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Hello my name is Rob I'm a mid level masters toss player. This thread is to discuss the current trend in PvZ, the infamous roach ling build, and if possible try to find a new way to safely expand against zerg. I'm sure Most of you know it from watching GSL and other tourneys but here are the basics. I'm sorry if this explanation seems vague but there is no one build order.
step one: get an expansion
step two: get your desired number of drones, this can be high or low eco depending on how all in you want your attack to be(note you must stay on hatch tech)
step three: attack the toss shortly after he expands before the eco kicks in and his gateway ball is still primarily sentry (you can stream units or drone depends on the game)
step four: there is no step four you just won
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl3/vod/65338
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65293
As these reps show the RL build crushes the two most common protoss expand builds relatively effortlessly
The real strength of this build is just the threat of it at any moment, you just don't know if zerg is massing for a massive attack or a minor attack and expanding. Hell zerg can even feign aggression then rush burrow roach
Effects of this build on toss:
As most of you also know the favored way for a toss to take his natural has been 3 gate sentry expand. Well tough luck that build cannot hold this if it is executed properly unless you blind hard counter by making a few hundred cannons. Another problem i have with this build is my inability to scout it before it's on top of me. Hallucinate finishes just in time to tell you that you are in fact going to die in 15 seconds.
So how does toss expand now with out playing a guessing game? Hey i know lets do a void ray expand roaches and lings sure can't shoot up. Well we all know how that turns out, the roaches and lings destroy your entire natural while your void rays sit above tickling them.
The one obvious hard counter is DT rushing, but ill come back to my original point that you cannot scout roach ling thus you must blind dt expand. While that may work out ok on the ladder i feel that the pvz match up is starting to force both sides to just play guessing games. If this will requiring patching or just further understanding of the game is not for us to say
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65293 Nestea knows that inca cannot stop Roach ling and assumes he will go DT. Nestea assumes correctly and blind counter wins. (no hate towards nestea i would give him both my kidneys)
I would love to see some high level players figure out some kind of PvZ robo expand build that actually works but i have yet to dabble. Post some reps ploz gogo immortal use!
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I go voidray expo, or get a stargate right after i expo and cut sentries a little (and still only on maps you cannot forge fe on). 3gate used to be the safe build with average economy, and now it's just a build with average economy.
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you pretty much have to blindly go at least 2 cannons and if he builds dones you will have to play from even more behind than you used to.
dt build doesn't hard counter this by the way. just a few minerals for a safety evo chamber won't hurt his attack at all and if he sees dts he will just go back build spores and a milllion drones because you can't attack him with the few units you have and play from there.
defend all game and build colossi ht ball (you will lose to infestor bling without ht) and hope he messes up. or be a million times better and outmicro him with blink. not sure what else works right now.
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My problem with stargate expand is that roach ling STILL kills it. On forge FE maps ok that's different but what about the nestea spine crawler rush, not seeing it to much yet but i see it becoming a standard play vs Forge FE
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On May 19 2011 04:19 Arcanefrost wrote:
I go voidray expo, or get a stargate right after i expo and cut sentries a little (and still only on maps you cannot forge fe on). 3gate used to be the safe build with average economy, and now it's just a build with average economy.
This is a very strong move. I am only mid/high diamond, but I encountered similar shenanigans the other night. It looked like a 3 gate expand and he moved out and killed all my forward lings at the expo timing. When I attacked shortly after I was met with no expo, many zealots, a few sentries and 2 voids (a third joining shortly after). I was pretty surprised and I was unable to hold it off.
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spine crawler rush only works on maps you don't usually forge fe on. if the spines can only shoot the wall and aren't close to the nat it's not all that good.
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It's just something you have to deal with and get better at. If you look at zerg when we expand we play the guessing game ALL THE TIME.
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On May 19 2011 04:24 gheyrobot wrote:
My problem with stargate expand is that roach ling STILL kills it. On forge FE maps ok that's different but what about the nestea spine crawler rush, not seeing it to much yet but i see it becoming a standard play vs Forge FE
You can forge fe safely on more maps than you may think although there are still some maps you have to open one base.
The spinecrawler rush is just a gimmick, probe scout before ling speed finishes you'll see a lair building and 1 gas with no guys mining gas. Add a second gateway and chronoboost a few stalkers and kill the spinecrawlers before they morph in and kill the overlords, stay near your cannon to defend your stalkers against speedlings.
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Clearly you did not watch the replays, The timings on roach ling crush void ray builds with much ease
And yes Forge FE is still very strong PvZ spine crawler rushing comes down to the zerg preventing scouting.
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Nothing stops you from getting 3-4 gates and expanding gently with a forge and decent sim-city. ?_?
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what stops you from building all drones then. ?_?
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Forcefields + cannons - win.
User was warned for this post
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On May 19 2011 04:31 evanthebouncy wrote:
It's just something you have to deal with and get better at. If you look at zerg when we expand we play the guessing game ALL THE TIME.
Thats why i posted, i want people to think of new types of Toss expands. And that's really not true i played a lot of zerg season 1 and it is very easy to pin the protoss player on either Templar stargate or gateway by scouting the front and noting expo timings.
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On May 19 2011 04:39 Gescom wrote:
Nothing stops you from getting 3-4 gates and expanding gently with a forge and decent sim-city. ?_?
Except for the other response for a zerg seeing a 3gate expand is to drone up super heavily after ling speed and taking a slow nexus will give you a large disadvantage in the midgame.
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larger*
you've always been behind when 3gate expanding vs zerg.
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We all know zerg has scouting issues vs terran but vs toss you should never be surprised early game to an extent that loses you the game or your expansion ALWAYS build a third queen
EX you see a late nexus and low sentry count Conclusion: DT or Stargate Reaction: Build a fourth queen and a spore crawler+drones
EX High sentry count+fast nexus Conclusion: no dts no stargates
you should be doing very little guessing as zerg vs toss and if you use your speedlings to their potential you should prevent ALL scouting untill obs/hallucinate
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Because of this, when I 3 gate expand I drop a forge, and 4th gate down at my natural and always 2 cannons while sending out 2-3 probes periodically to check on the Zerg.
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On May 19 2011 04:44 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 04:39 Gescom wrote:
Nothing stops you from getting 3-4 gates and expanding gently with a forge and decent sim-city. ?_? Except for the other response for a zerg seeing a 3gate expand is to drone up super heavily after ling speed and taking a slow nexus will give you a large disadvantage in the midgame.
The whole game revolves around scouting and reacting! If a zerg is building mass drones you can still chrono two nex worth of probes to keep up. If a zerg is cutting drones then throw down many cannons.
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On May 19 2011 04:58 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 04:44 Jaeger wrote:On May 19 2011 04:39 Gescom wrote:
Nothing stops you from getting 3-4 gates and expanding gently with a forge and decent sim-city. ?_? Except for the other response for a zerg seeing a 3gate expand is to drone up super heavily after ling speed and taking a slow nexus will give you a large disadvantage in the midgame. The whole game revolves around scouting and reacting! If a zerg is building mass drones you can still chrono two nex worth of probes to keep up. If a zerg is cutting drones then throw down many cannons.
Except you can't reliably scout after ling speed until hallucination/stargate tech kicks in which is too late.
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You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job.
when you get void rays;
1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral)
2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in
3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold)
4.You can kill Creep Tumors
5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base
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EPT
