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+ Show Spoiler +The early roach build is very powerful vs protoss, even more so due to the warp gate research nerf.
The nerf means that it is difficult to get out enough units to defend in time.
Zelots dont work because people can kite with the roaches
Sentries, although the forcefields are good the sentries do not do enough damage to have any sort of impact
Stalkers, they are hard to get out in the propper numbers needed to defend against the roaches, also if the zerg player gets a few lings mixed in it makes the stalkers vertually useless.
There is also not enough time to get out immortals, and even if the protoss player does get 1-2 immortals out they can just be focued down by the roaches.
This is imba Here's an idea for your next forge fast expand against any hatch that comes earlier than a pool.
Forge -> Cannon rush.
I'm not saying outright kill the bugger with cannons, just force him to respond to that and probably lose his natural. Then while he's reacting to what you're doing you can safely fast expand yourself. Maybe I'm wrong, i'm only a gold level player. But if the idea is to be economically greedy and get ahead with a fast expand then why not.
How about instead of making more bad posts and responding to/quoting bad posts you read the good posts that are already in the thread
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On May 23 2011 19:42 PopoChampion wrote:
It's not true that you auto win with this build. Protoss can hold it off with good forcefields. You can actually get hallucination out in time to scout for this roach ling attack and you can set up reactionary cannons. They won't be up in time, but they will be very close to being so, and if he rushes in to attack, you can punish him for it. Other options are DT expand and void ray expand.
Professional players aren't complaining about it so I don't see why lesser players should be. You still have a lot of room to improve, so it's better to spend your time doing so.
Perfect forcefields + Great sim-city + Fast reflexes.
I enjoyed reading through this thread. I loved the higher ranked posts as that was what I needed for today. :D
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Canada13407 Posts
On May 25 2011 11:02 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 19:42 PopoChampion wrote:
It's not true that you auto win with this build. Protoss can hold it off with good forcefields. You can actually get hallucination out in time to scout for this roach ling attack and you can set up reactionary cannons. They won't be up in time, but they will be very close to being so, and if he rushes in to attack, you can punish him for it. Other options are DT expand and void ray expand.
Professional players aren't complaining about it so I don't see why lesser players should be. You still have a lot of room to improve, so it's better to spend your time doing so. Perfect forcefields + Great sim-city + Fast reflexes. I enjoyed reading through this thread. I loved the higher ranked posts as that was what I needed for today. :D
Agreed, this thread has been the only reason I win against 3/4 roach ling engagements just after my nat goes up :D
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On May 24 2011 01:25 Stef wrote:Just tried out 2 games going for a robo expand. Please check the replays and see what you think of it. Were the first 2 games i tried this strat out. So it could probably use a lot of perfecting. Would love some comments. Typhon PeaksXel'Naga
This works really well. Playing against the roach ling style presents 2 huge problems for the 1-3 gate expoing protoss:
1.) You could die. (or get too far behind over-investing in cannons)
2.) You won't be able to tech to colossi very quickly because the investment may mean you die.
Getting the robo pre-expansion seems to help solve both problems. Being able to expo relatively safely and have 3 colossi out at 13 minutes in seems really strong. Obv sentry count will be low and zealot count will be high, but that's ok.
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Voidray and DT rushing both suffer from a diminishing effect on your sentrycount, something that's easily scoutable by the speedling pokes. You'll notice Nestea and Losira both dropping spores as soon as they see the sentry count not being where they expect it to be to counter potential stargate or DT expands. They still go through with their regular timing attack, as at worst, the vr/dt will save the expo at the cost of every single sentry the protoss has, and that will cripple the protoss' ability to be offensive with the exception of his vr/dt which is already defended against with spores.
Myself, I've been going gate-robo-gate-forge instead of the standard 3gate opening, getting a fast observer out, then immortals. All chronos on probes. Add gate 3, 4 and 5 to simcity the natural, and add cannons as needed (use that observer to see if he's making an army). If he doesn't roach/ling rush me, I wait for him to take his third or drop significant tech (spire/infestation pit), then I push with 2-3 immortals, 8-9 sentries, rest zealots/stalkers. If I don't end the game right then and there I typically end up in a situation where I'm ahead economically and can just push again in a little bit.
The only thing I've been losing to is basetrading where the natural is too open to block off completely. I had a hard time against a ling/bane composition, but I screwed up the forcefields, and I think I still won against it in the end.
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Best way to counter that ..i think is 2 gate robo...you expand only after you get your first immortal..you should also have about 4-5 zealots 1 sentry 1 -2 stalkers ~6:00 usually if a zerg sees immortal he will go afterwards only lings..so try getting zealots and a 3rd gate if he persists..otherwise establish your expo..and think about a a 3rd at about 10-11:00..as the zerg will most probably try to get his 2nd expo asap as well
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Best way to counter that ..i think is 2 gate robo...you expand only after you get your first immortal..you should also have about 4-5 zealots 1 sentry 1 -2 stalkers ~6:00 usually if a zerg sees immortal he will go afterwards only lings..so try getting zealots and a 3rd gate if he persists..otherwise establish your expo..and think about a a 3rd at about 10-11:00..as the zerg will most probably try to get his 2nd expo asap as well
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So long as you're getting an early Robo, has anyone ever played around with getting an Obs + Warp Prism with 1 Stalker in it as a "Zerg Honesty Squad"? You could go around sniping Creep Tumors + Overlords like a Voidray, and if you see your opponent is building nothing but drones or took a super early third, you could warp in more units at the Prism, do some damage, and still escape with all of them. It seems like the core problem in PvZ (I know it's mine) is having any kind of map presence between the time when Speedlings finish and the natural is established -- that's why people started doing Voidray expands. An early Obs + Prism might have a similar effect.
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On May 19 2011 05:45 accaris wrote:
Wasn't the 3-gate sentry expand designed specifically to be safe against a roach/ling push? Otherwise, what's the point in it? Zerg can't just 1-A into a wall of 3 cannons and expect to automatically win. If they spend a lot of time building roaches instead of droning, they're going to be just as economically disadvantaged as you are.
If it's proven that forcefields cannot hold a roach/ling push (and I'm not totally convinced that they can't,) perhaps a defensive 4-gate should be tried? Delaying your expansion by 1 minute isn't going to end the game for you if your army value is higher early on. Plus, you're better primed to take a 3rd, since you have the defensive advantage of more Stalkers.
You don't understand the problem. First, you make 3 cannons blindly, you are WAY behind. Like faaaar behind.
Second, if you make a 4th gate you have to cut probes to produce off it, so you are WAY behind if he doesn't all in.
This actually really excited me, despite the fact i'm a ptoss ^_^. I love trying to find new builds for a match up because of a problem, best part of the game. Can't wait for the pvz revolution.
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I have been working on 3 gate robo pressure into expand against all races and it has worked out pretty darn well I might say, as for the not knowing when it is going to hit you my suggestion would be scouting, obviously you do it but it isnt required to only scout at certain times, I for instance scout until I know what is going on, I will sacrifice 3-4 probes just to know whats going on and make sure I hold the xel naga towers if they are relevant.
So from here if your probes see a decent amount of roaches and lings then obviously something is about to happen so chrono out those immortals asap and if you dont see a bunch of roaches and lings then get your obs over there asap to find out whats going on. Its really just about scouting till you know what is going on, I have noticed alot of players tend to scout at pre determined times, they send their initial scout, then I wont see one for another few minutes and so on throughout the matchup, but really if you know what is going on you should almost always win. Also dont be afraid to pull probes, after all if you hold, he just lost a bunch of units, is still on hatch tech, hasnt been producing drones, and probably doesnt have much in the way of units to hold a counter attack. So after a hold I will usually scout with my obs see what he has, put pressure on if I can if not I just tech an expand, after all you are on the same base number as the Zerg and ahead tech wise and econ wise so you really can do whatever you want.
O and I dont get many sentries usually, just stalkers with a few zealots and then immortals (this solves the issue of getting the immortal out fast enough because you will have the get your robo up fast and begin immortals production right away) My first immortal is almost always done when they hit with my second typically half way done (I usually just get them in a row then my obs to be safe)
Edit: I'll try to find some replays against Zerg.
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spoiler from last night's gsl:
+ Show Spoiler +tester 2-0ed a zerg (slayers.yugioh) using a stargate expand game 1 and a dt expand game 2. anyone looking for information about either of those builds might want to watch those vods, both of them looked pretty clean. frankly i think tester just outplayed yugioh regardless of build so it might be a little difficult to judge the effectiveness of either based on those games but it is interesting to watch regardless.
the roach ling attack discussed in this thread wasn't employed by yugioh, but to me that was actually more helpful because i know i can hold it with dts; i was interested to see how dt/vr would fare against other builds.
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There are so many threads on early Zerg all-ins (you guys call it aggression, sure) the past weeks. My style is to just get good sim city at my natural with a Forge, Gateway, Pylon, and Nexus, and I never cut my first cannon, doing so is just too greedy, especially with Zergs abusing Roaches in early game too as well.
Personally, on ladder, most Zergs get too aggressive with their Roaches, I feel that they should just try to dance around, and passively try to snipe down the Nexus, as any Stalker count under two should be relatively easy to deal with, especially against players like me that make sim-cities that backfire when trying get in range from a small choke.
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Essentially you can't just 3 gate expand anymore-if zerg sees this he can just do this all in and kill you. You can make it look like your doing something else by getting a stalker after your first zealot. Also Huk goes for a 3gate dark templar expand. This lets him keep his opponent pinned back in his base until he gets his lair up at which point you can hold off such attacks.
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So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked]
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I think if you want to go dt, voidray, or even robo expand, you need to take 2nd gas earlier. You don't necessarily need to mine out of it right away, but I've noticed out of the last 5 times I've faced roach/ling early aggression, 4 times the player gased me.
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I never have trouble vs roach ling all in. And im even or ahead on worker count at a 1200+ master level play some gmaster zergs as well. Stndard 3 gate expo with gates at arounfd 29 and constant chorno on probes gives you a high probe count. Once you throw down expo you make termplar or sg and get either vray phoenix or dark shrine. This makes zerg either make units cancel his third or kill drones. I always 3 gate expo with a 4th gate a forge and 1-2 cannons. If you see like 8 lings poking it means hes droning and you can go kill him with 3 gate pressure. If you see less or more lings he is either going roach or mass ling either way you are ahead. with a wall made of what i told you you get to make probes constantly and take fast third once you hold off aggresion you also can harass or outright kill zerg if they are all ining you. If you are ever having trouble vs zerg watch my stream and what i do. Youll never lose to zerg again. At least in the opening when i dont get caught out of position.
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On May 26 2011 14:37 jackalope1234 wrote:
I never have trouble vs roach ling all in. And im even or ahead on worker count at a 1200+ master level play some gmaster zergs as well. Stndard 3 gate expo with gates at arounfd 29 and constant chorno on probes gives you a high probe count. Once you throw down expo you make termplar or sg and get either vray phoenix or dark shrine. This makes zerg either make units cancel his third or kill drones. I always 3 gate expo with a 4th gate a forge and 1-2 cannons. If you see like 8 lings poking it means hes droning and you can go kill him with 3 gate pressure. If you see less or more lings he is either going roach or mass ling either way you are ahead. with a wall made of what i told you you get to make probes constantly and take fast third once you hold off aggresion you also can harass or outright kill zerg if they are all ining you. If you are ever having trouble vs zerg watch my stream and what i do. Youll never lose to zerg again. At least in the opening when i dont get caught out of position.
Any chance of replays? Or is just stream advertising?
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On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote:
You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job.
when you get void rays;
1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral)
2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in
3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold)
4.You can kill Creep Tumors
5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base
Sorry for not reading all 15 pages of this thread, but reading this, i looked into Antimage's void ray expo build. Is that not a more appropriate build given the "metagame" (hope im using the word right) is that Z expects 3 gate sentry builds that they can adjust comfortably and know what to expect (e.g. roach/zergling all ins, corruptors in advance)??
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On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked]
When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already 
Edit: Build order for your reference...
13 Extractor
15 Pool
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting)
22 Metabolic Boost
22 Overlord
22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary)
21 Roach Warren
20 Roach
22 Roach
24 Roach
26 Roach
28 Roach
30 Roach
32 Roach
34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed)
36 Overlord
Speedlings / Drones
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On May 27 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 11:06 JoonX wrote:
So I was tinkering a bit with my previous 3 gate PVT build and I manage to get a finished WG research at ~ 5:30 and finish my hallucination research at 6:45 exactly (Thank goodness for Chronoboost). Maybe this could help a bit with the scouting dillema vs this all in. I posted a replay although I butchered the end part. Maybe you guys can tinker with it too so we can get a solution against this all in style. Do note that this all in attack can start at 7:30
[url blocked] When I roach ling all in my last roach finishes around 5:45 - 5:50. If you are getting halluc at 6:45 its way way too late. The roaches will be knocking at your forge-step already Edit: Build order for your reference... 13 Extractor 15 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 Zergling 18 Zergling (Prevent any more probe scouting) 22 Metabolic Boost 22 Overlord 22 Hatchery (Can be cancelled if necessary) 21 Roach Warren 20 Roach 22 Roach 24 Roach 26 Roach 28 Roach 30 Roach 32 Roach 34 Queen (Only if hatchery completed) 36 Overlord Speedlings / Drones
Could i ask anyone with a replay with good execution for this build on xelnaga caverns. I keep on getting conflicting info on this build. The losira timing from what ive seen hits on 8:00. Other lesser econ version hits at 7:30. I would really want to see a rep for this timing of yours. thanks
Edit: I think this is another style of an all in zerg build called a 7RR, although with slight deviations. This isnt the zergling- roach all were talking about and this hits before expo is even planted. this is easily scout-able due to the quick warren and late zergling speed (scouting probes can outmaneuver 4 zerglings with no speed if handled correctly)
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