's are present. Roach rushes are predictable, easily scouted (by absence of an expansion and early gas), and offer very little in the realm of follow-up (roaches are painfully slow off-creep and pre-speed).
Roach-ling allins, by contrast, typically hit too late, and Protoss players have developed methods of determining when these allins are coming and how to deal with them when they do.
The solution is simple, design and execute a Roach-ling allin which hits far earlier than contemporary versions, and which still supplies the zerg with sufficient numbers to penetrate the Protoss wall-off and win the game. This thread is concerned with an all-in which cuts drones at 18-19 in standard play.
The Build:
This attack will hit between 7:10-7:30, the decision to allin is made relatively late (after 21 supply), and at any point before 5:00, if the Protoss deviates from his economically exclusive build, you may simply scrap plans to allin and proceed with a macro game as normal. Likewise, it is nearly impossible to scout and there are no obvious tells which warn the Protoss that an allin is coming. For this reason it is nearly impossible to stop when the Protoss decides to FFE, and this strategy has a virtual 100% win rate on ladder.
Below is a build-order of the roach-ling allin, replays will be provided. ----- 14 Gas (put 3 on gas until metabolic boost, then pull 2 off gas until lings arrive to deny a probe scout) 14 Pool 16 Overlord 16 Queen + Metabolic Boost 18 Zergling 19 Zergling 20 Drone (this is your hatchery drone, rally to natural) 21 Hatchery (at this point you can put your 2 drones back on gas) 20 Drone 21 Drone 22 Drone 23 Overlord 23 Roach Warren (this should be put down between the 4:50-5:00 minute mark) Overlord (this should bring you to a 44 supply cap)
At this point you will continue to deny probe scouts with the 4 lings at your natural, and pull all three drones off gas when you reach 200 gas.
When your roach warren pops, you construct and rally 8 roaches to outside your opponents natural wall-off, and use a single ling (this is important, you must keep some lings behind to deny potential probe scouts) to clear the towers.
Important - The Protoss will attempt a scout at some point between his initial scout and your roach-ling force moving out. Keep the majority of your lings close to your natural at all times, only sending 1-2 out to scout for hidden probes and to clear the towers. I prefer not to clear the towers until absolutely necessary, simply because you cannot be everywhere on the map, and the cost of a probe scout slipping through is drastic.
Continue to construct overlords as needed, and continue to rally in speedlings for support.
The initial attack should involve 8 roaches and some 20 odd speedlings at around 7:15, and when conducting the assault, break through an actual building (I prefer the forge as the easiest and weakest target) first and foremost (you must create a breach for your speedlings to really through), and then proceed to eliminate cannons and sentry's. If he has a dark shrine coming up, make sure you target it as soon as possible, wipe out his probes, and proceed to win the game.
The Protoss Response
This build leaves the Protoss with very few responses because it mimics (and carries out) a 14/14 speedling expand. Your speedlings will prevent a probe scout into your base, and because only 300 total gas is needed, there is no need to immediately keep 3 drones on gas after your initial 100 for speed. This means that the Protoss cannot expect gas to serve as an early indicator, nor the presence / non-presence of an expansion, which is put down at the regular time and with the normal support (4 lings to clear the probe at the natural and any blocking pylons).
The Protoss can sacrifice a probe when he estimates the roaches should be appearing, and then throw down cannons to block, but this is only effective on cross-positions on large maps (Antiga and Tal'Darim Altar LE come to mind), when he has the time to get extra cannons up. The zerg can counter this by keeping his zerglings near his base, and using 1-2 of them to clear nearby probes and the towers from the Protoss sight. Similarly, the Protoss cannot simply add more cannons preemptively, because without an indication that the zerg will allin, he will sacrifice the early economic boost which is his motivation to execute a forge fast-expand.
Edit: Posters have brought up the issue of zealot scouting, I believe this can be categorized in one of four ways; a single zealot scout, a zealot / probe scout, a double zealot scout, and a 5-6 zealot timing attack.
Zealot Scout (1) - This is not an issue, so long as you pump out a few zerglings before the 40 supply point, you should have 6-8 zerglings to clear out his zealot before it scouts anything of importance.
Zealot / Probe - This is more difficult, but no more threatening to the build than a zealot scout. Keep the 6-8 lings ahead of the roaches and clear out the watch-towers and the Protoss will be unaware.
Double Zealot (2) - This has promise from the Protoss's perspective, but it can be denied (searching for relevant replay) if the zerg acts correctly and uses his speedlings to isolate and eliminate the zealots. That being said, replay #1 deals with a Protoss who scouts this allin with a double-zealot and responds appropriately (I believe). He still loses.
5-6 Zealot Timing - This will not hit early enough to have an effect, and your roach / ling force will defeat him.
Conclusion
There is, therefore, very little a defending Protoss can do in the current meta-game environment. This build has been tested exclusively in high-Masters (I am a 1100+ Masters player at the time of writing) and has proven successful in all but one instance (cross-positions on Antiga with the Protoss achieving an ideal probe scout), but even here the game could conceivably still have been won, and later mistakes were probably more to blame for the loss than the Protoss holding the initial allin.
The advantage of this allin is simple, it is very difficult to scout, the Protoss has very few units with which to deal with it, and the decision to allin is made only when the Protoss has demonstrated himself vulnerable by pursuing a very aggressive economic strategy.
A common "Protoss" response is to chrono 2-zealots and to throw down a few extra cannons when the roach / ling allin is scouted. The Protoss puts up 4 cannons, but cannot stem the breach and loses.
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
In the 3rd replay (my loss) the Protoss cuts probes I believe at 24 and produces a total of 5-6 cannons. He did this upon scouting, and all or most of the cannons got completely up before receiving damage.
He held, but even here I believe it was close. I would expect 4-5 cannons at least need to be up, and the zerg will have to be kept (by probes) from simply running by with his roaches and lings and targeting down one or both of the Protoss's Nexus.
As for normal games, the Protoss often gets 2 cannons, and I have occasionally faced 3-4, but the result is usually the same, the Protoss cannot prevent runbys without a complete wall, and so zerglings continue to pour in, move past the cannons, and disrupt all mining. If the Protoss does not pull probes, all cannons will die and the zerg will simply win.
Does this hits before the 1st VoidRay comes out?
Yes, it does. Although the first Void Ray may (if chrono'd) come out before the game is over, the wall will have been breached and the flow of zerglings is too much for a single voidray to handle.
I really liked the point you made about the decision of the zerg to get fast third and then giving the initiative back to the toss. Those first two games were pretty sick, this is all masters replays right?
Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
On September 23 2011 09:08 4kmonk wrote: Wrong forum dude
Wow... read the 1 response before yours, ><
Anyway, this looks like a great build that I really hope no one uses so I can keep FFEing, but just wondering how does it do if the protoss gets more cannons than usual, say 2 or 3? Have you used it against toss with unusually high numbers of cannons?
On September 23 2011 09:40 Shorty90 wrote: wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
The first replay was incorrect, thanks for the catch, it should now be fixed.
The second replay is an example of it being used against 1-gate play, and the third replay is my only recorded loss.
The zealots should arrive at around the time the roaches are popping or slightly before. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen either build tested to it's exact timing. I"m thinking the zealots will get there sooner and get some free damage but I'm not sure.
Once the roaches are shown the extra cannons should be going down and I'd have to guess they'd be up in time since the roaches would have to clean up the 4-5 zealots at the Zerg's base first.
On September 23 2011 09:40 Shorty90 wrote: wait... why are you talking about crushing Forge fast expand and then post 2 replays of 1 gate expands and 1 replay of Forge fast expand where you lose. Am I watching the wrong replays? 0.o
The first replay was incorrect, thanks for the catch, it should now be fixed.
The second replay is an example of it being used against 1-gate play, and the third replay is my only recorded loss.
Gotcha. Looks nice, although I feel like this is beatable with better simcity especially on maps like shakuras or taldarim where the front of the natural gets completely walled of.
The FFE's that I do (saw Hero do) Have pressure with 3 zealots chrono'd seems that like would do a little bit of dammage to you and scout completly every time.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
The zealots should arrive at around the time the roaches are popping or slightly before. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen either build tested to it's exact timing. I"m thinking the zealots will get there sooner and get some free damage but I'm not sure.
Once the roaches are shown the extra cannons should be going down and I'd have to guess they'd be up in time since the roaches would have to clean up the 4-5 zealots at the Zerg's base first.
I've actually played against a build which starts with 4-5 zealots for pressure, and I haven't found it to be much trouble, I will find this replay for you and update the OP. In my experience (although my opponent may have simply executed it in a poor manner) the zealots are caught mid-way to the zerg base and are simply killed, and with minerals and time lost to zealot production the protoss is unprepared and loses.
The FFE's that I do (saw Hero do) Have pressure with 3 zealots chrono'd seems that like would do a little bit of dammage to you and scout completly every time.
How is this different then a 7RR anyway?
I would need the exact time these zealots hit to be sure, but I have played against zealot pressure off FFE and haven't found it to be much trouble.
More problematic for this build is actually 2-gate into expand, which I've seen some protoss do off Antiga, but that isn't nearly as secure against regular play as the FFE variant.
I really liked the point you made about the decision of the zerg to get fast third and then giving the initiative back to the toss. Those first two games were pretty sick, this is all masters replays right?
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience to be typical in the majority of Masters play, at least at the 900-1200 point level.
I have faced builds which chrono out zealots, but again, I do not find that they suffice in the majority of situations. Cannons take a good deal of time to build, and even with an early scout the toss cannot hold if their cannons cannot get up and their production went to zealots that are now dead. Furthermore, this zealot first opening is much more conservative than the status quo of FFE, and it is my hope that the trend of PvZ continues to move in that direction.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience to be typical in the majority of Masters play, at least at the 900-1200 point level.
I have faced builds which chrono out zealots, but again, I do not find that they suffice in the majority of situations. Cannons take a good deal of time to build, and even with an early scout the toss cannot hold if their cannons cannot get up and their production went to zealots that are now dead. Furthermore, this zealot first opening is much more conservative than the status quo of FFE, and it is my hope that the trend of PvZ continues to move in that direction.
I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, by all means, keep exploiting your opponents lack of scouting. That just means your further ahead than they are skill wise. But if you get to higher masters or maybe even GM, you'll find out this doesn't work. This is just roach ling all in off of 2 base.
Cannons take a while to build, sure, but a good Toss will scout this with enough time to react, especially with sentries.
On September 23 2011 09:34 Swad1000 wrote: Void first should shut this build down fine. Idra did a faster version that hit the wall at 7mns. But if this is done against a protoss that has bad timings or bad simcity it should destroy them.
Also unless your going for a 6 gate all in or stargate protoss usually chronos out a few zealots to scout the opponent.
In this game Idra cancels his hatchery, and conducts the roach / ling on a single-base, which is not what this build advocates for production reasons, and MC most likely scouted Idra's gas mining, something that can be avoided if precautions are taken.
Yeah, that game was a while ago, Tosses are smart now.
You simply HAVE to chrono out 3 zealots at a certain timing to scout the natural of the Z because probe scouts never get there before they die to speedlings. Once you see the lack of drones, 3 more cannons and you lose.
This only works against bad tosses, masters or not, if you lose to this you are bad. Not to say that I mean anything bad by that, we're all bad compared to the pros, but there's a reason Tosses do stuff like 1 stalker 2 zealot pressure when they 1 gate FE, or 3 zealot pressure when they FFE, and it's to scout all ins/fast third.
tldr - This doesn't work anymore unless the Toss is bad.
I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience to be typical in the majority of Masters play, at least at the 900-1200 point level.
I have faced builds which chrono out zealots, but again, I do not find that they suffice in the majority of situations. Cannons take a good deal of time to build, and even with an early scout the toss cannot hold if their cannons cannot get up and their production went to zealots that are now dead. Furthermore, this zealot first opening is much more conservative than the status quo of FFE, and it is my hope that the trend of PvZ continues to move in that direction.
I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, by all means, keep exploiting your opponents lack of scouting. That just means your further ahead than they are skill wise. But if you get to higher masters or maybe even GM, you'll find out this doesn't work. This is just roach ling all in off of 2 base.
Cannons take a while to build, sure, but a good Toss will scout this with enough time to react, especially with sentries.
Please give me times for when these 3 zealots will reach my natural, this build is much more conservative than what I see played as standard on ladder, and while I imagine professional players would have the ability to stop this, I do not believe they can stop it using greedy play that is often in vogue.
Nice build, I think if this is scouted a protoss could have 2-3 cannons out, 4 sentries and 2 voidrays out in time to hold it off.
This build, when played correctly, cannot be scouted before the 6:20 mark, the Protoss cannot scout with probes, and must suicide zealots into your base without prior information to determine if you're going this allin or the much more standard speedling expand.
A single voidray will have time to finish if he went star-gate, which in turn means he will not have much else, and if he does decide to pump out sentry's, it is irrelevant, because the zerg is not attempting to target down the cannons (which protoss can ff to block), but rather one of the buildings itself, it is the constant reinforcement of speedlings which allows this build to knock down the wall directly, make ff micro irrelevant, and win the game.
This is a great reason why i use the 3 pylon w/ cannon block at the ramp. It pretty much kills this build and happens earlier in the game. There are less and less ways for a protoss to take an early advantage with out a major risk involved
I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.
After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.
And that brings us more or less to now.
You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.
How many cannons would you estimate are required to hold this attack with no significant losses? Two? Three? More? Or is it map-dependant?
The reason that I ask is that for my part at least, when I FFE I make no less than two cannons unless I am very certain of what the Zerg is doing, and often make three or four if I have been entirely unable to scout.
In addition, because you are going gas-pool, this leaves the Protoss player with the option of going nexus-forge-cannon if they scout you in time, or if they get unlucky and find you on the second or third spot they scout, they can go forge-nexus-cannon which leaves them ahead of you, especially if they get creative with hatch blocking, it is not uncommon to be able to have a finished nexus or 60-70% complete nexus at the time the hatchery is begun for the Zerg. In that position, the Protoss is significantly ahead, and realistically has no reason not to make at least three cannons.
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.
After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.
And that brings us more or less to now.
You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.
I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.
I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.
If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.
How many cannons would you estimate are required to hold this attack with no significant losses? Two? Three? More? Or is it map-dependant?
The reason that I ask is that for my part at least, when I FFE I make no less than two cannons unless I am very certain of what the Zerg is doing, and often make three or four if I have been entirely unable to scout.
In addition, because you are going gas-pool, this leaves the Protoss player with the option of going nexus-forge-cannon if they scout you in time, or if they get unlucky and find you on the second or third spot they scout, they can go forge-nexus-cannon which leaves them ahead of you, especially if they get creative with hatch blocking, it is not uncommon to be able to have a finished nexus or 60-70% complete nexus at the time the hatchery is begun for the Zerg. In that position, the Protoss is significantly ahead, and realistically has no reason not to make at least three cannons.
Against a protoss who scouted this build at the earliest and defended well, 5 cannons and 2 sentry's on cross positions (Antiga) were enough to hold the allin, although I called off the allin with a 5 drone lead.
If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.
So what you're saying is. Protoss need to revist their build, that they can maybe or maybe not be even or behind with. To make sure we can hold an unscoutable all in. So that. In the case of the unscoutable all in, we are safe.
If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.
So what you're saying is. Protoss need to revist their build, that they can maybe or maybe not be even or behind with. To make sure we can hold an unscoutable all in. So that. In the case of the unscoutable all in, we are safe.
Did I get that right?
I am not a Protoss player, so I won't make recommendations which I can't, in terms of requisite knowledge, make.
This thread exposes a particular method of defeating the vast majority of FFE and Nexus-first styles. It was tested (and is currently still being tested) at a 1100-1200 Masters level, and I will continue to test it as I rise.
At the time of writing, the third replay I posted is my only loss using this build against FFE styles. For that reason, I recommend it to zergs who are interested in punishing what I consider an excessively greedy style of play on the part of the Protoss player.
Voidray at ~650 in game time after FFE. Voidrays are used because they normally come out right before any 2 base zerg all ins. Protoss has 2 voidrays by the time you break wall, and then, they should send their probes to their main and walling with 3 pylons on bottom, then 3 pylons on top to delay and let probes live. 2 voidrays is enough so you cant take out nexus.
Similarly, Protoss's have used these fast-expand styled builds to chrono probes, leaving their defense almost entirely upon 1-2 sentry's and 1-3 cannons. This leaves the Zerg in an awkward position, do they hatch first, ceding the initiative back to the Protoss and deal with the inevitable natural cannon rush, or do they go with a more conservative build (14/14) and suffer the economic consequences of competing with an economically aggressive Protoss?
For what it's worth, there is middle ground. You can build a pool before a hatchery without mining gas. your economy will be much stronger than when going 14/14 and speed is unnecessary against a FFE. if you scout a gateway you can still start mining gas and get speed in time for 4-gate or usual stuff.
This kind of all-in is a good build to have though, because there are some maps (nerazim crypt, abysmal caverns close spawns) that toss like to FFE on but also have incredibly short rush distances so zerg may want to 14/14 for safety. so this is another option after opening gas first.
On September 23 2011 12:18 Contractor wrote: Voidray at ~650 in game time after FFE. Voidrays are used because they normally come out right before any 2 base zerg all ins. Protoss has 2 voidrays by the time you break wall, and then, they should send their probes to their main and walling with 3 pylons on bottom, then 3 pylons on top to delay and let probes live. 2 voidrays is enough so you cant take out nexus.
What exactly are you doing to get your Voidray out at 6:50? I don't see that timing as standard, normally I see them out by the 7:10-7:25 mark, at which you are already assaulting their base and a single voidray is not going to suffice.
The Zerg has 1.5 bases of production (10 larva a cycle) when this hits, he can continue to send 26-28 zerglings a minute to your base, so long as the original roach / ling composition pokes a hole in your wall (by targeting down the forge and fighting cannons), the speedlings can swarm in to victory.
Perhaps voidray timing can be altered to come out earlier, I don't know, but in my experience current star-gate openers are insufficient to deal with this allin.
For what it's worth, there is middle ground. You can build a pool before a hatchery without mining gas. your economy will be much stronger than when going 14/14 and speed is unnecessary against a FFE. if you scout a gateway you can still start mining gas and get speed in time for 4-gate or usual stuff.
This kind of all-in is a good build to have though, because there are some maps (nerazim crypt, abysmal caverns close spawns) that toss like to FFE on but also have incredibly short rush distances so zerg may want to 14/14 for safety. so this is another option after opening gas first.
This is certainly viable, but I don't see the need to take that route if a win is currently available against greedy FFE styles.
I was thinking of just going for phenoix instead of void rays out of my initial stargate and just harassing with that I think that reading this I'll use them to scout for this save they're energy and watch for allins like this. That would work well chronoing the phenoix and building cannons I think.
Well, I just watched a replay from a game I played before reading this thread. By 6 minutes I have two zealots scouting across the map clearing watch towers and heading to the zerg base to see what's happening.
I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build.
On September 23 2011 12:35 JonnyLaw wrote: Well, I just watched a replay from a game I played before reading this thread. By 6 minutes I have two zealots scouting across the map clearing watch towers and heading to the zerg base to see what's happening.
I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build.
Just saying.
Your zealots will not reach the zerg's base before his roaches pop (which is sometime between 6:15-6:25). On cross-positions, yes, I believe the potential for a quick zealot scout is viable, but you will lose both zealots and it is likely to be close even in the event of a scout. Your forge will go down, and unless you prevent the zerg from simply continuing on into your base, you will lose the game.
On September 23 2011 12:35 JonnyLaw wrote: Well, I just watched a replay from a game I played before reading this thread. By 6 minutes I have two zealots scouting across the map clearing watch towers and heading to the zerg base to see what's happening.
I poke their base with them every time while hugging walls to force ling production and kill zerglings cost effectively. This is not an uncommon strategy. That is more than enough time to laugh at this build.
Just saying.
Your zealots will not reach the zerg's base before his roaches pop (which is sometime between 6:15-6:25). On cross-positions, yes, I believe the potential for a quick zealot scout is viable, but you will lose both zealots and it is likely to be close even in the event of a scout. Your forge will go down, and unless you prevent the zerg from simply continuing on into your base, you will lose the game.
This is after a forge expand. Sometimes you lose the zealots, other times it's not needed. If you hug walls and micro zealots will more than pay for themselves in zergling kills.
10 pylon/14 forge/ 17 nexus/pylon/gate/cannon after scouting a 14 pool knowing the cannon does not need to go down first.
With the roaches being scouted. I can produce more cannons and chrono stalkers.
Your choice of replays is bad. The typhon peaks guy makes 3 mistakes and dies because of them. Shattered temple close position requires you to screw up for the protoss to survive and that game on antiga shipyard is just bad. His simcity is awful while you over-commit and lose units needlessly. You also didn't include a replay with the most common follow-up to a FFE: voidray.
I'm a 1250 masters toss on eu and i want to say that this is easily counterable by chronoing out a sentry,then a stalker and another stalker while getting cannons at back.when forge fast expanding i take a second scouting probe and hide it around the map.i try to scout a fast third,if i dont see a fast third with my second probe i start the chronoing and adding a 3rd cannon.the key to a FFE is the scouting around the 6th-7th mark and every half decent protoss player knows howto scout this and react correspondingly.of course there is a way to see whether u pulled those drones off gas.
This is purely anecdotal but I played against a build very much like this today, albeit in diamond: a 2 hatch roach-ling attack hitting at about 7:30, on Shakuras. I scouted no 3rd base with a probe and made 3 cannons and an immortal (I was going 2 gate robo for fast warp prism). Shut it down completely.
I think this is stronger on some maps than others, but it's no more impossible to scout and defend than any other 2-base all-in; Protoss has to slip a probe or zealot past the speedlings and check for 3rd bases, drone counts, early units, gas being mined, etc. If this all-in gets scouted it fails like any other all-in.
On September 23 2011 13:29 bGr.MetHiX wrote: I'm a 1250 masters toss on eu and i want to say that this is easily counterable by chronoing out a sentry,then a stalker and another stalker while getting cannons at back.when forge fast expanding i take a second scouting probe and hide it around the map.i try to scout a fast third,if i dont see a fast third with my second probe i start the chronoing and adding a 3rd cannon.the key to a FFE is the scouting around the 6th-7th mark and every half decent protoss player knows howto scout this and react correspondingly.of course there is a way to see whether u pulled those drones off gas.
This build isn't vs a 1gate expand, it's a build to counter the FFE, which is a lot more greedy, and the basis of his argument: a risky, but powerful early game push can and should be used to punish greedy players.
This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.
After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.
And that brings us more or less to now.
You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.
I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.
I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.
If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.
edit: I withdraw my criticisms as I had forgotten LosirA's method was a means to punish 3-gate sentry expand (and why protoss are usually opting for FFE nowadays). I still agree with the solutions most of the protoss players have stated in this thread, but my criticisms are simply not germane to the strategy, nor do I have any replays or VODs to support my view. I'll leave the OP spoilered here but it's not strictly relevant:
Whatever you are proposing five months later is either the same or less efficient version of the build he was doing (which has the same number of units).
You say it's a necessary step backwards, but isn't it just possible that the players you are matched against aren't good enough to know the counters? I mean, 6 pool works consistently well against mid and high level master players (and even GM protoss on occasion), and this is a very easily counterable cheese.
I don't think it's anything but a reproduction of a strategy that has been well known for four months, and you've just put your name on it and provided some unconvincing replays.
The reason so many protoss players (among other posters) have presented methods to stop this is because they have had five months to think about it. I feel like you're not only taking undue credit for a strategy you didn't originate, but also misrepresenting its ability to punish FFE. You're right in that it probably consistently works, but the solutions are already pretty well established.
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote: This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.
To address some of the other suggestions :
Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.
Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.
I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.
Well, in code A right now sage vs check you can see check doing a build with a similar timing. Hit at 730 and gets completely demolished by simcity and a void ray.
On September 23 2011 11:49 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think this is a well-written guide, but can you explain to me what differentiates your build from the roach-ling aggression vs FFE that has been going on for months? LosirA v Alicia in GSL May (I think) popularized this 8 roach speedling aggression and there have been a few threads on it already.
After reading through I don't understand what's different? It also sounds like you're taking a step backwards in time in the matchup. I feel like the order is more something like this:
Zerg opens hatch first in most matches, leaving 3-gate expand behind economically.
Protoss starts to FFE and is able to keep up economically with zerg.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to just do a 2-base roach-ling timing.
Protoss figures out how to stop said roach-ling timings.
Zerg decides the best way to deal with FFE is to take a fast third where applicable.
Protoss starts doing +1 zealot timings earlier to punish fast thirds, as well as warp prism harass.
And that brings us more or less to now.
You seem to think (judging by your OP) that the roach-ling timing is the next logical step, but that would just create a loop.
I'm not sure when LosirA's roach / ling timing hit, but the majority of roach / lings I've seen tend to come later, with 20+ drones and 2 full bases of production, or too early (such as the Idra match posted earlier in this thread), which are forced, out of necessity, to be waged on 1-base.
I don't think it matters, however, whether revisiting roach / ling allins is perceived as backwards, only whether it works. Eco heavy FFE +1 Protoss builds lose to this aggression because it hits early enough and with enough force that it can crash through the wall and end the game. Star-gate styles do not protect against this aggression, and the cost of probe production as well as a quick +1 mean the protoss has precious little with which to defend.
If indeed this is a step backwards, it is a necessary step, Protoss +1 builds are meant to deal with a fast third, but if the zerg has the capacity to forgo the fast third and simply win with roach / ling, the Protoss must revisit their FFE and make them more resistant (ie. through more conservative play) or explore other build options.
Whatever you are proposing five months later is either the same or less efficient version of the build he was doing (which has the same number of units).
You say it's a necessary step backwards, but isn't it just possible that the players you are matched against aren't good enough to know the counters? I mean, 6 pool works consistently well against mid and high level master players (and even GM protoss on occasion), and this is a very easily counterable cheese.
I don't think it's anything but a reproduction of a strategy that has been well known for four months, and you've just put your name on it and provided some unconvincing replays.
The reason so many protoss players (among other posters) have presented methods to stop this is because they have had five months to think about it. I feel like you're not only taking undue credit for a strategy you didn't originate, but also misrepresenting its ability to punish FFE. You're right in that it probably consistently works, but the solutions are already pretty well established.
Edited Edit : I saw Michael's edit, and my comments are no longer relevant. Losira's build is different, hits at a different time, and has a fundamentally different purpose.
To address your 6-pool comparison.
6-pools are easily scouted by the Protoss, and when scouted, there are immediate steps which may be taken to prevent its success. Furthermore, the move is made blindly by the Zerg, he cannot know what strategy the Protoss will take and he has no time to scout.
This decision to take this allin, by contrast, is decided only after determining that the Protoss is engaging in a risky, econ-heavy build, is strong even against conservative Protoss builds, and the only response which seems reasonably likely to hold is significantly more conservative than contemporary FFE on ladder.
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote: This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.
To address some of the other suggestions :
Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.
Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.
I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.
I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.
I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.
Thanks for sharing
edit: Also, for what it's worth, this is almost exactly the build that Tang (Top Master/GM on NA Ladder) uses almost exclusively in 1v1. The only difference is that he is usually able to deny the scout quicker, and mines 300 gas for a 12 roach / mass speedling all-in. This is usually the only build he ever does vs P and T.
So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.
And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.
Rofl.
Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.
Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.
Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?
Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".
Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote: This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.
To address some of the other suggestions :
Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.
Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.
I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.
I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.
I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.
Thanks for sharing
I feel that the 2-zealot opener can deal with this build, that is, it certainly isn't a build-order loss, however the 2-zealot opener is more conservative than greedier FFE, and pushing Protoss towards more conservative play is a good I hadn't dared hope to achieve with this build. Even then, however, the outcome is very much in doubt, and the potential to do large amounts of damage and punish greed often leaves the Zerg in an equal or better position than his opponent, even if the actual assault does not end the game.
That being said, I agree, I prefer standard play, but standard play includes punishing greedy builds when present, and I don't feel most FFE pass muster when it comes to defending this allin.
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote: So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.
And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.
Rofl.
Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.
Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.
Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?
Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".
Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.
No troll.
Edit : Tang is topnotch.
jk
I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.
It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.
I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.
On September 23 2011 15:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:
On September 23 2011 14:50 ThomasHobbes wrote:
On September 23 2011 14:16 LtLolburger wrote: This kind of stuff is why i always chrono out 3 zealots as soon as my gate finishes, while sending a probe to look for a third slightly behind them. Usually any 1 base roach ling plays happen to meet my zealots in the middle of the map or near their base, and i just plant down 3-4 additional cannons while teching for blink or dts quickly to punish their late tech and evo chamber. Personally i believe any early zerg agression is just a waste of larvae if the protoss is smart.
This is not a 1-base roach ling allin, and while you can throw down additional cannons, the zerg can crash through these defenses and take out either you natural or move on into your main.
To address some of the other suggestions :
Void-rays - Voids come out around 7:10+, this is not enough on its own, the wall will be broken and additional zerglings will flood in. Furthermore, it's at this point that the zerg starts to have extra minerals at his base, and additional queens are quite easy to make to hold any void-ray aggression, even if the Protoss somehow holds the initial assault.
Zealots - In the game JonnyLaw and I played, the 2 chrono'd zealots were 3/4 the way to the Zerg's base when they are caught by the Roach / Ling force and destroyed, Jonny did hold the attack, although he suffered enough damage that he eventually lost the game.
I feel, based on his defense, that this 2+ zealot build could very well hold, although I'm confident that I could have broken his wall much more efficiently than I did. Therefore, while it is a viable defense to this allin, it is still capable of being broken and requires the Protoss to adopt a much more conservative build from the get-go.
I definitely think I was being overly critical before, and I like this all-in a lot. Like any cheesey play, I think it's definitely counterable with good scouting, but I feel like the decision-making required to beat this cheese exceeds the level of skill required to execute the build.
I don't think this guy (or myself) played particularly well, but as JohnnyLaw also said, I feel like it's a strong build and a legitimate standard opener ---> cheese.
Thanks for sharing
I feel that the 2-zealot opener can deal with this build, that is, it certainly isn't a build-order loss, however the 2-zealot opener is more conservative than greedier FFE, and pushing Protoss towards more conservative play is a good I hadn't dared hope to achieve with this build. Even then, however, the outcome is very much in doubt, and the potential to do large amounts of damage and punish greed often leaves the Zerg in an equal or better position than his opponent, even if the actual assault does not end the game.
That being said, I agree, I prefer standard play, but standard play includes punishing greedy builds when present, and I don't feel most FFE pass muster when it comes to defending this allin.
I think the key is just sending out a second probe to get general scouting information. When your initial probe is chased out, have a second ready to waltz in and try get a glimpse at the tech path. It's faster than an observer and costs less to reveal potentially critical information.
That second probe can reveal at the very least, workers returned to gas before the second queen has been built. This is a telltale sign of an impending all-in, as it delays the 2nd queen significantly (or indefinitely).
I'll probably use this on ladder whenever I don't feel like playing protoss.
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote: So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.
And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.
Rofl.
Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.
Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.
Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?
Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".
Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.
No troll.
Edit : Tang is topnotch.
jk
I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.
It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.
I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.
Well, realistically speaking. Zergs are expanding with 2-6 zerglings... That's pretty greedy. And there isn't a ton protoss can do. Especially things that are "unscoutable".
On September 23 2011 15:29 Vlare wrote: So it isn't bad enough every T 111's us. Now we are going to have every zerg doing this retarded shit.
And we can't scout either until it's Too late half the time.
Rofl.
Well. I still think early zealots will give protoss ample time to hold. But most people are so greedy I have no doubt you're having so much success with it.
Although I have to say, minimal respect to cheesers of any race. Nice build for a boX though.
Question to OP: How did you come up with this build exactly?
Because all I can think of is "How can I not play a macro game".
Im asking because, maybe your logic path/ intuition can lead me to create a build of my own to counter "greedy" play by other races.
No troll.
Edit : Tang is topnotch.
jk
I watched replays of myself 14/14 speedling expanding against FFE, and found that, even droning hard, the Protoss was still often ahead. I began to follow what better players suggested and take a fast third, but I found Protoss were fine-tuning their builds to deal with it.
It seemed absurd to me that a Protoss could expand early, have no ability to scout, and produce minimal units, but still hold against early zerg aggression. I looked up roach / ling allins, but didn't like the 24-3x harvester requirements that both of them called for.
I started winging roach-ling allins and settled on 18 as the earliest a significant (8) roach force could rally across the map with speedling support. Furthermore, by hitting so early, DTs and Star-Gate FFE openers did not have the time to get up. Given that 7-roach rushes and the like have poor follow-up and are easily scouted, I determined that a second base was necessary in order to provide future production, provide an option out if the allin failed, and fool the Protoss into expecting a traditional 14/14 speedling expand.
Well, realistically speaking. Zergs are expanding with 2-6 zerglings... That's pretty greedy. And there isn't a ton protoss can do. Especially things that are "unscoutable".
What should I do!
Other than 15nexus and winout.
A 14/14 speedling build is rather conservative, so I disagree, but yes, a hatch-first zerg is often punished for expanding when he has no offensive units in play. Excessive greed by any race can and will be punished, that is what this all-in offers.
As a zerg player I could see this working consistently on maps where the FFE wall is a bit more exposed, like Shattered, TDA, Metal, Xel' Naga, etc. On maps like Shakuras tho.... with proper scouting it should be an easy hold IMO: span cannons chrono sentires.
Either way, good build to keep Protoss honest ;D. Thx
Oh man I love punishing these greedy Toss. Tried the build out and won 4 games straight vs FFE. My ZvT and ZvZ are like 80% and my ZvP was ~35%, this should help me climb up a bit, thanks! It's also pretty funny when the toss goes FFE into 2 gate zealots.. lol..
defintely goin to try this out, cheers for figuring out the timings.
Looks to me as if this is a 2 base adaption of wzp`s build, same principle behind it. Make a set number of roaches at time X, to bust the wall, and follow up with pure speedling to overwhelm the P. Since wzp`s build prooved so effective before warpgate changes, i can see this new build of 2 bases working quite well in this metagame.
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
On September 23 2011 13:29 bGr.MetHiX wrote: I'm a 1250 masters toss on eu and i want to say that this is easily counterable by chronoing out a sentry,then a stalker and another stalker while getting cannons at back.when forge fast expanding i take a second scouting probe and hide it around the map.i try to scout a fast third,if i dont see a fast third with my second probe i start the chronoing and adding a 3rd cannon.the key to a FFE is the scouting around the 6th-7th mark and every half decent protoss player knows howto scout this and react correspondingly.of course there is a way to see whether u pulled those drones off gas.
This build isn't vs a 1gate expand, it's a build to counter the FFE, which is a lot more greedy, and the basis of his argument: a risky, but powerful early game push can and should be used to punish greedy players.
im sorry,but why do u even participate in this conversation,you obviously have no idea beyond the platinum league,am i right?
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
This is nothing new at all. You're better off just doing the standard roach/ ling aggression that cuts drones at 30. It hits a tad later but is much less all in, as you can either spam drones or speedlings behind it depending on how it goes. If you leave drones in gas after the roaches, get a lair and plus one, then get third. If not, drone harder and take earlier third. Plugging your name on an extremely common timing is stupid.
On September 24 2011 04:05 DoctorFunk wrote: This is nothing new at all. You're better off just doing the standard roach/ ling aggression that cuts drones at 30. It hits a tad later but is much less all in, as you can either spam drones or speedlings behind it depending on how it goes. If you leave drones in gas after the roaches, get a lair and plus one, then get third. If not, drone harder and take earlier third. Plugging your name on an extremely common timing is stupid.
You contradict yourself, if the 30 drone roach / ling allin is standard (as you assert) then I am not advocating a common timing but rather an altered and much earlier version of it.
As for the frequency of use, perhaps you have had a different experience, but I have not seen the 18 drone variant I am advocating used in much of anything. As for the efficacy, do a 30 roach / ling if you wish, but that isn't the point of this thread, which is to attack an economically aggressive Protoss before he has the ability to do much of anything. In that respect, waiting is counter-productive to the goal, which is hitting the Protoss hard, early, and with enough damage to cripple him into the late-game.
In any case, I feel the track record speaks for itself. Up through high masters this build is enormously effective against Protoss FFE, and in my opinion remains strong on all skill levels. Please feel free to check my match history on battlenet for yourself (bogie.359), this build does not lose against the vast majority of Protoss FFE.
I'm not doubting it's effectiveness, I use this timing also, but I have just come to prefer the ~28 drone version. I guess your variant comes somewhere between the 3 roach version and the 28 drone version. Less all-in than 3 roach(also much much harder to scout) but More than the 28 drone version. I guess I just prefer the more economic version.
This build definetly works at times, altho after trying it out, as people have said, i feel it is map dependant and the protoss needs to be really really greedy.
With a small natural choke like shakuras or nerazim and good sim city, 2 cannons and more than 1 sentry become a dealbreaker. And to be honest, neither 2 cannons, nor a couple of early sentries are unusual.
It does however just instant stomp them if the dude skipped sentries and went quick Stargate.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
that's actually standard play. Nowadays, you are supposed to do it if you can't have a second probe in the zerg's base. You will absolutely know if the zerg is doing something weird.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
It isn't that I don't think your zealot can't scout the presence or absence of a third, but rather what time it comes and whether that is significant to the build. I see LiquidHero reaching Idra's 3rd by the 6:30 mark, at which point the roaches should be hatched / hatching and moving across the map.
When are you sending this zealot out? When does he reach the opponents base? I've seen marked decrease of FFE in my ZvP matchups, so I can't experiment much against zealot openers.
On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
It isn't that I don't think your zealot can't scout the presence or absence of a third, but rather what time it comes and whether that is significant to the build. I see LiquidHero reaching Idra's 3rd by the 6:30 mark, at which point the roaches should be hatched / hatching and moving across the map.
When are you sending this zealot out? When does he reach the opponents base? I've seen marked decrease of FFE in my ZvP matchups, so I can't experiment much against zealot openers.
the zealot comes out at the 6 min mark (right after you gateway in a ffe, then chronoed). He scouts you at 6:30 roughly. Yes your roaches are built. Yes, they are walking towards the protoss. but he will see them for sure. From there, he simply proceeds to add lots of cannons, and delay while they finish
I'm not sure why you are claiming this makes ffe impossible... With proper scouting like any higher level masters or GM player will do, such as a zealot stalker poke or a few zealot poke will scout this very very easily if you deny the scouting worker anyway. Don't make sensationalist threads please. It is kind of silly to make claims that you cannot support.
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I tried it and it worked. Actually, I botched it and it still worked. I'm not going to get into the debate about whether this is any good/easily scouted etc. You're all way better than me. However I agree with the OP that there is a metagame trend right now that this exploits: protoss expects a fast third by zerg after a scouted FFE and therefore defaults to greedy play. I don't see a whole ton of pro-level protosses sending three zealots across the map after the FFE. Seems like they're more likely to grab sentries and start banking energy. Or get a stalker out to deny overlord scouting.
There's no such thing as a perfect strategy, or one that will always win, or be immune to all metagame shifts. Just because there are ways to beat a particular strategy doesn't mean that every player who loses to it is "bad." That's why we play the games instead of just revealing our strategies and quitting. This is not a rock/paper/scissors game.
On some maps fast third for zerg is difficult/weak. Right now the risk/reward on this strat looks pretty good to me.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
This this this and more this. I'm pretty sure the majority of Protoss with half a brain are immediately chronoing out 1-2 zealots, and sending those to scout, as well as hiding 1-2 probes around the map to check for third bases as well as spread harass pylons later (if not detected). If a protoss only makes extra cannons if they see extra roaches, then they're pretty awful. As RSVP has pointed out, there are numerous tells as to whether or not something is up, (gas mined, low drone count, no fast 3rd, etc.), and an intelligent protoss will add the extra cannon(s), and survive an all in, or be a few minerals behind in econ.
Not saying this build is "bad" per se, but you're banking on protoss playing poorly, and that's kind of a weak way to play. Nothing wrong with a new cheese timing, but your really animated defense of this build just puzzles me... its a nice all in, but its nothing unstoppable, or anything.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
This this this and more this. I'm pretty sure the majority of Protoss with half a brain are immediately chronoing out 1-2 zealots, and sending those to scout, as well as hiding 1-2 probes around the map to check for third bases as well as spread harass pylons later (if not detected). If a protoss only makes extra cannons if they see extra roaches, then they're pretty awful. As RSVP has pointed out, there are numerous tells as to whether or not something is up, (gas mined, low drone count, no fast 3rd, etc.), and an intelligent protoss will add the extra cannon(s), and survive an all in, or be a few minerals behind in econ.
Not saying this build is "bad" per se, but you're banking on protoss playing poorly, and that's kind of a weak way to play. Nothing wrong with a new cheese timing, but your really animated defense of this build just puzzles me... its a nice all in, but its nothing unstoppable, or anything.
This build accounts for probe scouting, so neither gas mined nor drone count can be counted on as tells. The absence of a fast third is a tell, but a Protoss can't be sure of that until past the 6:30 minute mark.
If a Protoss is careful, sends out the zealot, and catches the roaches on their way, he can add cannons and hold with good play. But this is not a sure thing. I've played against 4 cannons and have still won, the roach / sling composition does not melt away as soon as the Protoss scouts.
That being said, I now advocate pumping out a few extra lings before getting your overlord at 40 supply. These lings can be used to kill / drive off the zealot before he gets a scout of the roaches. An intelligent player using a zealot / probe scout will still be a problem, but zealot scouting is by no means a sure thing.
I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
On October 12 2011 13:02 ThomasHobbes wrote: I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
As always, comments are welcome.
I watched the rep, the protoss had a pretty slow reaction in putting up cannons after seeing your roach. He put up cannon 2 + another pylon, waited a few seconds, put another cannon, waited a few more seconds, and then put down a 4th cannon. When your attack hit none of the additional cannons had even finished. If he had cancelled probes + his 2 natural gases as soon as he saw the roach and immediately put down 3 more cannons, your attack would have been easily repulsed.
If anything, the replay just goes to show that your build is indeed scoutable. And it doesn't even take 2 zealots to scout that, you only made 4 lings and a 1 zealot scout would have been able to detect something fishy (and earlier too).
I really don't see what's so special about this, it looks like a standard 2 base roach/ling all-in. Ok, maybe it hits 30 seconds earlier than what nestea or losira did but what makes their build "standard?" At least for me, I wouldn't do anything different to stop this version than stopping a version that hits 30 seconds later.
EDIT: I'm sure your build is great and wins you lots of games, I know I still lose to builds like this on occasion. I just don't like your attitude when you call this build "unscoutable" or "100% win rate."
On October 12 2011 13:02 ThomasHobbes wrote: I have updated the replays in the OP and have expanded the part on denying scouts. The first replay address the issue of the double-zealot scout that posters brought up throughout the thread.
Even when the zealots scout the roaches, and cannons (up to 4) are thrown down to compensate, the allin hits early enough and powerfully enough that the Protoss's response is overwhelmed.
As always, comments are welcome.
I watched the rep, the protoss had a pretty slow reaction in putting up cannons after seeing your roach. He put up cannon 2 + another pylon, waited a few seconds, put another cannon, waited a few more seconds, and then put down a 4th cannon. When your attack hit none of the additional cannons had even finished. If he had cancelled probes + his 2 natural gases as soon as he saw the roach and immediately put down 3 more cannons, your attack would have been easily repulsed.
If anything, the replay just goes to show that your build is indeed scoutable. And it doesn't even take 2 zealots to scout that, you only made 4 lings and a 1 zealot scout would have been able to detect something fishy (and earlier too).
I really don't see what's so special about this, it looks like a standard 2 base roach/ling all-in.
I will upload replays of single-zealot scouts, suffice to say, they do not get near the roaches or manage to enter the base before they are surrounded by speedlings and killed.
4-lings are all the zerg has initially, but if the zerg makes 2-3 extra pairs between 38-40/41 supply, they will have 6-10 lings out to deal with the zealot before he manages to complete his scout. If he attempts to scout for a third, he will not complete the scout before your attack commences.
This all-in cuts significantly before conventional roach / ling allins, and its purpose is not to allow the zerg to take a third or to crush the Protoss fast expand, but rather to end the game as soon as the Protoss is scouted as FFE'ing.
As for the double-zealot, they can be isolated and killed by lings (10) if played correctly (I will upload this replay), and even in the first replay I believe I did a poor job of stopping his double-zealots, they should never have seen the roaches. Even then, however, it is unlikely to be stopped unless the map is Shakuras or cross-positions Antiga, where the distances are far enough that the cannons will finish.
I will also test whether this build can't be performed earlier than the 5:00 roach warren it originally calls for. If 6 roaches would suffice, a few dozen seconds might be cut off the build.
Edit: I understand your criticisms, and yes, it is quite extreme to say that this build has a near 100% win rate, I only say that because, in my experience, it is true.
On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote: 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
How does this zealot/probe scout look like? I usually just cb out a zealot after laying down my cc (or sometimes 2) and scout with them. I also usually keep a 2nd probe out of my base somewhere hidden and send it around 5:30 to check drone count in his nat and try to sneak into the main. Are you somehow pushing with the probe+zealot together (which can beat 4 lings together)? Could you explain your zealot+probe scouting in more detail? This would help me a lot, thanks.
On the matter of the 5-6 zealot timing. You say you hit at 7 to 7:30, at what point do you actually move out of your base. The 5-6 zealot +1 timing off a FFE arrives at the zerg base at a bit before 7. Assuming the protoss scouts the lack of fast third base and then encounters roaches wouldn't you have enough time to delay the push with your 5-6 zealots by engaging the roaches as they come across the map and hence be able to get sufficient cannons up in time (and also probably 2 sentries if you take a faster 2nd gas with your zealot timing).
On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote: 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
How does this zealot/probe scout look like? I usually just cb out a zealot after laying down my cc (or sometimes 2) and scout with them. I also usually keep a 2nd probe out of my base somewhere hidden and send it around 5:30 to check drone count in his nat and try to sneak into the main. Are you somehow pushing with the probe+zealot together (which can beat 4 lings together)? Could you explain your zealot+probe scouting in more detail? This would help me a lot, thanks.
It depends, the majority of the time the zealot by itself can handle 4 lings, especially since it's usually like 2 lings outside your nat and 2 at the watchtowers. I believe that with perfect micro from both sides, 4 lings > 1 zealot, but in the aforementioned scenario you'll get a few early hits and then it'll be easy for the zealot to win. The zealot then goes to clear the watchtower, and once that's cleared and lings are running away from the zealot the probe can go and scout as well. Usually my zealot heads towards the zerg main while the probe checks to see if there's a 3rd. So in other words I try to hide the probe so the zerg doesn't know I'm also scouting with it. There are 2 exceptions though:
If there's only 1 ling outside my nat, or maybe 2 slow lings, I'll attack with both probe + zealot because a ling dies in 2 zealot + 1 probe shot so usually you can kill a ling rather than getting 2 zealot hits and the zerg realizing it and pulling it back to save it. Or if all 4 lings are outside my nat, you'll have to attack with both probe + zealot in order to win. Then proceed as above (send another probe if your first dies).
If there's more than 4 lings I'll chrono out another zealot, if there's way more than that then I'm mass cannoning up lol
On October 12 2011 17:17 darkscream wrote: Any protoss who spends timing chrono'ing zealots out to scout this just gave the zerg what they wanted - for you not to be chrono'ing probes.
If the zerg is scouted and can see cannons going up, you can turn on a dime and play a standard game.
Please don't post stuff like this that is so incredibly wrong. If it costs 50 energy to chrono a zealot and only 25 for probes I would still chrono out that zealot in a heartbeat.
On October 12 2011 17:04 Tazerenix wrote: On the matter of the 5-6 zealot timing. You say you hit at 7 to 7:30, at what point do you actually move out of your base. The 5-6 zealot +1 timing off a FFE arrives at the zerg base at a bit before 7. Assuming the protoss scouts the lack of fast third base and then encounters roaches wouldn't you have enough time to delay the push with your 5-6 zealots by engaging the roaches as they come across the map and hence be able to get sufficient cannons up in time (and also probably 2 sentries if you take a faster 2nd gas with your zealot timing).
Thoughts?
Perhaps I just haven't had experience facing pure 5-6 zealot timings, but the one's I've seen meet the roach / ling force a little more than midway towards the Protoss base, are quite easily surrounded by lings, and the cost of getting these zealots out leaves the Protoss unprepared to defend once he loses them, which the roach / speedling force should have no problem doing.
If you'd like to find me on ladder (bogie.359) we can test this out and see exactly when the earliest 5-6 zealot build can hit and how much the Protoss can prepare for the coming allin based on this information.
On October 12 2011 17:17 darkscream wrote: Any protoss who spends timing chrono'ing zealots out to scout this just gave the zerg what they wanted - for you not to be chrono'ing probes.
If the zerg is scouted and can see cannons going up, you can turn on a dime and play a standard game.
I agree with Anihc here, I do not believe the chrono'd zealot (or 2-zealots) is a waste, it gives essential scouting information in standard play, and with 2-zealots has a decent chance of scouting this allin as it is moving out.
As for playing standard, the Protoss is only likely to scout you as you are moving out to attack his base, your 4 lings will keep his probes away before then. That means that your roaches, speedlings, and overlords are already in production or completed, which in turn means that the heavy resource / time investment has already taken place, and playing standard at this point is suboptimal and not advised.
Even if he responds correctly and puts up 4-5 extra cannons, there is still a very good chance that you will break his wall and move into his base, I would suggest going forward with the actual attack regardless of his scout, because if you merely sit on your army investment you will be significantly behind, and the odds of a successful allin remain high against every FFE build, regardless of scouting ability.
On October 12 2011 17:45 Warrice wrote: This is different than the normal roach ling all in?? this is the only roach ling all in ive ever done, or very similar to it.
To be succinct, yes.
In detail, most roach-ling allins come at a later point and cut drones between 24 and 30+. I have heard it said, for instance, that 24 drones spread evenly between two bases will keep up a constant two-base roach / ling force with constant 2-hatch (with queen) sling reinforcements.
The intent of these all-ins vary, but they're mostly targeted towards a wide range of builds, including gate-first, which requires that they hit later in order to allow the Protoss's natural Nexus time to go down (and thus create a situation where the Protoss is especially vulnerable to attack).
This all-in specifically targets Forge-Fast-Expands. I do not recommend it versus any other match-up, and while it can be effective against gate-first builds, I would advise that you simply copy a professionals later roach-ling play (with the option of a fast 3rd) rather than trying to force this build into a situation it isn't designed to handle.
As for frequency of use, I developed this build independently and wrote the guide myself, the guide being all I ask credit for. If you have used this build before, great, I wish you the best of luck in future.
EPT
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