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On May 27 2011 05:51 JoonX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already  Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones Could i ask anyone with a replay with good execution for this build on xelnaga caverns. I keep on getting conflicting info on this build. The losira timing from what ive seen hits on 8:00. Other lesser econ version hits at 7:30. I would really want to see a rep for this timing of yours. thanks Edit: I think this is another style of an all in zerg build called a 7RR, although with slight deviations. This isnt the zergling- roach all were talking about and this hits before expo is even planted. this is easily scout-able due to the quick warren and late zergling speed (scouting probes can outmaneuver 4 zerglings with no speed if handled correctly)
I dont see any problem killing the probe with 4 lings and queen only. You throw down the warren only after killing the probe. Even with delays caused by troublesome probes, you should still be able to hit this timing WAY before 7:30. This opening resembles 14gas 14 pool more, which is the standard PvZ opener due to probes blocking expos
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Youre right about the probes; its quite easy to do that however I found a major weakness in this build. I tried my style against this build and I found a major weakness in the attack timing itself - it is too early. The attack comes BEFORE the nexus finishes giving me enough time to cancel the nexus, stall with some FF on my ramp and warp in a round of stalkers and voila easily defended with no major losses. I could go tech up and punish the zerg with this. The losira timing is strong only because it allows the nexus to finish before the attack, limiting the resources available to the toss player for more defence (money goes to the nexus and the probes for the expo).
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On May 26 2011 18:42 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote:
You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job.
when you get void rays;
1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral)
2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in
3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold)
4.You can kill Creep Tumors
5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base Sorry for not reading all 15 pages of this thread, but reading this, i looked into Antimage's void ray expo build. Is that not a more appropriate build given the "metagame" (hope im using the word right) is that Z expects 3 gate sentry builds that they can adjust comfortably and know what to expect (e.g. roach/zergling all ins, corruptors in advance)??
Thoughts anyone??
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On May 27 2011 09:01 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 18:42 bankai wrote:On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote:
You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job.
when you get void rays;
1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral)
2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in
3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold)
4.You can kill Creep Tumors
5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base Sorry for not reading all 15 pages of this thread, but reading this, i looked into Antimage's void ray expo build. Is that not a more appropriate build given the "metagame" (hope im using the word right) is that Z expects 3 gate sentry builds that they can adjust comfortably and know what to expect (e.g. roach/zergling all ins, corruptors in advance)?? Thoughts anyone??
Roach / Ling all-in can destroy that build if it can destroy this build.
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Stargate, DTs, 2gate robo, forge, less sentries, blink, etc.. there are a million different tech options that protoss has, it's kinda like the 1 rax expand in TvP, protoss would just make 2 gates and kill you, now it's more in the 2 rax vs 3 gate area, which is less imbalanced, the 3 gate vs roach ling is similar, zerg waits a tad longer to attack than if toss was going 2 gate expand, and just smashes down the front door if the toss makes any miss micro
Basically you can hard counter them by DT rushing, bu that's a bit blind, you can scout their roach warren timing, see if they're pooling larvae or producing roaches, etc.. etc... basically you can scout it fairly easily, and then just stay on 1 base for a bit longer and get some immortals out, then expand and u'll be ahead, tech to collosus and a-move like usual
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I feel like if toss puts down "enough" cannons to be safe against a roach/ling push toss basically HAS to cut probes. And, even with probe cutting, (assuming the toss and zerg are both playing around a high level) if zerg can manage to wast a couple FFs, since their reinforcements are so much quicker/stronger/larger in number, toss still has to pull probes to stop it. And in the end toss isn't really "ahead" per say. Toss might have a higher probe count by a couple, but toss has 0 aggression possibility, while the zerg still has complete map control, and even after an unsuccessful aggression has the option of either 1. Drone up and go for a 3rd hatch, 2. Mass up again and go for another wave (this wave basically being an all in), 3. drone up and just go for some tech oriented all in (well i guess the only tech oriented all in would be either nydus or mutas)
Toss, in response to those 3 options is basically forced to cannon up again in the front (so many times have i stopped the 1st big roach/ling push, then decided to only remake 2 of my cannons again and got mauled), and try to be somewhat ready for a muta/nydus play (again i've had games where zerg saw me make 5 cannons in the front decided to just make a handful of mutas or nydus and maul my main). While zerg STILL has the option of going for a mid game play by droneing up. A cannon/sentry is SUCH a passive build that it lets zerg do whatever it wants, and if zerg doesn't do a full frontal attack it leaves you way too behind.
A response to a 4 gate push worked because once the 4 gate failed the defender was given multiple options while the 4gateing person isn't.
A response to a 3 rax all in works because once the 3 rax fails, the defender is given options.
In a roach/ling aggression, even if toss defends it using cannon/sentry it's still the zerg with options and toss still playing a guessing game. (Yes i do realize if toss guesses it right toss is given an easy win, but that's still a blind guess toss has to take)
This is why i don't think static defense + sentry build isn't a legitimate response (even if somehow toss was able to scout it and do it as a "response" and not a preemptive thing).
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On May 27 2011 10:34 CatNzHat wrote:
Basically you can hard counter them by DT rushing, bu that's a bit blind, you can scout their roach warren timing, see if they're pooling larvae or producing roaches, etc.. etc...
I hid my DT tech quite well the other day (I know it wasn't spotted) and my zerg opponent got an overseer anyhow to accompany his roach/ling push, lost my DT's immediately and couldn't hold it off. I have a feeling that this will be the case quite often from now on. They have found a strat that is very hard for toss to holdl I'll be interested to see if Toss players can come up with anything that really is a good counter.
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On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones
This build has nothing to do with the actual topic -- it's not the roach/ling build that is being discussed, it's easy to scout that something funky is up, and any good toss will adapt accordingly.
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3 gate expand is simply not a good opening vs zerg anymore in this new patch. Sentries build faster and warpgate take longer. 3 Gate is not optimized for these facts. Either forge fast expand, voidray expand, dt expand or some kind of 1-2 gate expand with a very fast forge is still very viable. People need to drop 3 gate expand allready. Doign a 2 gate expand you basically get the same ammount of sentries as the old 3 gate expand and you do get faster forge or nexus if you're feeling bold. If you do a 2 gate expand you can add the second gate faster and an in base forge slithgly before moving out to take the expo. If he tries to ling all in this or "no drone roach all in" you you just cancel the expo and expand behind a +1 pressure.
The matchup has become more of a scouting and pressure based one where you actually need to inflict some kind of damage or threat to get a good opening. You can't simply make mass sentries and think you'll be fine.
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On May 27 2011 06:45 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:51 JoonX wrote:On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones Could i ask anyone with a replay with good execution for this build on xelnaga caverns. I keep on getting conflicting info on this build. The losira timing from what ive seen hits on 8:00. Other lesser econ version hits at 7:30. I would really want to see a rep for this timing of yours. thanks Edit: I think this is another style of an all in zerg build called a 7RR, although with slight deviations. This isnt the zergling- roach all were talking about and this hits before expo is even planted. this is easily scout-able due to the quick warren and late zergling speed (scouting probes can outmaneuver 4 zerglings with no speed if handled correctly) I dont see any problem killing the probe with 4 lings and queen only. You throw down the warren only after killing the probe. Even with delays caused by troublesome probes, you should still be able to hit this timing WAY before 7:30. This opening resembles 14gas 14 pool more, which is the standard PvZ opener due to probes blocking expos
Any competent protoss will hide a probe on the map and scout for an expo in time to defend this all in. Once you see no natural hatchery you pop stargate + gate + eventual forge and stall your ramp with force fields. The new short sentry build time makes it very very easy to counter this build unless he walks up your ramp before you notice. Chrono boosted sentries comes out ridiculously fast now. Not to mention that if you use any kind of zealot/stalker pressure you will scout his roach all in way close to his base and get a head start on defending the all in even if you didn't scout the empty natural.
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On May 27 2011 07:06 JoonX wrote:
Youre right about the probes; its quite easy to do that however I found a major weakness in this build. I tried my style against this build and I found a major weakness in the attack timing itself - it is too early. The attack comes BEFORE the nexus finishes giving me enough time to cancel the nexus, stall with some FF on my ramp and warp in a round of stalkers and voila easily defended with no major losses. I could go tech up and punish the zerg with this. The losira timing is strong only because it allows the nexus to finish before the attack, limiting the resources available to the toss player for more defence (money goes to the nexus and the probes for the expo).
I don't see how thats a problem actually. Usually if my ling scouts tell me its too early, I will just start droning, the second I notice you are committing to an expand I will make 7 roaches and spam lings. The main strength of this build is not the timing, its that I have a good enough econ to support ling reinforcements from 2 hatches, which will kill even a 4 gateway push. So regardless of you cancelling your nexus, the build will succeed.
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On May 27 2011 18:09 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:45 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 27 2011 05:51 JoonX wrote:On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones Could i ask anyone with a replay with good execution for this build on xelnaga caverns. I keep on getting conflicting info on this build. The losira timing from what ive seen hits on 8:00. Other lesser econ version hits at 7:30. I would really want to see a rep for this timing of yours. thanks Edit: I think this is another style of an all in zerg build called a 7RR, although with slight deviations. This isnt the zergling- roach all were talking about and this hits before expo is even planted. this is easily scout-able due to the quick warren and late zergling speed (scouting probes can outmaneuver 4 zerglings with no speed if handled correctly) I dont see any problem killing the probe with 4 lings and queen only. You throw down the warren only after killing the probe. Even with delays caused by troublesome probes, you should still be able to hit this timing WAY before 7:30. This opening resembles 14gas 14 pool more, which is the standard PvZ opener due to probes blocking expos Any competent protoss will hide a probe on the map and scout for an expo in time to defend this all in. Once you see no natural hatchery you pop stargate + gate + eventual forge and stall your ramp with force fields. The new short sentry build time makes it very very easy to counter this build unless he walks up your ramp before you notice. Chrono boosted sentries comes out ridiculously fast now. Not to mention that if you use any kind of zealot/stalker pressure you will scout his roach all in way close to his base and get a head start on defending the all in even if you didn't scout the empty natural.
What are you talking about? This is a 2 base build, you throw down the natural hatchery around 21 supply (earlier if there is no probe block). As for scouting, its based on how competent your micro is. If you sit the lings below your ramp / opening and then bring your queen up to the edge of the creep, there is no reason for the probe to get through and see your warren...
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On May 27 2011 17:46 sharktopus. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 10:34 CatNzHat wrote:
Basically you can hard counter them by DT rushing, bu that's a bit blind, you can scout their roach warren timing, see if they're pooling larvae or producing roaches, etc.. etc...
I hid my DT tech quite well the other day (I know it wasn't spotted) and my zerg opponent got an overseer anyhow to accompany his roach/ling push, lost my DT's immediately and couldn't hold it off. I have a feeling that this will be the case quite often from now on. They have found a strat that is very hard for toss to holdl I'll be interested to see if Toss players can come up with anything that really is a good counter.
Must have been pretty delayed if he got layer and morphed an overseer.
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Anyone watch Cruncher in the NASL last night? If not go watch it and learn about how to stop this exact thing. It's all about ff placement. Also why did the guy talking about cannons get warned? You absolutely have to delay your expansion in favor of getting that forge. When you expand you need to be able to put down one to two cannons and have 5 or so sentries. This enables you to expand and hold off the zerg pressure even on maps with large naturals. Once you have held the initial push it's pretty much gg as the zerg has invested way to much into lings and roaches.
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On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones
I thought it was just a reactive transition? Like Zerg just opens standard and has something to scout the expansion timing, and once the expansion goes down you start pumping an army and attack them with constant reinforcements until they break. Your build seems pretty heavily set to do a blind rush in the first place. What I've tried (albeit only once but quite effectively) is open the standard 14 pool 16 hatch, with a Roach Warren somewhere in there (this is where I'm praying that he's going 3 gate expo with Sentries). My Zergling at his expansion spots the expansion timing, and I start pumping Zerglings and Roaches as minerals and gas dictates, then push when I have a sizable army, then put in constant reinforcements until I have a clear advantage. He had a significantly less Sentries than I had hoped and far more Stalkers... I was scared because he actually had a big army, but I had to commit and hoped the speedling reinforcements would be enough to tip it in my favor. Surprisingly enough, it was more than enough. I should probably test it out, but if you're 100% sure on when he drops his Nexus, you can probably drop a Roach Warren and a second gas right then and still have enough in time to break him by the time it all finishes.
On May 27 2011 07:06 JoonX wrote:
Youre right about the probes; its quite easy to do that however I found a major weakness in this build. I tried my style against this build and I found a major weakness in the attack timing itself - it is too early. The attack comes BEFORE the nexus finishes giving me enough time to cancel the nexus, stall with some FF on my ramp and warp in a round of stalkers and voila easily defended with no major losses. I could go tech up and punish the zerg with this. The losira timing is strong only because it allows the nexus to finish before the attack, limiting the resources available to the toss player for more defence (money goes to the nexus and the probes for the expo).
You do realize what the point of the Roach/Ling all in is right? To absolutely PUNISH Protoss for expanding without having a massive army, and maintaining an economic lead.
You lost an expansion that is nearly complete (400 minerals held up for a long time) and 100 of that isn't refunded. You'll be on 1 base and he's on 2 base. YOU can't break him and he still has an economic lead! He just pulls back, the speedlings will all make it home safely and you'll snipe some Roaches, but he can make a lot more at home, start Lair Tech, hold off your counterattack, then go again when Roach speed or Hydras finish. On a 1 base economy you won't be able to do much about it. Even if you tech like crazy, you just won't have enough stuff. 1 Colossus with range takes a while to make. If you attack when range finishes, you have 2 Colossus and he'll probably have a crapload of Roaches and Hydras. Not only that, on a 1 base economy you're not going to have many gateway units to protect your Colossi (like maybe a dozen Zealots, which are terrible versus Roach/Hydra). If you drop your Nexus again, he can pump out a round of drones, maybe even drop an expansion, then go back to pushing you. The only time I see 2 base Zerg lose to a 1 base Protoss is when the Zerg did a horrible 1 base all in, failed, and decided to drop an expansion or when Protoss does some crazy 1 base all in that the Zerg isn't ready for (the OLD days of 4 Gate vs Zerg when they didn't know how to most effectively deal with it).
On May 27 2011 10:34 CatNzHat wrote:
Stargate, DTs, 2gate robo, forge, less sentries, blink, etc.. there are a million different tech options that protoss has, it's kinda like the 1 rax expand in TvP, protoss would just make 2 gates and kill you, now it's more in the 2 rax vs 3 gate area, which is less imbalanced, the 3 gate vs roach ling is similar, zerg waits a tad longer to attack than if toss was going 2 gate expand, and just smashes down the front door if the toss makes any miss micro
Basically you can hard counter them by DT rushing, bu that's a bit blind, you can scout their roach warren timing, see if they're pooling larvae or producing roaches, etc.. etc... basically you can scout it fairly easily, and then just stay on 1 base for a bit longer and get some immortals out, then expand and u'll be ahead, tech to collosus and a-move like usual
I'm real iffy on using a Stargate expansion... Maybe after they see you start your harass (because as I said before my understanding of the all in is that they start it the instant they see you drop your Nexus, though I could be wrong), but if you try and drop that expansion too early, they can still do a lot of damage to you... Void Rays have a hell of a time cleaning up Roaches and Lings. I'm thinking 2 Gate Robo is the best "non-cheesy" bet now. Get an Observer to scout, and chronoboost army units as necessary like how it's played versus Terran (since hatch tech means no mobile detection). People do drop a Forge (unless you mean Forge FE) but you have to make 2, maybe 3 cannons blind.
I currently rely on the DT expand build and feel it's the only real way to safely expand at around the same timing (I was satisfied with the economy of a 3 Gate expand but PvZ isn't my best matchup and you can pretty much turtle on 3 base for the deathball and be fine anyways). The great thing about the DT expand is that if they held out on their Lair timing to try and punish my expansion, I can punish them for lack of detection. Sometimes I just get auto-wins from Zergs that either don't know how to be flexible with the all in and/or simply don't know how to scout a Protoss player's options by their Sentry count (the benefits of having Diamond level MMR is quite depressing). And after everything is done, I have map control until he has an Overseer so he can't all in me anymore because if I just block my ramp and get a few DTs out, the damage he can do is really minimal (considering how powerful the attack is otherwise). The reason I like DTs so much right now though is that they open up Templar tech and Blink, which is something I want to try in PvZ. I just find Colossi boring and too easy to counter nowadays. It's super powerful early game, but people are learning to deal with it more efficiently...
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On May 27 2011 23:41 YarNhoj wrote:
Anyone watch Cruncher in the NASL last night? If not go watch it and learn about how to stop this exact thing. It's all about ff placement. Also why did the guy talking about cannons get warned? You absolutely have to delay your expansion in favor of getting that forge. When you expand you need to be able to put down one to two cannons and have 5 or so sentries. This enables you to expand and hold off the zerg pressure even on maps with large naturals. Once you have held the initial push it's pretty much gg as the zerg has invested way to much into lings and roaches.
Just watched that game, and Moman's execution of the attack was really poor. He basically ran in with his ~10 Roaches, got Forcefielded, and then had his Speedlings trickle in two at a time, and die without accomplishing anything. The reason the attack is so good is because it's quite difficult to deal with Roaches AND Speedlings at the same time with just FF. Just Roaches (which is basically what Moman did) aren't a problem at all at that point in the game.
In general, Moman's push was quite weak for how late it came (8:00).
Finally, Cruncher's expo went down quite late (7:00). This was fine in that game, partially because Moman chose to do what he did, but also because Cruncher scouted Moman first, and could delay the expo hatch a fair amount. Had that not happened, and Moman did something like a hatch first, Cruncher's build would have ended up way behind against a Zerg powering drones.
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You lost an expansion that is nearly complete (400 minerals held up for a long time) and 100 of that isn't refunded. You'll be on 1 base and he's on 2 base. YOU can't break him and he still has an economic lead! He just pulls back, the speedlings will all make it home safely and you'll snipe some Roaches, but he can make a lot more at home, start Lair Tech, hold off your counterattack, then go again when Roach speed or Hydras finish. On a 1 base economy you won't be able to do much about it. Even if you tech like crazy, you just won't have enough stuff.
Again, the problem with that timing is is that its just too early. Hits around 6:00. At that time, I just started my expo. its just barely 10% complete. No big loss in time. Not to mention the zerg has barely a 2nd base running since all the larvae are directed to speedling production. I just go to a 3 gate stargate quickly to deal with his army. I think youre misreading my post. That was directed to the guy stating his 7RR all in, not to the losira timing attack build. As for that timing, I found out I can get a hallucinate scouting at 6:45, just enough time to respond with FF stalling, a cannon or 2 at my natural and a round of reinforcements.
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On May 27 2011 22:45 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:09 StarBrift wrote:On May 27 2011 06:45 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 27 2011 05:51 JoonX wrote:On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones Could i ask anyone with a replay with good execution for this build on xelnaga caverns. I keep on getting conflicting info on this build. The losira timing from what ive seen hits on 8:00. Other lesser econ version hits at 7:30. I would really want to see a rep for this timing of yours. thanks Edit: I think this is another style of an all in zerg build called a 7RR, although with slight deviations. This isnt the zergling- roach all were talking about and this hits before expo is even planted. this is easily scout-able due to the quick warren and late zergling speed (scouting probes can outmaneuver 4 zerglings with no speed if handled correctly) I dont see any problem killing the probe with 4 lings and queen only. You throw down the warren only after killing the probe. Even with delays caused by troublesome probes, you should still be able to hit this timing WAY before 7:30. This opening resembles 14gas 14 pool more, which is the standard PvZ opener due to probes blocking expos Any competent protoss will hide a probe on the map and scout for an expo in time to defend this all in. Once you see no natural hatchery you pop stargate + gate + eventual forge and stall your ramp with force fields. The new short sentry build time makes it very very easy to counter this build unless he walks up your ramp before you notice. Chrono boosted sentries comes out ridiculously fast now. Not to mention that if you use any kind of zealot/stalker pressure you will scout his roach all in way close to his base and get a head start on defending the all in even if you didn't scout the empty natural. What are you talking about? This is a 2 base build, you throw down the natural hatchery around 21 supply (earlier if there is no probe block). As for scouting, its based on how competent your micro is. If you sit the lings below your ramp / opening and then bring your queen up to the edge of the creep, there is no reason for the probe to get through and see your warren...
Actually I was adressing the 7RR which is a 1 base build. But that's why I said don't 3 gate expand. The nexus is either too late or too early for what you need. 1gate expand or forge expand allows cannons to be up before the attack comes, you can make a good simcity that prevents roach/ling all ins. If you expand behind voidray or DT you are safe to this kind of all in too if you use your units correctly and wall good. As far as I see we are not in disagreement here. You can't 3 gate expand safely vs this zerg build on a map with an open natural, so don't 3 gate expand.
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I don't get this 'hard counter' that DTs are supposed to be. The Zs I face make an Evo before moving out and if they get swiped near my base, they full retreat to Spore city and take it from there.
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I think its fucking retarded how zerg can make only two units and win the game. I just lost twice on the ladder against this bullshit. Hell, my 6 gate even had time to kick in, and I had 2 cannon just to be safe from this shit. Still he breaks me. I opened up 3 gate btw. I had halucination and scouted him just to see that i'm about to die.
Something needs to be done about current zerg, feels like Protoss vs Zerg and maps where you can't forge FE is an uphill battle and I have flip a coin many times just to break even. 80% of the games I am forced play from behind. You would think that you'd be ahead economically if zergs does this and you survive, but zergs can just pump out drones at a ridiculous rate, its not even funny.
Also, I dont wanna QQ about balance or anything since I am sure there is a way to counter this, but it's just frustrating as hell when zerg can do a push thats so easy to execute and win games by just doing it.
ps. i am 1300 masters, playing alot of gm's etc.
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EPT
