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whersmyspacebar
United States220 Posts
On June 13 2011 00:02 iChau wrote: Lol I hold roach ling all ins with around 6 sentries (only 2 gates iirc) with 2 cannons. The only thing I'm worried about is that I'm kinda doing it blind, but I use the 2 zealot trick to find out what I need to do. what 2zealot trick? | ||
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nick00bot
326 Posts
as you said, the problem with cannons is that you're never quite sure if your opponent is planning to attack and if you get limited scouting (i.e your see 1 roach) you're responding more to the metagame than actual ingame infromation. i just feel that if i see protoss use up 2 zealots for the sole purpose of scouting, the gig is up and its time to drone and take a third instead of attacking. on a side note: whats the 2 zealot trick? | ||
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CodECleaR
United States395 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
It's nothing really special or complicated. Most of a time, when a zerg is using some all-in he will drone really hard. Getting a 2nd zealot in your first warp-in is a good idea because you can use those 2 zealots to scout at the 6:30 minute mark, which is usually when a zerg starts preparing his all-in. A zerg usually can't beat these 2 zealots unless he uses around 9 lings and during the time these 2 zealots move out, you can count the drones, the gas, the ling numbers, see a roach, ,etc. If the zerg attacks the 2 zealots with 9 lings really fast, then you know an all-in is coming. If it takes a while, it is a more delayed all-in which you can hold with 2 cannons. Search up "Felo". Actually here is his wonderful post: + Show Spoiler + I met Roach/Ling-Allins quite often on the ladder and I'm 3Gate-Sentry-Expanding every game (~1000 Points ML). In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway). Now to the important stuff: First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites: 1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings) 2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push. Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar. Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off. But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons. tl;dr-Version: * Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding * Use a group of two zealots to scout * If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots * Stay close to your buildings * Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them * Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
What happens if he indeed has a lot of lings on the map already and just kills your 2 zealots? This is a huge loss. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
good sim city good ff 1 cannon. (you can add 1 when it actually hits you as the attack gets stronger over time- the more ffs you use, the scarier this attack is, and a good zerg won't be losing many of his roaches.) that is all | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
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whereismymind
United Kingdom717 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On June 09 2011 00:44 Micket wrote: Roach Ling aggression didn't work at all in MLG. Sim city is all that's needed, heck MC holds it with 1 gate expand into 3 gate Stargate. he manages to hold it with the absolute best counter protoss has? I am amazed! that said, I think stargate play is one of the best options protoss has right now vs Z. But the problem with all defensive or gimmicky builds like forge, dt, or stargate, is when zerg goes in macro beast mode from the start and stays in macro beast mode, with just some speedlings for scout denial and expansion delaying. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On June 19 2011 09:26 whereismymind wrote: Alejandrisha can you be so kind and link me 2gate expo strategy, since I have problems to find it via search ^3^. Thank you sir. I would like to see some good examples of 2 gate expos as well that are safe  thanks! | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On June 19 2011 09:42 travis wrote: he manages to hold it with the absolute best counter protoss has? I am amazed! that said, I think stargate play is one of the best options protoss has right now vs Z. But the problem with all defensive or gimmicky builds like forge, dt, or stargate, is when zerg goes in macro beast mode from the start and stays in macro beast mode, with just some speedlings for scout denial and expansion delaying. I wouldn't say that Stargate play is the best 'counter' to Roach/ling aggression. All the aggression is required to do is kill off some sentries, and the one Void Ray you will have by then won't be enough to save the Sentries on it's own. The best 'counter' is just good FFs, good simcity and good gamesense. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On June 19 2011 20:02 SeaSwift wrote: I wouldn't say that Stargate play is the best 'counter' to Roach/ling aggression. All the aggression is required to do is kill off some sentries, and the one Void Ray you will have by then won't be enough to save the Sentries on it's own. The best 'counter' is just good FFs, good simcity and good gamesense. You are thinking to small. The point of Stargate play out of Sentry-Expand is not just about defending a potential Roach/Ling-Aggression; its aswell about putting pressure back on Z asap and denying a third base. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Gattaca.usa
131 Posts
I am still having trouble with the roach/ling aggression. Even with a cannon up I am still losing. Am I being too greedy? should i engage or just FF and stall while warping in more units? | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
On June 22 2011 10:53 Gattaca.usa wrote: so can anyone post a good example or build order for a 2 gate expo? I am still having trouble with the roach/ling aggression. Even with a cannon up I am still losing. Am I being too greedy? should i engage or just FF and stall while warping in more units? What i started doing is delaying the expo by ~30sec. When WG finishes I warp in 3 sentries, but then before going down the ramp and putting pylons/forges/gateways/whatever i wait for another warp in of stalkers. After the stalkers are done I move down and expand the normal way. edit: I do a 3gate expo. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
On June 22 2011 10:53 Gattaca.usa wrote: so can anyone post a good example or build order for a 2 gate expo? I am still having trouble with the roach/ling aggression. Even with a cannon up I am still losing. Am I being too greedy? should i engage or just FF and stall while warping in more units? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194376¤tpage=9#176 i posted in there right before the thread died :< | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
a) Move your army out in the open to prevent roaches shooting at your buildings. Do NOT do that! If the zerg all-ins you, wtf who cares if he kills a pylon (unless you produced an Artosis pylon, of course). But if you move your 90% sentry-army out of position, he'll roflpwn you with speedlings, therer are only so many forcefields. b) Build the cannon at the front. You do NOT need a cannon to kill the couple of roaches - you need the cannon to protect your stuff against the speedlings running into your mineral line! If he keeps his speedlings out of your base, then just let him shoot at your buildings while comfortably warping in stuff in a safe position. Reinforcing with slow roaches is just terrible. In other words, he kinda has to move in with his lings if he wants to take you down. At this point you need to forcefield his roaches OUT and take care of the lings. The cannon will prove to be extremely important now, as it will provide the necessary DPS against the lings streaming in. TL; DR: a) Don't fight vs roach/ling in the open. Accept the loss of forge/pylons. b) Build a cannon - but NOT at a place where it can be easily taken out by roaches. One "box/field/square" (how do you call it in English?) below/beside buildings is perfect. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On June 22 2011 10:53 Gattaca.usa wrote: so can anyone post a good example or build order for a 2 gate expo? I am still having trouble with the roach/ling aggression. Even with a cannon up I am still losing. Am I being too greedy? should i engage or just FF and stall while warping in more units? Here's a build i just came up with its a 2gate Stargate expand. I like it a lot on maps where the third is relatively hard to connect with creep so he cant defend it till 2 queens drag their slow ass over there or hydras/spire tech finishes. Here's the replay. Though his profile says platinum, don't be fooled by that. I know him and he is at least of high diamond quality. Plus his 2v2s and 3v3s is high masters if that means anything lol. PvZ 2gate Stargate expand into Void Ray DT Harass ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-218758.jpg) | ||
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
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